The Islamic State

[The Fallen]

Basically, what you are saying is that there are a lot of values within Islam worth to keep but what the religion needs is some kind of "Enlightenment", i.e. a similar process wich Christianity went through with Humanism and Enlightenment ( a phase of almost 400 years)?

Is my interpretation correct? If yes, I would agree with you.

The problem are people who think everything is fine as it is (people like Suttree or The Fallen as two examples from this thread)

Arakan,

Can you quote a post of mine where I've stated that Islam is fine as is? I haven't actually weighed in on the religion itself.

I was specifically addressing your support of intolerance towards all Muslims who refuse to leave behind their customs and traditions. The irrational fear you have about guys preaching on the street or women wearing hijabs.

I live in NYC. We have around 70,000 Muslims in NYC and around 230,000 in the metro area. We don't have these problems. And when a radicalized Muslim gets arrested we don't overreact.

We have 1.5 million Jews and guess what? There are no issues between the two groups. There's no blood being spilled in the streets.

I was a farmer's market today and bought vegetables from a Muslim couple, as did many other people of all races. They have Tibetans and Mexicans and white Americans working for them. The wife helps run the business, talks with the customers and takes charge even when the husband is present. She doesn't seem repressed or unhappy. And she wears a hajib. Maybe that's her cover and she's secretly planning our demise. I highly doubt it. I don't know what her politics are and I don't care.

This is everyday life in NYC. And as you know we're very tolerant. If 400 Muslims go off to join ISIS, they'll be dealt with on their return by the proper authorities. But why should that couple have to pay for the deeds of a few?

And as you can see, nowhere in this post have I advocated for Islam. I'm advocating against intolerance.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

ISiS needs to incorporate black top hats into their uniform to complete their look.

[Jon AS]

Let me ask you one thing...why is it always so in discussions like this that people want to deflect from the original topic, whether by

1) but Christians did bad thinks too

2) but Neo-Nazis do bad thinks too

Because it would never occur to you to imply that "Christianity is to blame" or "western secularism is to blame" or any other simple answer to explain as to why these violent arseholes act the way they do.

The simplest truth about the world is that there are no simple answers. Life is complicated, everybody who says differently is selling something.

And you know that. Yet you insist that in the case of Islam, the answer is clear and easy. 'Us vs. them', 'force them to make a choice', while completely ignoring that for the overwhelming majority of Muslims there's no reason to make that choice: they don't identify with radicalised members of their religion or cultural sphere any more than you identify with murderous racists*. Telling them that they, and the religious believes they hold, are to blame for the atrocities of ISIS and they better 'get in line or else' is stupid on a number of levels. Stop pretending that there's an easy fix, treat people like the complicated bags of reason and emotion that they are, and you'll get somewhere.

ISIS are clear, unmistakeable villains not because they are Muslim, but because they engage in this kind of simplistic, black and white, us vs. them thinking. They commit atrocities because they've boiled the world down to a simple equation, where everyone not with them is against them and needs to be killed. The short term solution must be to find a way to stop them militarily, but the long term solution is going to be a hell of a lot more challenging. There's no easy fix here, and it will definitely take time. And, most importantly: we are never going to completely stamp out violent extremism of all kinds, because human beings have been coming up with reasons to murder one another for all of our history, since long before the Abrahamic religions came along, and even in situations where religion had been eliminated from the equation, like the Terror of the French Revolution.

All we can do is try to not forget about the nuances of human existence, and to work within that framework to promote peaceful coexistence. Because as soon as we forget, we start antagonising one another and once we start with that, violence is never too far behind.

*I certainly recognise that people like the NSU and I ultimately share a common cultural background, but that doesn't make me guilty by association.

[The Grey Wolf]

I must say that as a Muslim I am personally disgusted by ISIS and how it (though sadly it isn't the only one) justifies itself (falsely) using religion. As someone some pages back posted, the Quran explicitely says "there is no compulsion in religion" and there are quite a few scholars who argue that Jihad itself in terms of warfare (which comes secondary to the Jihad of the self to be a better person) should only be defensive, that is declared only after being attacked. Also, on the issue of non-Muslims there is an entire Surah entitled Surat Al-Kafirun dedicated to that (albeit it is short) which basically translates to the following: "Tell the nonbelievers, I do not believe what you believe and you do not believe what I believe, I will not believe what you believe and you will not believe what I believe, you have your faith and I have mine". I must admit though that I am extremly liberal and that my interpretation of this Surat is quite seperate from the traditional interpretation, which strikes me as both horrible and backwards.

[Horza]

With the crap Al-Maliki was pulling yesterday why wouldn't they push on Bagdad?

They are kinda already busy with Kurdistan and Syria, trying to gobble up a city of eight million people might be a bit of a stretch.

[Crixus]

-To say a religion's teachings are evil is not to say that every adherent of the religion is evil. Just like not every member of the National Socialist Party in Germany was evil, but the party itself was

-Christianity was only incidental to Nazism - it's certainly not what they based their atrocities on. It was actually discouraged by the higher ups in the regime. On the other hand, Jihadists explicitly cite the Quran to justify their barbaric acts

I'm an atheist, but we really need to put to rest the idea that all religions have an equally negative effect in the world, or that no culture is superior to another.

1. I am an atheist, although a very private one because in my country, 'apostates' are supposed to be tried for blasphemy and executed if found guilty.

2. Islam's teachings aren't inherently any more 'evil' than Christianity or others; the way said teachings are interpreted is the key. Just like certain versions of Christianity seem to endorse original sin and no birth control etc., similarly Islam has archaic outdated ideas alongside palatable ones (such as the right of women to own property as was set down during the initial days of Islam at a time when such rights were certainly not universal, the concept that all men are created equal regardless of colour or creed and stand as such before God, again an idea propagated widely during the initial rise of Islam, etc.).

3. Islam, Christianity and Judaism have the same roots and at their basic core, many fundamental similarities. To state otherwise is incorrect, in my view.

I used Nazism precisely the same way you're using ISIS: to infer that a small group of crazies means the entire religion's teachings are evil. ISIS is not representative of the vast majority of Muslims, nor how they practice their faith.

Islam is currently making the most negative impact on the world, just as Christianity did during the Inquisition and evangelicalism in other continents: perspective.

Personally, I loathe Islam and all it means in my country, and when I see a bearded man or a woman with her head covered I experience instant revulsion, anger and fear. But that doesn't give me the license to issue baseless proclamations on here, or anywhere else. I was making a specific point which somehow got distorted into another entirely.

I agree with others here who've talked about the need for evolution. Islam needs this desperately. Unfortunately, several factors make such a development virtually impossible in my opinion, among them the colonial/feudal histories of some Muslim countries, illiteracy, a large percentage of young people (who can be harnessed either way), lack of economic development and progress for large proportions of said countries, the rise of thuggish violence and suppression in the name of Islam as is happening more and more and as a consequence, a growing fear to voice any dissent, however sane.

It's as though the second some asshole bellows 'BECAUSE ISLAM/RELIGION!' they have a license to do whatever the fuck they want. A ray of hope in my country is the fact that for the first time in nearly 15 years the public narrative, along with the media, is openly and roundly condemning these animals. Coupled with a decisive military operation against these terrorists, the change in narrative means we have a chance, however slim, of seizing control and curbing this madness.

Religion used to be a private matter in my country when I was growing up. There was none of this sectarian BS and this intolerant bigotry, and certainly nothing that would excuse such behaviour.

[Tywin Manderly]

That is one excellent post! :agree:

[Multaniette]

Religion used to be a private matter in my country when I was growing up. There was none of this sectarian BS and this intolerant bigotry, and certainly nothing that would excuse such behaviour.

mebbe so on the shaded patios of lahore gymkhana before the country did away with his highness the gov general but i have a hard time believing this was the case elsewhere....

[Crixus]

Nope. I was referring to my own childhood and youth growing up in a strictly middle class family in Karachi, in a neighbour-hood that would definitely be classified as middle class, long after the governor general's passing i.e. 80s/90s.

[Multaniette]

Nope. I was referring to my own childhood and youth growing up in a strictly middle class family in Karachi, in a neighbour-hood that would definitely be classified as middle class, long after the governor general's passing i.e. 80s/90s.

:) the comment was a lot more acerbic than it need have been so apologies for that but growing up in a strictly middle-class (read: academic) family in multan during the 90s the picture you painted there came across as a veritable fantasy. and in general i think it has always been limited to a certain (urban) demographic because out there in the villages and the kots (and within "low-class" households in general, as my intellectually well-endowed family members were wont to put it) the socio-religious dogmatism has always ruled supreme. it always seemed to me that its deviance more than anything else that got the collective social goat...

[peterbound]

1. I am an atheist, although a very private one because in my country, 'apostates' are supposed to be tried for blasphemy and executed if found guilty.

2. Islam's teachings aren't inherently any more 'evil' than Christianity or others; the way said teachings are interpreted is the key. Just like certain versions of Christianity seem to endorse original sin and no birth control etc., similarly Islam has archaic outdated ideas alongside palatable ones (such as the right of women to own property as was set down during the initial days of Islam at a time when such rights were certainly not universal, the concept that all men are created equal regardless of colour or creed and stand as such before God, again an idea propagated widely during the initial rise of Islam, etc.).

3. Islam, Christianity and Judaism have the same roots and at their basic core, many fundamental similarities. To state otherwise is incorrect, in my view.

I used Nazism precisely the same way you're using ISIS: to infer that a small group of crazies means the entire religion's teachings are evil. ISIS is not representative of the vast majority of Muslims, nor how they practice their faith.

Islam is currently making the most negative impact on the world, just as Christianity did during the Inquisition and evangelicalism in other continents: perspective.

Personally, I loathe Islam and all it means in my country, and when I see a bearded man or a woman with her head covered I experience instant revulsion, anger and fear. But that doesn't give me the license to issue baseless proclamations on here, or anywhere else. I was making a specific point which somehow got distorted into another entirely.

I agree with others here who've talked about the need for evolution. Islam needs this desperately. Unfortunately, several factors make such a development virtually impossible in my opinion, among them the colonial/feudal histories of some Muslim countries, illiteracy, a large percentage of young people (who can be harnessed either way), lack of economic development and progress for large proportions of said countries, the rise of thuggish violence and suppression in the name of Islam as is happening more and more and as a consequence, a growing fear to voice any dissent, however sane.

It's as though the second some asshole bellows 'BECAUSE ISLAM/RELIGION!' they have a license to do whatever the fuck they want. A ray of hope in my country is the fact that for the first time in nearly 15 years the public narrative, along with the media, is openly and roundly condemning these animals. Coupled with a decisive military operation against these terrorists, the change in narrative means we have a chance, however slim, of seizing control and curbing this madness.

Religion used to be a private matter in my country when I was growing up. There was none of this sectarian BS and this intolerant bigotry, and certainly nothing that would excuse such behaviour.

I like this.

I hope evolution of your former religion occurs, but as you stated, it's an huge uphill battle... and not one I see happening any time soon.

An islamic enlightenment is a long time coming.

[Arakan]

The big question wrt the Islamic State is: what will Turkey do? It is an open secret that Turkey massively support(ed) the rebels (among them radical elements) in the Syrian War.

Turkey can hardly accept a strengthened Kurdish de facto state on its southern border (btw. Germany will now as well supply the Pershmega with military equipment, the right decision).

But neither can they tolerate a terrorist entity a few miles away from their borders.

Erdogan brought himself in a very difficult position.

[Suttree]

The problem are people who think everything is fine as it is (people like Suttree or The Fallen as two examples from this thread)

Yeah...except that isn't what either of us said in the slightest. Fallen already responded but my exact words were "Islam is not uniquely violent". There are a number of political and social factors that come into play and it's utterly simplistic to roundly denounce the entire religion.

[Crixus]

:) the comment was a lot more acerbic than it need have been so apologies for that but growing up in a strictly middle-class (read: academic) family in multan during the 90s the picture you painted there came across as a veritable fantasy. and in general i think it has always been limited to a certain (urban) demographic because out there in the villages and the kots (and within "low-class" households in general, as my intellectually well-endowed family members were wont to put it) the socio-religious dogmatism has always ruled supreme. it always seemed to me that its deviance more than anything else that got the collective social goat...

My apologies; you're from Multan?! My ancestry :D! I agree with you; my comments are more relevant from an urban perspective. Life wasn't as rosy as I painted, perhaps (a 'ye old days' syndrome?). But things weren't so boldly, openly intolerant back then.

Also, you're the first Paki I've met on here (hey, we can call ourselves that, no else can :P), so, hey! :)

ETA: I just realized that your user name (that on first glance seems as though it's derived from some fantasy-inspired canon) is actually simply: Multan-iette! Kick ass.

[Crixus]

Yeah...except that isn't what either of us said in the slightest. Fallen already responded but my exact words were "Islam is not uniquely violent". There are a number of political and social factors that come into play and it's utterly simplistic to roundly denounce the entire religion.

Agreed completely.

[Duckfield]

I'm disgusted by the people here who actually show support for Hamas. Obviously they don't have enough knowledge about the Middle East crisis and yet they think that they have a legitimate opinion on the matter.

[Shryke]

I'm disgusted by the people here who actually show support for Hamas. Obviously they don't have enough knowledge about the Middle East crisis and yet they think that they have a legitimate opinion on the matter.

How very random and off-topic.

[Duckfield]

How very random and off-topic.

It might seem so now because I was referring to some of the comments in the first 10 or so pages of this thread.

[Chiki]

A common misunderstanding of Islam I see often is that Islam is actually a peaceful religion. In other words, these ISIS terrorists are the ones who are "misreading" the Quran and using it as an excuse to be violent. In reality, however, Islam just is a fundamentally violent religion, and it's not open to interpretation at all.

ISIS terrorists can find a lot of verses in the Quran which justify their actions. (In all of these cases there is more than one verse, but I'll just copy paste one verse for the sake of simplicity). Let's examine them one by one:

1. ISIS executing apostates:

Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

2. ISIS fighting against Christians until they pay "jizya":

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

3. ISIS fighting for jihad:

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.

4. ISIS discriminating against women:

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

5. ISIS forcing women to wear veils:

Quran (33:59) - "Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them..."

The lesson we have to learn here is that the Islamic State finds justification for their actions via the Quran.

[Crixus]

The abrahamic religions are all archaic. Especially when you look at ancient scripture. This isn't exclusive to Islam. You can doubtless find similar outdated text in other religions. The difference is about evolving; other religions have to a degree, Islam largely hasn't.