Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part II: ACoK & ASoS

[cade]

The common view of medieval society and politics is that of the contract. Supposedly, the leader and the followers each had reasonably well defined obligations. I don't know a lot about the actual history. I guess that different societies varied in how well they followed this rule. In the Seven Kingdoms, people don't follow it worth a damn. This is very much the rule of men, not of laws, and the men (or occasionally women) are the ones at the top. For the most part, leaders have no actual contractual obligations at all. There are good and bad leaders. None, however, are bound by any sort of fixed law.

Yes, Martin has written very little fixed law in his worldbuilding. He's said he never even considered having lawyers in Westeros. There's little room for debate when all can be decided by the whims of kings and lords. Even many of the characters concerned about justice don't see the inherent injustice of this system, and instead believe it's their duty to uphold it.

Empathy--definitely. Revolutionary spirit--hmm. A revolutionary monarch is a strange sort of being, right? I believe that Dany has probably started a revolution in Essos, more of one than she intended. Her rejection of slavery was emotional, not intellectual. One of the curious criticisms of Dany starts with, "Well, if you're going to be an abolitionist..." When did Dany ever say she was an abolitionist? When did she annunciate a goal of wiping out slavery?

I do not agree with the bolded part. Daenerys Targaryen does a good bit of conflating law with justice. She does many good things. Very often, though, she is acting on the basis of what she feels, not what she understands.

She's conflated some individual laws with justice, as does everyone, but she doesn't conflate the law - all laws - with justice, as evident by her fight against slavery. Where a vast majority in her position would've continued accepting it as law of the land, she quickly realized it's wrong and acted on that belief against her own self-interest. This shows a rare aptitude for revolutionary thinking (or feeling - I agree that she operates more on feeling than logical understanding, as a result of her lack of education) - relative to her time and place. That's why I emphasized she still has a lot to learn. I don't kid myself that she'll learn much of it, because Martin doesn't write fairy tales there have been and will continue being a lot of external factors holding her back, but I think she's already demonstrated she's not a typical member of her class and time.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's in Dany's nature to fit in. Had she grown up in Westeros or anywhere else, I think she'd have challenged injustices that are commonly accepted, just as she did in Essos.

Dany never stated a goal to eradicate slavery everywhere, but it's implicit that she'd like to. She's never had anywhere near the resources to accomplish that task. We haven't even come close to eliminating slavery on Earth circa 2014, where toil an estimated 27 million slaves - generally treated as a very minor news story.

[Parwan]

Yes, Martin has written very little fixed law in his worldbuilding. He's said he never even considered having lawyers in Westeros. There's little room for debate when all can be decided by the whims of kings and lords. Even many of the characters concerned about justice don't see the inherent injustice of this system, and instead believe it's their duty to uphold it.

She's conflated some individual laws with justice, as does everyone, but she doesn't conflate the law - all laws - with justice, as evident by her fight against slavery. Where a vast majority in her position would've continued accepting it as law of the land, she quickly realized it's wrong and acted on that belief against her own self-interest. This shows a rare aptitude for revolutionary thinking (or feeling - I agree that she operates more on feeling than logical understanding, as a result of her lack of education) - relative to her time and place. That's why I emphasized she still has a lot to learn. I don't kid myself that she'll learn much of it, because Martin doesn't write fairy tales there have been and will continue being a lot of external factors holding her back, but I think she's already demonstrated she's not a typical member of her class and time.

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's in Dany's nature to fit in. Had she grown up in Westeros or anywhere else, I think she'd have challenged injustices that are commonly accepted, just as she did in Essos.

Dany never stated a goal to eradicate slavery everywhere, but it's implicit that she'd like to. She's never had anywhere near the resources to accomplish that task. We haven't even come close to eliminating slavery on Earth circa 2014, where toil an estimated 27 million slaves - generally treated as a very minor news story.

It appears to me that some of the disagreement between us is a matter of definition and detail. Some of it is a matter of the complexity of the story.

Take the law. There are laws in Westeros and Essos, no doubt about that. But what concept of "law" is there? Things are organized in a top-down manner. That's what you'd expect in the sort of fantasy-midieval setting that is common in this type of story. The phrase "divine right of kings" does not occur. Indeed, that is not the concept of rule. We do, however, have thinking that appears to be rather theological in an important way. Law just is not a thing in itself. You have a good and proper person who is absolutely supposed to be on the throne. You have lords who are supposed to be the rulers of their lands. Then things "flow" from there. It's a sort of "God's in his heaven, all's right with the world" view of propriety and justice. Thus the rule of succession isn't only important; it is a transcendent principle. Treason is an abomination. This is Dany's thinking when she makes claims like the one that Robert did no justice. This, to her, has to be true. How could it be otherwise? The amount of empiricism here is close to zero. Dany doesn't look at Robert's decisions or evaluate how various problems of the lords and commoners have been handled. There's no need for that. It follows from basic principles that traitors and usurpers cannot do justice.

Who else in the Seven Kingdoms thinks this way? Pretty much everyone. A good guy like Eddard Stark can claim that there is no choice in the matter of choosing a new king. Now, the deck is somewhat stacked, because the fellow arguing against Stannis is not a man of good character. I don't think that's terribly important. Had the case against the Lord of Dragonstone been even better and made by a more decent man than Littlefinger, Lord Stark might have had some qualms and difficulties. I believe, however, that he would have made the same decision. Everything depends on getting the right person into the right position. Blood and inheritance are paramount. Justice (and probably all other good things) somehow "flows" from this. I don't say that no one in the 7K has opinions which run counter to the central tendency. Such thoughts, unfortunately, are pretty dispersed and weak.

Daenerys quickly realized that slavery was wrong? Not in terms of the entire story. Her thinking and feelings evolved over time. It's true that she was revolted by the way the Unsullied are created. She quickly turned against this process, and this completed her rejection of slavery.

[SeanF]

Even if we accept that Kings and Lords can make the law up as they go along, there must be some kind of legal code.

Westeros has a Master of Laws. There must be rules dealing with inheritance, ownership of land, shipping, commercial contracts, etc. and the disputes that arise from these. Perhaps the Maesters and Septons also function as lawyers.

[The Sleeper]

@ Parwan. While there may be no formal contractual obligations, I do think there are some deifnite expectations as to how rulers are supposed to act. They are supposed to safeguard and guarantee order and welfare for their subjects. Since feudalism is basically like a pyramid scheme those expectations are influenced by what tier one occupies with those at the lowere tier "praying for rain and healthy children" and those higher up in the food chain expect the monarch to safeguard or at least align with those interests which on a fundamental level are not different from those of those below them, that is security in their power and wealth. Since the monarch relies on his underlings to enforce his or her will down the chain, he/she needs to keep those underlings compliant. The way this is achieved is through the concepts of honor and justice, which are also ultimately the responsibility of the monarch as well. Since the monarch is the source of all that in theory the monarch can do no wrong, but in practice Aerys destroyed or alienated the very people that kept him in power starting with Tywin. At the very least the monarch must maintain the illusion of being just and honorable to maintain or to keep some people happy so that they in turn will help him force the rest into compliance. In either case there are obligations to be fulfilled and the times it works, it does on a combination of the two, which if you discount the window dressing it comes down to the same thing.

Failing that the monarch must fall back to the "grace of god concept", a quasi-religious or straightforward religious belief that this is way things are or should be and it msut be strong enough to induce to people to act on occasion against their own self interest. This understandably has its limits and is progressively less effective up the tier. It also makes the regime look less like feudalism and more like absolute monarchies of previous era, although some such belief (not necessarily religious, but in the "order of things") is fundamental in getting the system up and running (any system really, not just feudalism). Targaryens had an edge on that. Their "grace of god" was manifest as living, firebreathing instruments of destruction: the dragons and had to rely far less on the social contract than they should. One could argue that the unification of Westeros would not be possible without it. Still the successful ones fulfilled their social contract. They rode on the faith the dragons vested them with for a century and a half until it clashed directly with the respective "graces" of the old jouses of Westeros and collapsed without dragons to back them up.

Where does that leave Dany? Well, we have heard it from the horses mouth: Dany has expressed having the romantic view of the feudalist pyramid back in AGOT, a view that only one who has never had any actual contact with it can have. Also whether she realizes it or not through her dragons she is a revival of the perceived superhuman Targaryrens who conquered an eniter continent. Having shouldered the Targaryen legacy and with the birth of the dragons and her experiences she transitions form someone who is witness to someone which the "order of things" is not only something that automatically places on top, but something for her to shape.

[Ragnorak]

Nice work, Patrick.

There's a lot of important stuff here, which Patrick did a nice job of capturing, but I'd like to take a closer look at the narrow issue of happiness

Yet even so, as she stood upon the forecastle watching her dragons chase each other across a cloudless blue sky, Daenerys Targaryen was as happy as she could ever remember being.

What is it about her current circumstances that make Dany so happy?

I think freedom is certainly up there She's free of the politics, threats and demands of Qarth. There's a certain sense of freedom associated with the sea as well. She also feels quite safe and protected as her responses to Jorah's assessments on potential threats indicate. She's identifying herself in the role of mother with her dragons and watching them learn and begin to grow into adulthood seems a source of joy. Freedom, safety, a maternal role, a love of the sea, and maybe a certain degree of a carefree lifestyle. Arstan, Strong Belwas, and her belief in Illyrio's intentions also point toward having friends or allies she can trust as something that may be related to happiness for Dany too.

She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she’d watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. “You are blood of the dragon,” he had screamed at her. “A dragon, not some smelly fish.”

He was a fool about that, and so much else, Dany thought. If he had been wiser and more patient, it would be him sailing west to take the throne that was his by rights. Viserys had been stupid and vicious, she had come to realize, yet sometimes she missed him all the same. Not the cruel weak man he had become by the end, but the brother who had sometimes let her creep into his bed, the boy who told her tales of the Seven Kingdoms, and talked of how much better their lives would be once he claimed his crown.

Twice she references her love of stories-- once with the sailors and again when she recalls Viserys. At the moment Dany is living a bit of a story of her own. Her happiness here while experiencing a story is rare if not unique. The Stark children all have their fond wishes of story-like adventure rapidly crushed. Jon's dreams of a ranging are quickly soured by the dreary and mundane reality of a the daily march from abandoned village to village. Sam explicitly recalls how he dreamed of travelling to Braavos and how miserable the reality is compared to his story-like imaginings. Here we see Dany enjoying them in the moment.

I think there's a metaphor for Dany's happiness in the sailor's wrestling with the green sail in the rising gale. I don't quite have a good explanation yet though. The love of songs and stories strikes me as important. Back at her wedding she really only liked three gifts-- her eggs, her Silver which represented freedom, and Jorah's book of stories. It says a lot about her priorities.

There is somewhat of a subtext of humility and forgoing leadership here as well. Dany thinks of being a sailor and not a captain. She loves feeling small and free which runs counter to the feelings of leadership we see in Robert Baratheon, Tyrion as Hand, Jon as LC (where imprisonment and cage symbolism or quite prominent) and Dany herself later in Meereen. Dany enjoys the kiss she gets from Jorah. Setting aside issues of appropriateness, Dany frames the issue in her head as woman vs. queen. She objects to being called "Daenarys" and insists on "Your Grace." That she enjoyed the kiss makes the way she rejects it a moment of queenship interfering with her personal wants and desires on a certain level indifferent to the lines Jorah crossed.

Dany is also far friendlier, accessible and down to earth here compared to her later time in Meereen. Some of that is normal compared to her relative change in leadership burdens and responsibility but it is noteworthy and the contrast makes her appear very humble here compared to her time in Meereen later. She pats the bed to offer Jorah a seat which is a gesture of friendship and not one of queen and advisor or supplicant. She has a much more personal tone with her handmaidens here compared to the more curt orders she issues later in Meereen. This isn't a criticism (and if it were it would be more of her demeanor now which fails to draw the needed lines for a chain of command.) Reflecting specifically on Dany's happiness I think she is happier interacting with people in the manner she does here than in the more leadership role appropriate fashion she adopts in Meereen.

Dany also has her epiphany about Viserys while contemplating something she wanted that made her happy that was in contrast with his wants and goals. Her intentions of claiming the Iron Throne are really something she has inherited from Viserys and not really something born of her own dreams and wishes. Her reflection on wanting to be a sailor is among the first cracks in separating Viserys' plan for her from her own. Her happiness takes place while the lack of wind has stranded her in her own wishes of sailing and the sea while delaying the advancement towards Viserys' desire for the Iron Throne.

She tried to imagine what it would feel like, when she first caught sight of the land she was born to rule. It will be as fair a shore as I have ever seen, I know it. How could it be otherwise?

What Dany will think of Westeros when she first lays eyes on it is an interesting point to ponder. It will be this dream from Viserys made real and I suspect it will be a disappointment. Tyrion in particular notes how even Kings Landing pales compared to a suburb of Volantis and Dany's comparative perspective is the more glorious Free Cities. Where Dany lands might matter too. Dragonstone would have a personal meaning on many levels but if she were to land at the first Andal site in the Vale and witness the mighty fortress of House Baelish surrounded by fields of sheep dung she'll likely be rather disillusioned.

Dany's landing in Westeros will be a seminal moment in her story and for her future happiness. Aemon noted to Jon:

The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”

It is likely that Dany will have to forgo happiness to rule or forgo ruling for happiness. This chapter, possibly more than any other she has, lays the foundation for the ruling vs. happiness choice she will probably have to confront at some point.

[Mithras]

Viserys had been stupid and vicious, she had come to realize, yet sometimes she missed him all the same. Not the cruel weak man he had become by the end, but the brother who had sometimes let her creep into his bed, the boy who told her tales of the Seven Kingdoms, and talked of how much better their lives would be once he claimed his crown.

“What do the smallfolk say of Renly’s death?”

“They grieve. Your brother was well loved.”

“Fools love a fool,” grumbled Stannis, “but I grieve for him as well. For the boy he was, not the man he grew to be.”

Another thing shared by Dany and Stannis.

[Parwan]

Even if we accept that Kings and Lords can make the law up as they go along, there must be some kind of legal code.

Westeros has a Master of Laws. There must be rules dealing with inheritance, ownership of land, shipping, commercial contracts, etc. and the disputes that arise from these. Perhaps the Maesters and Septons also function as lawyers.

There is a Master of Laws. Right off hand, do any of you remember his name? He isn't very important in the story. I don't think he is very important in Westeros. In ACoK, we have Varys and Tyrion going through some in camera procedures. One of these fellows is arguably the biggest traitor in the books. The other will be a kinslayer. All kinds of decisions are made; the Master of Laws is nowhere to be seen. People are "convicted" or "acquitted" of things. Not only is there no hint of a trial, none of the men involved is even aware that he has been "charged." Deem will be thrown overboard. Likely enough, the sailors who will perform this action won't know that the man is supposed to be some kind of criminal. They'll just follow the captain's orders. Okay, Deem is a bad guy. That's not the point.

I'm sure there are written laws of some sort. For certain everyday matters, these laws probably have some importance. However, there is nothing like a constitution, and I see no tendency toward the idea of a constitution. As I said, on a fundamental basis, we have the rule of men. The central issue is the ruler, not a system of rules. I don't think that the same can be said for all medieval systems in the real world.

@ Parwan. While there may be no formal contractual obligations, I do think there are some deifnite expectations as to how rulers are supposed to act. They are supposed to safeguard and guarantee order and welfare for their subjects. Since feudalism is basically like a pyramid scheme those expectations are influenced by what tier one occupies with those at the lowere tier "praying for rain and healthy children" and those higher up in the food chain expect the monarch to safeguard or at least align with those interests which on a fundamental level are not different from those of those below them, that is security in their power and wealth. Since the monarch relies on his underlings to enforce his or her will down the chain, he/she needs to keep those underlings compliant. The way this is achieved is through the concepts of honor and justice, which are also ultimately the responsibility of the monarch as well. Since the monarch is the source of all that in theory the monarch can do no wrong, but in practice Aerys destroyed or alienated the very people that kept him in power starting with Tywin. At the very least the monarch must maintain the illusion of being just and honorable to maintain or to keep some people happy so that they in turn will help him force the rest into compliance. In either case there are obligations to be fulfilled and the times it works, it does on a combination of the two, which if you discount the window dressing it comes down to the same thing.

...

Where does that leave Dany? Well, we have heard it from the horses mouth: Dany has expressed having the romantic view of the feudalist pyramid back in AGOT, a view that only one who has never had any actual contact with it can have. Also whether she realizes it or not through her dragons she is a revival of the perceived superhuman Targaryrens who conquered an eniter continent. Having shouldered the Targaryen legacy and with the birth of the dragons and her experiences she transitions form someone who is witness to someone which the "order of things" is not only something that automatically places on top, but something for her to shape.

None of this provides a challenge to my basic points. Sure, there are all kinds of expectations. Monarchs and lords are supposed to act in a certain way. Even Joff mouths platitudes about these things. What actual contractual obligations do the leaders have? If they do not perform up to standards, what happens? I say that the answers are "none" and "nothing." There does not even appear to be any sort of theory expressing the idea that a monarch might be removed for cause. In a thread entitled "A Few Good Words for the Dothraki," I expressed things this way: At least among the nomads, a leader has to be qualified to lead, and he has to maintain this ability, or no one will follow him. "A khal who cannot ride is no khal." There is no such principle in the Seven Kingdoms. I see only minor and unsuccessful attempts to change this fact.

Dany is magical. I put forth this as a central contention of mine early in the first thread of the re-read project. That makes her stand out. I say that her fundamental theory of governance, however, is the same as just about everyone else's in the 7K.

[cade]

It appears to me that some of the disagreement between us is a matter of definition and detail. Some of it is a matter of the complexity of the story.

Take the law. There are laws in Westeros and Essos, no doubt about that. But what concept of "law" is there? Things are organized in a top-down manner. That's what you'd expect in the sort of fantasy-midieval setting that is common in this type of story. The phrase "divine right of kings" does not occur. Indeed, that is not the concept of rule. We do, however, have thinking that appears to be rather theological in an important way. Law just is not a thing in itself. You have a good and proper person who is absolutely supposed to be on the throne. You have lords who are supposed to be the rulers of their lands. Then things "flow" from there. It's a sort of "God's in his heaven, all's right with the world" view of propriety and justice. Thus the rule of succession isn't only important; it is a transcendent principle. Treason is an abomination. This is Dany's thinking when she makes claims like the one that Robert did no justice. This, to her, has to be true. How could it be otherwise? The amount of empiricism here is close to zero. Dany doesn't look at Robert's decisions or evaluate how various problems of the lords and commoners have been handled. There's no need for that. It follows from basic principles that traitors and usurpers cannot do justice.

Who else in the Seven Kingdoms thinks this way? Pretty much everyone.

Yes, that's one of many things I was referring to in recognizing she still has a lot to learn. As you note, almost everyone thinks this way. As the daughter of a deposed king and one of the last two surviving descendants of a dynasty that ruled for nearly 300 years, Dany far more than anyone but Viserys has been predisposed to believe in monarchy. She was raised by her brother to feel a tremendous burden to avenge her family and restore its legacy. Then she became the last Targaryen. That's when she started pressing Drogo to overthrow her father's usurper. Then she miraculously became mother of dragons, an extinct species that was the entire foundation of her family's dynasty. It would be incredibly difficult for someone in Dany's shoes not to feel duty-bound and even destined to retake the monarchy her family had ruled and founded. Dany feeling bound to destiny has been further reinforced by the House of the Undying and her own prophetic dreams.

Dany set aside the duty she was indoctrinated with to fight a fundamental, widely accepted law of the land she was in. This tells me that wherever she goes, she'll try to be an agent of change, not fit in.

Daenerys quickly realized that slavery was wrong? Not in terms of the entire story. Her thinking and feelings evolved over time. It's true that she was revolted by the way the Unsullied are created. She quickly turned against this process, and this completed her rejection of slavery.

Realizing as a child that something is wrong when society and everyone around you tells you it's right is quick, imo. At 14, she freed all the slaves of her husband's khalasar as soon as she had power. Less than a year later, she was invading cities to free slaves against her own self-interest.

[The Sleeper]

None of this provides a challenge to my basic points. Sure, there are all kinds of expectations. Monarchs and lords are supposed to act in a certain way. Even Joff mouths platitudes about these things. What actual contractual obligations do the leaders have? If they do not perform up to standards, what happens? I say that the answers are "none" and "nothing." There does not even appear to be any sort of theory expressing the idea that a monarch might be removed for cause. In a thread entitled "A Few Good Words for the Dothraki," I expressed things this way: At least among the nomads, a leader has to be qualified to lead, and he has to maintain this ability, or no one will follow him. "A khal who cannot ride is no khal." There is no such principle in the Seven Kingdoms. I see only minor and unsuccessful attempts to change this fact.

Dany is magical. I put forth this as a central contention of mine early in the first thread of the re-read project. That makes her stand out. I say that her fundamental theory of governance, however, is the same as just about everyone else's in the 7K.

What happens is that they cease to be kings. Aerys was killed by his own kingsguard, Robert was murdered by his own queen, Joffrey was murdered at his own wedding. Not that it is a sure-fire thing, but it does create pressure and problems that need to be addressed. It may not even affect a single monarch, but his enitre administration or may plague his or her successors, but it will need to be alleviated or dealt with at some point. Unless one has dragons.

During the course of the series the problem is far greater than who sits on the Iron Throne. In effect the Seven kingdoms have ceised to be, as the Iron Throne effectively rules fewer than half the kingdoms and the two main houses supporting it are essentially at war with each other. There doesn't seem to be any way to return to the previous situation.

As for Dany's theory of governance, she simply does not have one apart of some vague ideas from an outsiders perspective. And with dragons at her side and her fanatical folowing she won't have to learn.

[SeanF]

Nice work, Patrick.

I think there's a metaphor for Dany's happiness in the sailor's wrestling with the green sail in the rising gale. I don't quite have a good explanation yet though. The love of songs and stories strikes me as important. Back at her wedding she really only liked three gifts-- her eggs, her Silver which represented freedom, and Jorah's book of stories. It says a lot about her priorities........

Dany's landing in Westeros will be a seminal moment in her story and for her future happiness. Aemon noted to Jon:-

It is likely that Dany will have to forgo happiness to rule or forgo ruling for happiness. This chapter, possibly more than any other she has, lays the foundation for the ruling vs. happiness choice she will probably have to confront at some point.

Dany isn't very good at ruling, and she doesn't enjoy it. If she did win the IT, I could imagine her echoing Robert's comment by saying she never felt more alive than when she was fighting for the IT, and never more dead than when she was sitting on it. Robert dreams of earning his living as a sellsword; she dreams of living with Daario.

But, really that ship sailed when she hatched the dragon eggs. She could have sold them, and retired into wealthy obscurity in some part of Essos. But, she hatched them instead, with consequences that reverberated around the world. She has a host of enemies, followers, dubious allies, and retiring into private life isn't an option any more.

[Ragnorak]

Dany isn't very good at ruling, and she doesn't enjoy it. If she did win the IT, I could imagine her echoing Robert's comment by saying she never felt more alive than when she was fighting for the IT, and never more dead than when she was sitting on it. Robert dreams of earning his living as a sellsword; she dreams of living with Daario.

But, really that ship sailed when she hatched the dragon eggs. She could have sold them, and retired into wealthy obscurity in some part of Essos. But, she hatched them instead, with consequences that reverberated around the world. She has a host of enemies, followers, dubious allies, and retiring into private life isn't an option any more.

I personally agree that Dany doesn't do a good job in Meereen, but we aren't there yet. She currently "rules" over a small group of a hundred or so people and I do think she does a good job here. Her role is much more like the matriarch of a large family now than that of a ruler. You can know everyone's name and personality in a group this small and it is much more of a family dynamic than one of removed administration. She is currently more a clan mother than a queen in practice. From that perspective she does well. The way she mitigates the tension between Barristan and Jorah is a good example though again it falls more in line with a family dispute than a political one.

Looking forward at an oversimplified view of her eventual landing in Westeros it seems we'll have a Dance with Dragons 2.0 between Dany and Aegon. That still leaves the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, Stannis, the Vale and the North as outside the immediately likely participants in that conflict. So if a Dany begins to lose to an Aegon, she has the potential to ally with a third faction and step down from a position as "ruler" in exchange for what would likely be a House which is closer to her current family matriarch role. (If she wins then she wins and rules.) So to borrow you phrase, that ship may return to port again. Bloodraven seems to be backing the Starks and Jon with a Targaryen heritage which also implies he may well be supportive of Dany as well. If Aegon is a Blackfyre a Bloodraven's Dany support is consistent with his past track record. Even assuming that Bloodraven is behind Jon based on his pro-Stark activities he is not likely to abandon Dany the way Varys and Illyrio did when she was sent to die on the Dothraki Sea. So a Northern/Dany alliance at some point isn't a stretch even if it isn't a guaranteed outcome and that could include the Vale if Sansa succeeds in wielding some kind of power there. There are multiple possibilities where Dany could have the opportunity to throw in with another faction and forgo ruling in terms of seeking to rule as queen including a marriage where she chooses to let a king rule and not herself while retaining the title of queen.

The specific outcome isn't necessarily what's important here from the perspective of Dany's happiness. What makes Dany happy and her journey to discover that and separate her own dreams from those she's inherited from Viserys seems important. How well she learns what it is she truly wants and how that plays into her choice to pursue ruling despite the personal costs of unhappiness or to forgo ruling for a chance at happiness seems to be developing as an underlying theme even now buried underneath the surface expectations of her immediate return to Westeros.

ETA So as not to step on Chapter 2.

@Maester of Ice and Fire: Agreed especially on the human heart in conflict.

Also as a precautionary note regarding Dany and ruling: She hasn't made a single choice or decision regarding ruling post-Meereen or post her long walk epiphany. Meereen was a choice seeing post-Astapor so we have yet to see what lessons or choices are born of post-Meereen Dany which will also include the events of the Battle of Meereen yet to play out much less have a known outcome. Lots can happen in two books. Think of Jaime at the end of GoT and the end of SoS.

[Annara Snow]

There is a Master of Laws. Right off hand, do any of you remember his name? He isn't very important in the story. I don't think he is very important in Westeros. In ACoK, we have Varys and Tyrion going through some in camera procedures. One of these fellows is arguably the biggest traitor in the books. The other will be a kinslayer. All kinds of decisions are made; the Master of Laws is nowhere to be seen. People are "convicted" or "acquitted" of things. Not only is there no hint of a trial, none of the men involved is even aware that he has been "charged." Deem will be thrown overboard. Likely enough, the sailors who will perform this action won't know that the man is supposed to be some kind of criminal. They'll just follow the captain's orders. Okay, Deem is a bad guy. That's not the point.

.

Renly Baratheon. :lol:

Which is very ironic, that the guy who essentially said: "Screw the laws of succession" was the Master of Laws under Robert. Seriously though, it supports what you said - the title seems to be conferred among family members or cronies but doesn't seem to mean much. I doubt that Renly ever bothered much with the law. (Except maybe to find grounds on which Robert could set Cersei aside and marry Margaery?)

And you were also right that I wasn't able to remember anyone else who was the Master of Laws after Renly and had to check the appendixes and the ASOAIF wiki. Apparently, Kevan was the Master of Laws under Joffrey, despite not even being in KL for most of his reign. Kevan was the MOL in absentia just as Tywin was the Hand, but while Tywin made Tyrion his acting Hand, it seems that nobody ever bothered to name an acting Master of Laws, which further proves that the position isn't deemed too important.

Cersei made Orton Merryweather the MOL (or Judiciar) in her small council; after Kevan and Mace Tyrell got rid of Cersei's cronies, they appointed Randyll Tarly as MOL/Judiciar. Tarly is a relatively important character though with some power, so this position may still prove important (also, gods help us if he gets to decide about legal matters).

What happens is that they cease to be kings. Aerys was killed by his own kingsguard, Robert was murdered by his own queen, Joffrey was murdered at his own wedding. Not that it is a sure-fire thing, but it does create pressure and problems that need to be addressed. It may not even affect a single monarch, but his enitre administration or may plague his or her successors, but it will need to be alleviated or dealt with at some point. Unless one has dragons.

Indeed, kingslaying seems to be the preferred, or rather, the only method of deposing monarchs in Westeros.

Dany isn't very good at ruling, and she doesn't enjoy it. If she did win the IT, I could imagine her echoing Robert's comment by saying she never felt more alive than when she was fighting for the IT, and never more dead than when she was sitting on it. Robert dreams of earning his living as a sellsword; she dreams of living with Daario.

But, really that ship sailed when she hatched the dragon eggs. She could have sold them, and retired into wealthy obscurity in some part of Essos. But, she hatched them instead, with consequences that reverberated around the world. She has a host of enemies, followers, dubious allies, and retiring into private life isn't an option any more.

But that begs the question, is there anyone in ASOAIF who would both enjoy being the monarch on the IT and would be good at ruling?

Renly would have probably enjoyed at first... but would he be good at it, and furthermore, would he still like it when he would face real problems? He was good at winning friends, so that's something in his favor, but other than that? Maybe he would have managed to still be popular and deflect every dissatisfaction to his Hand and small council, but it's questionable whether he would have actually been a good ruler rather than just a great figurehead/public figure. Anyway, he's dead now.

Stannis... I'll leave out the debate on whether he would be good at ruling the Seven Kingdoms; but as far as enjoying it goes, well, he certainly wants the throne, but if you believe what he says, he wants it because he thinks it's his duty and birthright (similarly as Dany) not because he would enjoy it.

Most of the people who enjoyed the power that comes from it the most are those who should be kept as far away from it as possible, like Joffrey or Cersei. And then there's Euron... enough said.

I suppose perhaps Margaery and the Tyrells could be good at ruling while also enjoying it, although none of them can be the ruling monarch in their own right. I say this grudgingly, since I just don't trust them or like them that much.

And of course, according to Varys, Aegon is the "ideal" king, but I have seen nothing in the way of evidence for that claim; he just seems to be a rash, easily manipulated young man.

Maester Aemon is one of those "what if?" stories; I imagine he must have wondered at times how things would have turned out if he had actually accepted the throne. Then again... maybe he would have gone on to rule wisely in peace until his old age, but on the other hand, maybe he only got to live to the age of 100 because he was far away from the world of politics and power; for all we know, maybe he would have been poisoned by some power-greedy relative or politician.

[MoIaF]

Daenerys II ASoS

The Making of the Unsullied

SUMMARY

At the end of the last chapter Ser Jorah convinced Dany to go to Astapor and purchase an army of slaves. We being the chapter with Dany at the Plaza of Pride where she is observing a statue of the Harpy; Kraznys mo Nakloz one of the Good Masters of Astapor is giving her a “tour” of the Unsullied. Kraznys speaks to Dany with disdain because he believes she does not understand what he is saying, his translator (Missandei) softens the Good Masters words as she translates them. Dany had chosen on the advice of Ser Jorah not to speak High Valyria, she feigns ignorance when the Good Master speaks. Arstan Whitebeard (Ser Barristan) has accompanied her to inspect the Unsullied.

Kraznys begins to show Dany why the Unsullied are so sought after, he has had them standing in place for a day and a half with neither food nor water. Dany notes that the Unsullied seem to come from every region in Essos, including Dothraki, Lhazerene, Qarth, and Summer Islander amongst other. Kraznys shows them how immune to pain they are by cutting the nipple off of one of the Unsullied and goes on to describe how the process and training of the Unsullied. Hearing this Arstan objects to the methods of their training but also to having a slave army. He speaks to Dany about Westeros laws against slaver and how having a slave army would hinder her conquest of Westeros.

After hearing how the Unsullied are made Dany has heard enough and decides to go back to her ship to ponder whether or not to purchase them. While on their way back to the ship Arstan once again voices his objection to purchasing the Unsullied when Dany asks him for his advice. As they continue to travel towards her ships Dany recalls Ser Jorah’s kiss, she is still offended by what happen, however, his kiss seem to have woken up her intimate desires. She recalls that the previous night while masturbating Irri woke up and caught her and decided to help her pleasure herself.

Once back on the ship Dany is furious at both what she saw of the Unsullied and at Ser Jorah. She slaps him when she sees him and reproaches him for advising her to come to this city which she calls a vile sty. Later, Ser Jorah discusses the Unsullied with Dany and the need for an army at all cost. The conversation ends with Ser Jorah speaking of how even though Rhaegar had honor, Rhaegar still died.

OBSERVATION

• It high ironic that the symbol of the Ghiscari the Harpy has laying at her feet chains with the manacles open and yet they are as a people the biggest slavers in their world.
  
• The conversation / translation of Kraznys is comically perverse. He’s so over the top with his behavior and the making of the Unsullied. However, I’ve read and watch true crime drama and people can be that awful. It’s not wholly unrealistic.
  
• When speaking to Dany, Ser Jorah mentions “There was no higher honor than to receive your knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone.” Sad, but it was Rhaegar who knighted Gregor Clegane.
  
• Dany makes it clear that she does not mind honest council, however, it should be done in private. Publicly disagreeing with your Queen undermines her and her position.
  
• When Jhogo is cracking his whip to make way for Dany’s litter, Dany asks him to stop saying that these “These bricks have heard too much of the sound of whips.”
  
• While masturbating one of Dany’s dragon (Drogon) scrammed out as she found some pleasure.
  
• Some foreshadowing of events in Meereen: “And Drogon made to escape when the slaver men came to see them.”
  

ANALYSIS

The Harpy

We are introduces for the first time to the Harpy, she is described as thus:

“Twenty feet tall she reared. She had a woman’s face, with gilded hair, ivory eyes, and pointed ivory teeth. Water gushed yellow from her heavy breasts. But in place of arms she had the wings of a bat or a dragon, her legs were the legs of an eagle, and behind she wore a scorpion’s curled and venomous tail.”

Dany recalls how five thousand years earlier the Ghis had fallen to the might of the Valyrian empire and now they were a shadow of their past glory. The old Ghis were mostly all gone, including their old language and now they spoke a bastardize version of High Valyrian. I can imagine that some of the disdain Kraznys feels towards Dany might be related to her being Valyrian. Valyria was gone now but some part of Ghis survived this makes Kraznys feel superior.

The Making of the Unsullied

Poster Winter’s Knight once calculated how many children died to make the batch of 8,600 Unsullied Dany wanted to purchase:

“Now, in comparison, we'll take the Unsullied.

We'll assume that they have one new batch every year. Dany's batch is 8,600.

We're told that only one third of the boys survive training. Ergo, 17,200 boys died from Dany's batch.

Which means that the total number of boys who survived being cut (minus the number who were fed to dogs because they couldn't strangle their puppies) was 25,800.

We're assuming a ridiculously high rate of recovery from being cut: 50%*. So we have the number of boys who died at 43,000.

Add in the 8,600 babies killed for the Unsullied to finish their training: 51,600.

*That’s half of a high estimate of the deaths caused by Dany, for one batch of Unsullied in one city, and I'd like to point out that the usual survival rate from castration at a young age ranged from one in three (30%) to one in ten (10%).”

This is a very generous estimate, which should give us an idea that the number of slaves traffic throughout Essos must be astronomical. There are, however, a few issues that I have wight the actual process. From what we know of human physiology the removal of both the testicles and the penis should have hindered the muscle development of the Unsullied as well as hindering their strength. When Arstan points this out, Kraznys answers:

“They have discipline. We fight in the fashion of the Old Empire, yes. They are the lockstep legions of Old Ghis come again, absolutely obedient, absolutely loyal, and utterly without fear.”

Another issue that comes to mind is the potion they are fed at meals to help them numb their pain:

“The wine of courage,” was the answer he gave her. “It is no true wine at all, but made from deadly nightshade, bloodfly larva, black lotus root, and many secret things. They drink it with every meal from the day they are cut, and with each passing year feel less and less. It makes them fearless in battle. Nor can they be tortured.”

This makes little sense to me, pain is our bodies way of telling us that something is wrong. If our bodies do not feel pain then how can you know when you are injured. How can you stop yourself from re-injuring yourself again?

Something that also seemed more complicated then it needed to be was the lack of names for each Unsullied. If they did not wish to provide them with names why not numbers?

Another point of interest that might come into play is Dany finally heads to Westeros, is the kinds of equipment the Unsullied used, Kraznys answered:

“They will wear such armor as you wish, but you must provide it.”

If the Unsullied go to battle in Westeros, they will most likely be fighting fully armored knights, if Dany is able to armor at least a fraction of the Unsullied that should allow her to even the odds in that respect.

Finally, an interesting piece of foreshadowing for the coming chapter:

“Dany told the girl, “but if some enemy of mine should offer them freedom for betraying me …”

“They would kill him out of hand and bring her his head, tell her that,” the slaver answered. “Other slaves may steal and hoard up silver in hopes of buying freedom, but an Unsullied would not take it if the little mare offered it as a gift. They have no life outside their duty. They are soldiers, and that is all.”

It seems that the Good Masters are so confident in their training of the Unsullied that they could never imagine that the Unsullied would turn on them. Not even for the promise of freedom.

Neither a Beggar nor a Slaver

“A man cannot sup from the beggar’s bowl all his life and stay a man. I had my taste in Qarth, that was enough. I will not come to Pentos bowl in hand.”

“Better to come a beggar than a slaver,” Arstan said.

“There speaks one who has been neither.” Dany’s nostrils flared.”

While discussing with Astan the merits of purchasing a slave army Dany recalls her brother’s begging for help to regain his crown and how this humiliation help to demoralize Viserys and how she [Dany] didn’t want to follow his footsteps. I’m not the biggest fan of Viserys, however, I see why Dany loved him, feared him and pitted him. He was the only family she had and at some point he was a caring brother to her, however, the need to regain his crown and his inability to do so destroyed him and his life thus destroying her life in many ways.

Dany also recalls that she herself had also been sold as property and that this feeling has not left her, she also acknowledges that had Khal Drogo been a different man she would have had a much different life.

A Stolen Kiss

Dany is still thinking about the kiss Ser Jorah gave her. She is conflicted about it, she didn’t want to be kissed by him and yet she felt aroused by it even though she did not want to be. On her way back to the ship she wonders:

“He should never have done that. He is thrice my age, and of too low a birth for me, and I never gave him leave. No true knight would ever kiss a queen without her leave.”

When she arrives back at the ship she is worked up and doesn’t know if it’s the city or the stolen kiss by Ser Jorah or both. She slaps him and reproaches the advice he gave her knowing what the Unsullied were.

Now, we don’t know how much Ser Jorah knows about the making of the Unsullied, although apparently he know the basics, as he begins to say:

“Khaleesi,” he said , taken aback by her fury, “the Unsullied are chosen as boys, and trained—”

He apparently knows enough and doesn’t care. Ser Jorah is pragmatic but he is also amoral. While speaking with Dany he notes that if she wants to win the Seven Kingdoms she will have to get her hands dirty, Dany then thinks to herself:

“Blood and fire, thought Dany. The words of House Targaryen. She had known them all her life. “The blood of my enemies I will shed gladly. The blood of innocents is another matter.

Eight thousand Unsullied they would offer me. Eight thousand dead babes. Eight thousand strangled dogs.”

He explains that this is the way of warfare in Westeros, innocents will suffer if you want to win the crown and goes on to describe King’s Landing after the sack. The conversation then moves to armies. Dany doesn’t want to have an army that fights for her because she paid them, she wants an army that believes in her cause.

I think this will become very important in the future. The people who follow Dany (the majority of them) follow her and her cause, they don’t do it for monitory gain. this in turn creates a bond between Dany and her people. She cares deeply for the men who fight for her and this is why they follow her. There is a loyalty and trust there that Dany needs to realize and embrace.

A Touch of Pleasure

While exploring her new arousal Dany begins to masturbate Irri is awoken and she decides to help Dany reach climax.

Wordless, the handmaid put a hand on her breast, then bent to take a nipple in her mouth. Her other hand drifted down across the soft curve of belly, through the mound of fine silvery-gold hair, and went to work between Dany’s thighs. It was no more than a few moments until her legs twisted and her breasts heaved and her whole body shuddered. She screamed then . Or perhaps that was Drogon. Irri never said a thing, only curled back up and went back to sleep the instant the thing was done.

Although Irri had been given to Dany to teach her how to ride, we know from our discussions of Dany’s early AGOT chapters that Khal Drogo’s bloodriders use to use Dany’s handmaidens. To her this probably was a normal part of her duties.

Later on Irri offers to help pleasure Dany again:

“Should I pleasure the khaleesi?” Dany stepped away from her.

“No. Irri, you do not need to do that. What happened that night, when you woke … you’re no bed slave, I freed you, remember? You …”

“I am handmaid to the Mother of Dragons,” the girl said. “It is great honor to please my khaleesi.”

“I don’t want that,” she insisted. “I don’t.” She turned away sharply. “Leave me now. I want to be alone. To think.”

Personally, I’m not to bothered by what happened, it wasn’t forced and Irri didn’t see anything wrong with it, she even offered to do it again, to her it seemed like something normal to do.

It’s an interesting scene because we also begin to see that Dany is not afraid of her sexuality, she embraces.

CONCLUSION

Overall it was an interesting chapter in which we learn a lot about both the Unsullied and about Dany’s relationships with the people who serve her. We see Dany having to face extreme morals dilemmas and the beginnings of the struggle within her to do was is right yet still find a way to achieve her goals. These two things will come into conflict again and again. Finally, we also see how torn Dany is about what happened with Ser Jorah. She considered him a friend and a trusted advisor and yet he betrayed her trust and for the first time she is questioning who this person is.

[SeanF]

Annara Snow,

Indeed, very few people are competent rulers, in-universe. Much of the business of ruling is tedious (to many people); chairing meetings, reading and responding to correspondence, drafting edicts, trying cases, collecting taxes. Dany has little aptitude for any of this. Very few of the other protagonists have as well.

Perhaps she could find a competent chief minister to delegate power to. Aegon I delegated his power to his sisters, and that could be a precedent she could follow.

[MoIaF]

The specific outcome isn't necessarily what's important here from the perspective of Dany's happiness. What makes Dany happy and her journey to discover that and separate her own dreams from those she's inherited from Viserys seems important. How well she learns what it is she truly wants and how that plays into her choice to pursue ruling despite the personal costs of unhappiness or to forgo ruling for a chance at happiness seems to be developing as an underlying theme even now buried underneath the surface expectations of her immediate return to Westeros.

This makes me think of Jon, as he and Dany have parallel (and at time complimentary) arcs, he's struggle is between duty and honor. For Dany ruling in many ways is a duty she feels that she must live up to her family's name, especially as she is the last scion of House Tagaaryen. She also feels a duty towards the slaves she freed, she feels responsible for them now. In the current chapter she feels responsible for the khalasar she inherited, for those people who stayed behind for her. To her it is her duty and responsibility to take care of them, not only because of who she is but because she believes it to be the right thing.

When Dany was leading her small khalasar through the Red Waste I recall her thinking that she had to be strong for all of them, even Ser Jorah. She knows that she has the inner strength to survive (she's done it many times before) and understands that some people don't have that strength.

ETA: I forgot to add that this conflict within Dany is a pure reflection of one of the overaching themes of the series, which is the "human heart in conflict with itself".

[Parwan]

2. What happens is that they cease to be kings. Aerys was killed by his own kingsguard, Robert was murdered by his own queen, Joffrey was murdered at his own wedding. Not that it is a sure-fire thing, but it does create pressure and problems that need to be addressed. It may not even affect a single monarch, but his enitre administration or may plague his or her successors, but it will need to be alleviated or dealt with at some point. Unless one has dragons.

During the course of the series the problem is far greater than who sits on the Iron Throne. In effect the Seven kingdoms have ceised to be, as the Iron Throne effectively rules fewer than half the kingdoms and the two main houses supporting it are essentially at war with each other. There doesn't seem to be any way to return to the previous situation.

1. As for Dany's theory of governance, she simply does not have one apart of some vague ideas from an outsiders perspective. And with dragons at her side and her fanatical folowing she won't have to learn.

1. Functionally, everyone has a theory. It is not possible to operate on the basis of pure empiricism. Most people in ASoIaF (and I'd say most people in the real world) don't have a completely adequate grasp of these facts. There's an aphorism I remember that goes something like this: The practical man who eschews "mere theory" is almost always an intellectual slave to some defunct economist. I can't claim that as an exact quote. I'm not sure who said it (John Kenneth Galbraith I think, or maybe Lord Keynes). We can remove the sarcasm, include psychologists and political scientists along with the economists, and we'll have a good principle. Dany's operating theory is very close to everyone else's, or at least to everyone with power in the 7K.

2. Again I'll say that you haven't challenged my basic points. Kings can be stabbed in the back or given poisoned wine. This says nothing about the assertion that there is no requirement in the 7K that rulers perform up to a set standard. There is no "contract" worthy of the name. It is obviously possible that a good king could be poisoned or stabbed. There is no parliament in the Seven Kingdoms, and i see no tendency toward the creation of such a body. There is no Magna Carta in the Seven Kingdoms. I see nothing like the beginnings of a constitution. The fact that rulers face pressures and problems that need to be addressed is clear, but scarcely relevant.

I don't want to derail the thread. My thinking on this issue can be found in a series of threads under the general heading of "Systemic Problems." You can find the first thread here:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85950-systemic-problems/

A matter of interest to this thread is Jorah's pledge to Queen Daenerys. He promises to follow her orders, no matter what. That is quite typical for vows in Westeros south of the Wall. The problem is not with those swearing fealty. The problem is that the vows themselves so often suck. Another matter of relevance to the current discussion relates to Barristan Selmy. I say that one argument for Dany's legitimacy as a ruler is the support given her by this knight. I'll have more to say later. On my general opinion of Selmy and how he fits into Westeros, you can check out this link:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84076-barristan-the-barometer/

The main point is this:

"If Ser Barristan Selmy is considered a bad man, who in Westeros can be considered good?" My answer is, "essentially no one who has any significant power."

Edited for grammar

[Parwan]

Renly Baratheon. :lol:

Which is very ironic, that the guy who essentially said: "Screw the laws of succession" was the Master of Laws under Robert. Seriously though, it supports what you said - the title seems to be conferred among family members or cronies but doesn't seem to mean much. I doubt that Renly ever bothered much with the law. (Except maybe to find grounds on which Robert could set Cersei aside and marry Margaery?)

...

But that begs the question, is there anyone in ASOAIF who would both enjoy being the monarch on the IT and would be good at ruling?

...

Annara Snow,

Indeed, very few people are competent rulers, in-universe. Much of the business of ruling is tedious (to many people); chairing meetings, reading and responding to correspondence, drafting edicts, trying cases, collecting taxes. Dany has little aptitude for any of this. Very few of the other protagonists have as well.

Perhaps she could find a competent chief minister to delegate power to. Aegon I delegated his power to his sisters, and that could be a precedent she could follow.

These are matters that are worthy of discussion as we go along. They will be particularly important when we get to Meereen. What sort of justice might we hope for in this story? How does this relate to the concept of "justice" in general? What is good governance in the universe that GRRM has given us? How does that relate to what we would consider good governance in our world?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Great job Patrick , you hit all the relevant themes I observed in the chapter so I don't have much to add.

I did however find this quote similar to Dany's adventure in Meereen.

“I cannot see Drogon,” said Ser Jorah Mormont as he joined her on the forecastle. “Is he lost again?” “We are the ones who are lost, ser. Drogon has no taste for this wet creeping, no more than I do.”

In Meereen Drogon also flies away and is lost to Dany, however just like in this situation Dany was the one lost not him.

One of the take home messages of ACOK was how important and dangerous dragons are and the difference they can make. Qarth lusted for them and so did Xaro, and the Pyat Pree. Quaithe also acted as Dany's reminder of how important dragons are . I believe all of these were a build up to Dany "forgetting" her dragons in ADWD for her to finally learn on first hand experience how they really are important to her.

In ACOK we have:

No, that is defeat. I have something Viserys never had. I have the dragons. The dragons are all the difference.

and then from this chapter it continues with:

Thankfully, I have Ser Jorah and my bloodriders. And my dragons, never forget. In time, the dragons would be her most formidable guardians, just as they had been for Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters three hundred years ago.

In all these cases Dany for a split second forgets she has dragons and how much of a difference they can make (not just by weapon wars, but also as political tools to lure people to your side etc.) I believe all of these quotes are a build up to her ADWD arc where she forgets about them especially after Drogon ate Hazzea. I kind of see it as a similar parallel to Catelyn warning Robb to keep Greywind at his side at all times, I've noticed Dany's thoughts are more clear when her dragons are even just beside her.

Agreed. To the bolded part, this is true but with a caveat. Dany pursuit of the Iron Throne is based upon her need to reclaim her family's kingdom. However, aside from this everything Dany has been through the decisions she has made are in pursuit of how she feels and who she is as a person. From her becoming the "mother of dragons" to her taking command of the khalesar and becoming a sort of khal, to being the "breaker of chains" to becoming the Queen of Meereen. She is trying to find her way in the world.

She is constantly conflicted by all the roles she has taken upon herself because at times they conflict with one another. She is trying to find herself. Going back to the chapter we see a girl that knows that slavery is wrong but has been desensitize to it, she will however, come to understand the true horror of what it really is and thus begin to understand that the power she has can be used for more than conquering.

Agreed, well said especially the last paragraph.

snip

I agree Dany is often conflicted with what everyone wants vs what she wants. That's why I respect Daario's position in her arc because he is the only one that respects what she wants. Both Jorah and Barristan want her to go back to westeros cause that is their home.

But, really that ship sailed when she hatched the dragon eggs. She could have sold them, and retired into wealthy obscurity in some part of Essos. But, she hatched them instead, with consequences that reverberated around the world. She has a host of enemies, followers, dubious allies, and retiring into private life isn't an option any more.

I don't think the ship has sailed. You have to keep in mind that the dream she had before she hatched the eggs was about her turning into a dragon which flew her to the "red door".

The dragons are a symbol of what will help Dany find her home

[Ragnorak]

Nice work, Maester of Ice and Fire.

Motherhood from Hell

In the center of the Plaza of Pride stood a red brick fountain whose waters smelled of brimstone, and in the center of the fountain a monstrous harpy made of hammered bronze. Twenty feet tall she reared. She had a woman’s face, with gilded hair, ivory eyes, and pointed ivory teeth. Water gushed yellow from her heavy breasts. But in place of arms she had the wings of a bat or a dragon, her legs were the legs of an eagle, and behind she wore a scorpion’s curled and venomous tail.

The opening paragraph is a warped image of womanhood and motherhood with monstrous and hellish features. No arms to hold children, breasts that spew a yellowish filth instead of nurturing milk, pointed teeth instead of kisses, a poisonous tale surrounded by the scent of hell.

The Unsullied buying a baby to kill for a silver is another warped maternal image only to be further twisted by the mother not even getting the silver. The nurturing and strangling of the puppy is another example of murderous affronts to motherhood.

Age vs. Youth

Old Ghis had fallen five thousand years ago, if she remembered true; its legions shattered by the might of young Valyria

The image of the might of the young conquering the old is interesting in light of impending events. The castration of the Unsullied and their murder of newborns give the image of destroying the next generation that revitalizes a society. The naked boy in the street echoes this as he seems uncared for, is alone, and has no play or productive activity to engage in. This stands in contrast to the decay in Astapor that literally fills the air with the red dust and the erosion of the city itself Dany sees at the docks. It also contrasts Dany with the two older knights. Jorah is more jaded and streetwise and pragmatic and he would choose to make use of these slaves. Barristan is even older and still steeped in honor, codes and tradition and he would flee this place shunning slavery but leaving the institution intact and unharmed. There are reasons age teaches you these lessons and those reasons will soon complicate Dany's life and story. It takes a certain youthful idealism and lack of experience with the far reaching consequences to let indignation rule and just tear down an offense like Astapor.

There's a bit of a Craster's Keep moral comparison to be had where Sam rather than Jon is more the parallel to Dany and Jeor Mormont walks a line somewhere between his son's choice and Barristan's in Astapor. He makes use and turns a blind eye. There Jon listens to the advice of age while Sam refuses to swallow the injustice of it like Dany does here.

True Knights and Stories

Jorah convinces Dany to come here with a story about the fabled defense of a city by the Unsullied. The stories and songs are often true but they gloss over the costs and some ugly realities. The bards probably won't mention Sam's crying or pissing his breeches when they sing about him killing Puddles and the stories of the Unsullied don't mention the babies or puppies that died to save Qohor some 15 years before it was attacked. The storied moment always has a cost that no one sings of

“I saw King’s Landing after the Sack. Babes were butchered that day as well, and old men, and children at play. More women were raped than you can count.

Those forgotten ones Jorah mentions are the neglected story components in favor of Aegon and Rhaenys in the start of Dany's own story. Dany's love of stories came up last chapter with her fondly remembering Viserys and her love of sailing and the sea. Here Dany is confronted with the bitter reality behind the songs and stories-- both the Unsullied's and her own. "A true king protects his people or he is no King at all." In Westeros we see power graspers care only about those worth singing about and leaving all others to suffer. Viserys would have chosen the same, but not Dany She will make a choice that is closer to a "true knight" than either of her anointed protectors counsel despite their own calling.

There's also this:

No true knight would ever kiss a queen without her leave.

“You have. You’ve displeased me greatly, ser. If you were my true knight, you would never have brought me to this vile sty.” If you were my true knight, you would never have kissed me, or looked at my breasts the way you did, or…

On a first read we don't know Arstan is Selmy, but on a reread we do and that ties him to the true knight theme. He is in disguise in part because he wasn't a true knight (and Aerys wasn't a true king.) The true knight theme also touches on Jorah not protecting Dany's feelings that goes beyond the typical "true knight" morality theme.

Bloody Hands

If you mean to sit his Iron Throne, you must win it as he did, with steel and dragonfire. And that will mean blood on your hands before the thing is done.”

I think "bloody hands" is a recurring moral theme in the series and tied to owning responsibility for one's actions. Littlefinger and Tywin claim clean hands for their murderous weddings so that image seems clearly immoral. I also think the idea is established in Aemon's ravens and doves speech to Jon where Jon has blood on his hands up to his wrist.

“The blood of my enemies I will shed gladly. The blood of innocents is another matter

.

Aemon says that the Nights Watch prefers ravens not doves. It generally isn't possible to shed your enemies blood without spilling the innocent's though the belief that one can seems to coincide with the dove aspect of the metaphor. This idea of choosing the raven, not the dove-like course of having pure honor, comes up again when Qhorin Halfhand asks the question of what one man's honor is worth? Jorah and Selmy are presenting Dany with very similar moral choices. Selmy is advocating for the pure code of honor path of a dove that leaves Dany as a beggar in Pentos to be sold again (to Aegon though she doesn't know it.) Jorah is arguing the pragmatic path somewhat like the raven but with no real moral restraints.

Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

This is "in the game of thrones you win or you die." It is the ends justify the means and in part relies on the underlying belief that nothing is in fact worth dying for. It is the moral path Tywin followed that led to the near extinction of her family and her starting lot in the series. His advocating the benefits of a civilized Unsullied sacking strikes me as very much like Tywin's math question to Tyrion about deaths at dinner vs. deaths on a battlefield. The Halfhand compares honor to the safety of the realm, a higher purpose in the spirit of oath and honor even if violating the letter of both. This seems to be the moral path of preferring ravens so long as you're willing to get blood on your hands in the form of owning the responsibility for your actions.

Dany is counseled by both Barristan and Jorah and presented two options yet she will choose a third path. Barristan counsels being a purely moral dove, Jorah counsels taking Tywin's ends justify means course, and Dany will imperfectly choose the path of the raven. I say imperfectly because it is hard to own responsibility for consequences you don't yet see or understand. If Dany understood the consequences of smashing the slave trade throughout Slavers Bay she probably would never have done it. It is clear from her rejection of Selmy that she's learned the need for pragmatism, but her line to Jorah about killing enemies and innocents shows she hasn't yet internalized that those two are almost never mutually exclusive casualties when it comes to war. After her education on making Unsullied it is easy to see why she views it this way now. Dany is about to embark on a path that will show her the consequences of her actions. I suspect that a great deal of her eventual difficulty ruling in Meereen is a reticence to make certain choices as she begins to grasp and own responsibility for the consequences of those choices-- a perspective she lacks now.

Of note is that here in this chapter, Dany is largely supported by the "true knight" and "true king" morality concepts that recur throughout all the various POVs in the series. The eventual fate of Astapor makes it difficult to see the events beginning to unfold as a resoundingly moral feel good choice, but the horrors Dany is confronted with here continuing in perpetuity is the alternative. A moral dilemma is being set up that will be explored from here to the end of the reread and beyond into the next book and it is being intermingled with Dany's story.

[Fire Eater]

Good job, Maester of Ice and Fire

Also, agree with what Ragnorak said, Dany is trying to find a middle path between the two extremes of Jorah and Barristan, pragmatism and idealism.

“They have discipline. We fight in the fashion of the Old Empire, yes. They are the lockstep legions of Old Ghis come again, absolutely obedient, absolutely loyal, and utterly without fear.”

Another issue that comes to mind is the potion they are fed at meals to help them numb their pain:

“The wine of courage,” was the answer he gave her. “It is no true wine at all, but made from deadly nightshade, bloodfly larva, black lotus root, and many secret things. They drink it with every meal from the day they are cut, and with each passing year feel less and less. It makes them fearless in battle. Nor can they be tortured.”

This makes little sense to me, pain is our bodies way of telling us that something is wrong. If our bodies do not feel pain then how can you know when you are injured. How can you stop yourself from re-injuring yourself again?

I think the answer is simple, they won't suffer pain to inhibit them in battle, and numbness to pain would likely increase their courage as they have one less thing to worry about in battle.

Decline:

Astapor like the other Ghiscari cities gives off a feeling of decline with the walls crumbling and decaying while the elite live a life of decadence permitting themselves every vice imaginable. They resemble medieval or Renaissance Italians pretending to be Romans, and romanticizing the Roman Empire. They like to converse about the glories of the Old Empire while their civilization decays, they are a culture stuck living in the past, not unlike the Ironborn.

Foreshadowing:

"Only three days past I showed these same Unsullied to a corsair king who hopes to buy them all"

"The corsair wanted only a hundred, your worship"

Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them.

I think that corsair king was Gerion Lannister, Tyrion's long-lost uncle.