Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part II: ACoK & ASoS

[Annara Snow]

^ A lot of those references seem to be in a negative context. Even in the passage where the bones don't scare her anymore, Arya "felt better with steel in her hand".

In any case, there is an interest in dragons from those early scenes; of course, that doesn't imply that her relationship with them will be harmonious.

But I would say they're progressing from negative to neutral to positive - from being scared of the monsters in AGOT to wanting to see the dragons. A lot of that is about her growing up and not being scared anymore of the things that used to scare her. Sansa used to be scared of the Hound, after all.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

In any case, there is an interest in dragons from those early scenes; of course, that doesn't imply that her relationship with them will be harmonious.

But I would say they're progressing from negative to neutral to positive - from being scared of the monsters in AGOT to wanting to see the dragons. A lot of that is about her growing up and not being scared anymore of the things that used to scare her. Sansa used to be scared of the Hound, after all.

After that Mercy chapter i doubt there is much on Planetos that would scare Arya anymore.

[Maia]

Whew, finally caught up with this re-read!

Yes we have discussed this several times, and I think it is a point overlooked so much. IMO Dany's bond with Drogon is almost exactly the same as the Stark childrens bond with their direwolves. Of course they are wargs and she is not. However she almost is, she cannot see out of Drogons eyes like they can, but he feels her moods, gets angry when she does, can feel her desperation or pain from miles away.

I think it quite likely that Dany _will_ be able to see through Drogon's eyes at some point. Let's not forget that she got her dragons almost a year after the Starks got their pups. There is also Dany's fear of commitment to one dragon exclusively, likely due to an instinctive understanding that she would be forsaking the other 2. Not completely, perhaps - I do think that there is a special bond between Dany and Viserion and Rhaegal that won't completely disappear, but still to a great degree.

Her interactions with Drogon are quite similar to Bran and Jon's early interactions with Summer and Ghost, where the direwolves would be aware of dangers that their humans were oblivious to, even when these dangers weren't something a normal animal would catch and react to, and try to protect them.

Another thing that struck me, going through this re-read and my slow re-read of ASOIAF, is how unfair future accusations of Dany not having any talent for administration and generally only doing well as long as she was following advice of competent people (mostly Jorah) is.

Because yes, Jorah convinced her to go to the Red Waste, but they were lost there and would have perished without Dany's leadership. And everything that happened at Vaes Tolorro was 100% Dany.

It turns out that she was able to organize people very well on a day-to-day basis completely on her own!

Ditto Quarth - Dany was the one who sent her khas to scout the lands surrounding them and Dany was the one who sent her people to learn things about Quarth. She is also quite observant herself.Yes, her attempts to find support in Quarth didn't bear fruit, but I'd argue that it made sense to try. Somebody might have seen the potential and helped her in some way.

The alternatives Jorah tried to push on her only served his selfish desire to have Dany all to himself.

I don't have much to say about the HoTU visions - all the points have already been made.

But speaking about the unreliability of magic - I'd venture to say that that firemage's performance had to be predictable for him to do it day-in, day-out. And also, as Varamyr's PoV showed, trained skinchangers can "ride" their animals reliably. Ditto the glass candles, when they started working. So, IMHO GRRM has already slipped a bit on the "mysterious and unpredictable" score.

I feel that at some point we'd need at least a hint as to how people living during strong magic periods protected themselves against shadowbabies, warlock curses and such. Because there has to be some protection, otherwise magicians would rule over their respective societies, which hasn't been suggested by the narrative so far. Except, maybe in Valyria, but even there it doesn't seem to me that sorcery was the main source of power for the ruling class, except for whatever magic they used to become able to bond with dragons, IMHO.

[Fire Eater]

He can't have a Targaryen identity if he's not aware of it. Maybe he will develop it one day when he finds out about his true parentage; that's still to be seen.

Define "a Targaryen". Is it someone who has been brought up as a Targaryen? Jon hasn't. Is it someone who has the last name Targaryen? Jon doesn't, and it's uncertain if he will ever have it.

A Targaryen is someone whose is the trueborn child of a Targaryen father according to the patrilineal rules of Westeros. Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son, so technically that makes him a Targaryen. A rabbit thinking it's a wolf its entire life is still a rabbit, or in this case a dragon.

I don't remember Jon's dragon references, can you refresh my mind? I can think of more Tyrion and Arya dragon references, and I'm pretty sure neither of them has a Targaryen parent (no, I don't believe in Targ Tyrion crackpot).

"Snow."

Sam glanced up at the sound. Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire, beating the air with wide black wings.

Drogon's wide black wings beat the air.

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him [Drogon], smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands.

Once a man had said the words his blood was black.

In the cold night air the [Jon's] wound was smoking.

on's childhood roleplaying as Aemon the Dragonknight, his admiration for Daeron I the Young Dragon, his blade of dragonsteel, his dragon chat with Tyrion, his inner thoughts during the battle of the Wall (He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three [...] It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon), the Dragonkin book that Sam drops and come open as it falls...

Quote

In both cases, the "black dragon" ends up covered in mud, symbolically becoming the "brown dragon". Is this a hint that a literal brown dragon is set to (re)-enter the narrative, and will be associated with a (formerly) "black" dragon? Literally replacing a black dragon, or metaphorically associating with a "black dragon"? (My money would be on Jon if the latter, given that Sam is holding the book when he's summoned to Jon in AFFC, and given that the "brown" black dragon in TMK had formerly taken the pseudonym of John.) Is it a hint about a metaphorical "black" dragon becoming a metaphorical "brown" dragon? And it's particularly interesting that the "muddy" black dragon appears in conjunction with a book about Lightbringer (the Jade Compendium in AFFC) and the arrival of the dawn (in TMK).

Now can we please stick to the main topic of this thread.

As for the brass merchant, this is probably nothing, but brass is a metal of wealth through methods based more on chance than on hard labor, and it is a somewhat chaotic metal displaying traits of spontaneity and youth. Through this youthfulness, it also is a metal of healing and rejuvenation. Brass is a metal of the sun, and is often used in ritual when the call for gold (fAegon) is unable to be fulfilled. It associated mainly with fire with a minor association with water. I think this fits Dany to a degree.

[Parwan]

...

I feel that at some point we'd need at least a hint as to how people living during strong magic periods protected themselves against shadowbabies, warlock curses and such. Because there has to be some protection, otherwise magicians would rule over their respective societies, which wasn't suggested by the narrative so far. Except, maybe in Valyria, but even there it doesn't seem to me that sorcery was the main source of power for the ruling class, except for whatever magic they used to become able to bond with dragons, IMHO.

It's true that we don't get much in the way of amulets or warding in ASoIaF. There are some matters of relevance to this issue. Mel burns the skinchanger's eagle during the battle of the Wall. Qyburn tells Cersei that prophecies can be forestalled when she tells him about Maggy. Clearly, magic can be used against magic. Thus, people would want to have the strongest magician on their side. Of more relevance to Dany's arc, we have the dusky woman and Moqorro. There is almost certainly going to be a struggle between the two of them. We'll see how that goes.

[Mithras]

Mel burns the skinchanger's eagle during the battle of the Wall.

I will always be sceptical about this. I think either Jon did that inconsciously or Bloodraven did it.

We know how fickle Mel can be from her POV. She would never miss a chance to prove her power (most of which are feeble tricks of pyromancers and alchemists), which is why Stannis vouches for her. If many people think that she burned the eagle, Mel would never deny it.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't have much to say about the HoTU visions - all the points have already been made.

But speaking about the unreliability of magic - I'd venture to say that that firemage's performance had to be predictable for him to do it day-in, day-out. And also, as Varamyr's PoV showed, trained skinchangers can "ride" their animals reliably. Ditto the glass candles, when they started working. So, IMHO GRRM has already slipped a bit on the "mysterious and unpredictable" score.

I also thought about this.

Also Benerro's control of fire in Volantis seems really fixed and not as GRRM described magic, as he was able to make fire appear on each of his fingers and draw glyphs in thin air.

[Maia]

Clearly, magic can be used against magic. Thus, people would want to have the strongest magician on their side.

But why would the strongest magician be "on their side" and not become a ruler himself? We should have heard of at least some "sorcerer kings", but we haven't. IMHO, there must be ways to protect oneself from magic that are not dependent on another magician actively helping you. Either magically warded objects (of more portable nature than the walls of Storm's End), or maybe some protection methods that even normal people can implement. Like it is possible to see through glamours, according to the Kindly Man. I suspect that the wildlings know some partially effective ways to fend off the Others - which is why they haven't been savaged as much as the NW at the Fist. And why Mance initially thought that they had a chance to fight off the Others by themselves.

But this is way off topic, sorry.

I will always be sceptical about this. I think either Jon did that inconsciously or Bloodraven did it.

That firemage in Quarth was able to do his magic quite reliably and would have been able to burn the eagle too. There isn't much to it - bird feathers are quite flammable.

There has been zero evidence so far of Jon being a magician that can summon fire as well as a skinchanger. And personally, I think that it would be massively over the top. Jon is already on his way to become a great swordsman, an owner of a rare Valyrian steel blade, he is a strong warg with a direwolf, possibly Robb's designated heir, likely Rhaegar's son, he seems slated to get a dragon at some point and now you suggest that he is a better magician than Melisandre too?! Please.

As to Bloodraven - we don't know that he can do fire-magic, he is quite far away and what reason did he have to interfere? The eagle wouldn't have turned the tide of battle, it was just a first salvo. Impressive, but not decisive.

We know how fickle Mel can be from her POV. She would never miss a chance to prove her power (most of which are feeble tricks of pyromancers and alchemists), which is why Stannis vouches for her.

From her own PoV we know that her spells have become strong enough that she doesn't need the tricks anymore. As I have pointed out above, it is not as if she unique in this. The firemage in Quarth was also able to leave his powders and tricks behind.

P.S.: Re: stone beast taking flight from a smoking tower vision in HoTU - on my re-read I have noticed that Storm's End has only a single huge tower. And we know that JonCon and fAegon are about to attack Storm's End. Suppose they take it and for some reason put it to the torch (intentionally or not). One smoking tower, coming up. And JonCon as a "stone beast" for obvious reasons - his sigil a griffin and his greyscale, "shadow fire" either a hint of fAegon's false, "shadow" nature or symbolic for the greyscale epidemic.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I also thought about this.

Also Benerro's control of fire in Volantis seems really fixed and not as GRRM described magic, as he was able to make fire appear on each of his fingers and draw glyphs in thin air.

Well there is also the firebinder in Qarth, the guy who was building a fire ladder in the air, then walked up it. Quaithe tells Dany he is from Asshai. I want someone to go to Asshai so bad!!!

Anyway i think there must be a school or order or something in Asshai where people learn to manipulate fire and basically draw with it in the air.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

But why would the strongest magician be "on their side" and not become a ruler himself? We should have heard of at least some "sorcerer kings", but we haven't. IMHO, there must be ways to protect oneself from magic that are not dependent on another magician actively helping you. Either magically warded objects (of more portable nature than the walls of Storm's End), or maybe some protection methods that even normal people can implement. Like it is possible to see through glamours, according to the Kindly Man. I suspect that the wildlings know some partially effective ways to fend off the Others - which is why they haven't been savaged as much as the NW at the Fist. And why Mance initially thought that they had a chance to fight off the Others by themselves.

But this is way off topic, sorry.

Well I think that the typical fantasy magician/court jester/whatever is always bound to the king/ruler, like his second hand man. In a lot of fantasy stories that's how it goes. There is the head, then there is the 2nd in command who is actually pulling all the strings. It's much easier to get behind someone like Stannis Baratheon, who has a claim to the throne, who has the noble house name, who has banners and men following him. It's much easier to use someone like that to be the front man than it is to be the front man yourself. Especially if you are a woman of low birth from a foreign country. I fee like if Mel were to try to strike out on her own and become the queen sorcerous she would be found out and hated too quickly, no one would accept her. But people will accept Stannis, Sorry if I am insulting any die hard Stan-fans here, but she has been the one in charge of their operation, people in westeros have heard of her, but they accept her because she borrows credibility from Stannis.

[SeanF]

Well I think that the typical fantasy magician/court jester/whatever is always bound to the king/ruler, like his second hand man. In a lot of fantasy stories that's how it goes. There is the head, then there is the 2nd in command who is actually pulling all the strings. It's much easier to get behind someone like Stannis Baratheon, who has a claim to the throne, who has the noble house name, who has banners and men following him. It's much easier to use someone like that to be the front man than it is to be the front man yourself. Especially if you are a woman of low birth from a foreign country. I fee like if Mel were to try to strike out on her own and become the queen sorcerous she would be found out and hated too quickly, no one would accept her. But people will accept Stannis, Sorry if I am insulting any die hard Stan-fans here, but she has been the one in charge of their operation, people in westeros have heard of her, but they accept her because she borrows credibility from Stannis.

One does encounter sorcerer-kings and queens in fantasy literature, but I think the view that most writers take, that people would find them far too sinister to happily serve them directly, is correct. It makes sense for them to achieve their ends as advisers and ministers, rather than as rulers. In some cases, becoming a sorcerer actually requires one to live a fairly ascetic life.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Well there is also the firebinder in Qarth, the guy who was building a fire ladder in the air, then walked up it. Quaithe tells Dany he is from Asshai. I want someone to go to Asshai so bad!!!

Anyway i think there must be a school or order or something in Asshai where people learn to manipulate fire and basically draw with it in the air.

Yea thats what I suspect aswell that the red temple is a school. And its weird cause GRRM has been criticizing that type of magic but it seems to be evident in the book.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

One does encounter sorcerer-kings and queens in fantasy literature, but I think the view that most writers take, that people would find them far too sinister to happily serve them directly, is correct. It makes sense for them to achieve their ends as advisers and ministers, rather than as rulers. In some cases, becoming a sorcerer actually requires one to live a fairly ascetic life.

Right exactly! The path they took to become such a powerful wizard/sorcerer is ascetic and trying to be the ruler would be to.......what's the word......flamboyant for them. They have practiced stealth and secrecy, so it is best to be the man behind the curtain.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yea thats what I suspect aswell that the red temple is a school. And its weird cause GRRM has been criticizing that type of magic but it seems to be evident in the book.

He criticized fire magic? I hadnt seen that, I thought it was only blood magic he frowned on.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

He criticized fire magic? I hadnt seen that, I thought it was only blood magic he frowned on.

I meant he said that magic in his world isnt under any sort of rules and criticized stories where magic is ordered, but the fire mage in Qarth and Benerro seem to be using rules to control their magic, and also skinchanging seems to have a set of rules.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I meant he said that magic in his world isnt under any sort of rules and criticized stories where magic is ordered, but the fire mage in Qarth and Benerro seem to be using rules to control their magic, and also skinchanging seems to have a set of rules.

Oh right, yes magic does not seem like a sword without a hilt all the time to me either. Thoros seems to have a method for his life-breath. The fire mages definitely have it under control. ANd yes there are many rules for the wargs/skinchangers. Also for Arya's FM magic there are rules. The dragonglass candles seem to have rules as well.....hmm that's intersting.... Even the dragons, which are considered 'magic', are easily controlled once tamed. In Patq it was all about the will of riders, not the dragons going rogue and destroying stuff. Aemond chose to destroy allt he towns and castles, it was not his dragon acting alone or anything. In fact like the Sunfyre scene where Sunfyre creeps back to dragonstone wounded to help his rider, doesnt seem like something out of control to me.

Morroquo confined whatever he did to Vic's arm, it never seemed out of control either. Hmmm this is a cool subject :)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Oh right, yes magic does not seem like a sword without a hilt all the time to me either. Thoros seems to have a method for his life-breath. The fire mages definitely have it under control. ANd yes there are many rules for the wargs/skinchangers. Also for Arya's FM magic there are rules. The dragonglass candles seem to have rules as well.....hmm that's intersting.... Even the dragons, which are considered 'magic', are easily controlled once tamed. In Patq it was all about the will of riders, not the dragons going rogue and destroying stuff. Aemond chose to destroy allt he towns and castles, it was not his dragon acting alone or anything. In fact like the Sunfyre scene where Sunfyre creeps back to dragonstone wounded to help his rider, doesnt seem like something out of control to me.

Morroquo confined whatever he did to Vic's arm, it never seemed out of control either. Hmmm this is a cool subject :)

Yea I agree with all of those I think the only time magic has been seen as a sword without a hilt was when Dany did the ritual to hatch the eggs. The rest of the magical events in the series seem like they can be repeated at will.

[SeanF]

I think what Martin meant was that he disliked systems where magic becomes mechanical and robbed of mystery.

Magic isn't completely arbitrary in Martin's world, but it is somewhat unpredictable. It may not work quite as the user intends, or it may come and go, and there's a price to be paid for using it. It's important that magic should never be (in Tolkien's words) a "machine"; that is, a person simply has to utter a spell and their problems are solved, because that makes for a poor story.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Can we talk about why would Illyrio send Barristan to Dany? How did the conversation go between Belwas, Barristan and Illyrio when he chose to send them with 3 ships to Qarth to get Dany, and more importantly, her dragons. I guess he only did this after Jorah informed on where Dany was and what she was doing? Doesnt Jorah say his last message to Varys/Illyrio was in Qarth?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think what Martin meant was that he disliked systems where magic becomes mechanical and robbed of mystery.

Magic isn't completely arbitrary in Martin's world, but it is somewhat unpredictable. It may not work quite as the user intends, or it may come and go, and there's a price to be paid for using it. It's important that magic should never be (in Tolkien's words) a "machine"; that is, a person simply has to utter a spell and their problems are solved, because that makes for a poor story.

Oh okay I think that makes a bit more sense.

Can we talk about why would Illyrio send Barristan to Dany? How did the conversation go between Belwas, Barristan and Illyrio when he chose to send them with 3 ships to Qarth to get Dany, and more importantly, her dragons. I guess he only did this after Jorah informed on where Dany was and what she was doing? Doesnt Jorah say his last message to Varys/Illyrio was in Qarth?

I think Illyrio sent Barristan to Dany as a political tactic to show his trust to Daenerys after he found out she had dragons, just the same thing he is doing with Tyrion.

My guess is that Barristan intially was searching for Viserys and then when he found Illyrio he found out about the whole Molten gold incident so he decided to set out for Dany with help from Illyrio.