If I Stop Watching...

[sj4iy]

I have been lurking on the forums for a long time, never posting. But these speculations about the books spoiled by the show make me want to expose what I believe. It is just my view, no proof of what I say, but...

I don't think HBO and DB&DW are allowed to disclose the secrets of ASOIAF before they are put into books. I know that GRRM sold his story "with an ending" to HBO. But if anything, GRRM is against spoilers. What GRRM said:

I do not think he would say that if he was about to be spoiled by a big TV show. Again:

He had already considered changing his story before because of spoiler. So I believe that whatever GRRM gave to HBO, he made sure he could change it and keep the book version as good or better.

I don't know what is in the contract between him and HBO. But I'm sure he planned for that. Anyway, very few of what we know (rumours) about season 5 are fitting exactly with the books now.

I know that GRRM is not good at planning his release date. But even in 2011 it was very likely that the last book would not be finished before the HBO series (unless the series would run a very very long time). And during maybe two years after ADWD, he hasn't worked seriously on the 6th book. He has been on many projects, including with HBO, he even bought a theater. He doesn't strike me as a guy rushing to finish his books before HBO spoil everything. And HBO is apparently not pressing him either.

So far the show didn't reveal or gave clues about the big secrets the book fans have found (I am totally convinced by some). I think that DB&DW do not have the real ASOIAF ending. They can change the story to adapt to a more casual public, but I don't think they could even use the fans theories (those that would be accurate). I think that GRRM question to DB&DW about Jon mother was there to make it clear that some plots will remain secret until he will reveal them in the appropriate context and time in the last books.

I am not concerned by the show spoiling the story. I see them as a separate entities now (more or less what GRRM says). I do not see the future seasons as the continuation of the books.

BTW, it will give GRRM the opportunity to surprise us again, the big way. What he delights the most.

I don't think that's correct at all. HBO didn't just buy the rights to the stories already written...they bought the rights to the books not written, as well. They own them. HBO wouldn't have bought the rights to ASoIaF unless Martin also gave them the ability to finish the show based on the story from the books. If anything, I would guess that HBO has protected itself with clauses that say Martin ISN'T free to change things willy nilly just to be 'different', because it could possibly hurt the marketability their own product, Game of Thrones. HBO shilled out the money for this series, and all indications so far from Martin and D&D are that the show will be using the ending (or something close to it) that Martin has given them. Why do you think Martin has suddenly panicked at the idea of the show catching up to his books? It's because they have the ability to give away his big secrets. He's gone so far as to suggest that HBO should do prequels, movies, side projects, or even stretch out AFFC and ADWD over 3 seasons...all sorts of nonsense that HBO has continuously shot down.

Basically, HBO bought the rights to a product. They expect to have the ability to base their tv adaptation on this product, because that's what they paid for. It's not just HBO that has to abide by a contract...it's Martin, as well. If he changes his story, he could be found in breach of contract, and HBO could sue him. I don't see Martin doing that.

[BalerionTheCat]

Again, I don't know what was the deal, what precise information is public. Certainly they would not advertise that HBO has not the full, unaltered story. But even if HBO had the money, I don't think they were in the dominant position to negotiate, or that they could buy GRRM so easily. This is his grand project. I don't think he would want to be remembered as the guy who was shamelessly bought by HBO. Tolkien family is pretty inflexible when it is to negotiate JRRT books rights. Even just in money, I'm not sure the HBO deal worth more that the books rights. The show is ephemeral, the books are forever.

I know that Martin said he was scared about the show catching him. His story about the railway and the locomotive. But he didn't do anything serious about finishing his books quickly. So "words are wind".

What you say about HBO make sense. If GRRM realeases the 6th book before season 7, and it is completely different, this will damage the show. I would believe that Martin will wait after the last season to release the next book (at his current pace, he may not even be able to do it before).

That would also explain why GRRM want a film after the HBO series: to fix the true story.

But if GRRM publishes the next book after season 5 or 6, and big secrets are confirmed, then I will have been wrong... But I'm surprised that, as today, there has been no clues, no prophecies, no reference to important past events, that would justify future revelations.

[sj4iy]

Again, I don't know what was the deal, what precise information is public. Certainly they would not advertise that HBO has not the full, unaltered story. But even if HBO had the money, I don't think they were in the dominant position to negotiate, or that they could buy GRRM so easily. This is his grand project. I don't think he would want to be remembered as the guy who was shamelessly bought by HBO. Tolkien family is pretty inflexible when it is to negotiate JRRT books rights. Even just in money, I'm not sure the HBO deal worth more that the books rights. The show is ephemeral, the books are forever.

It may be Martin's 'grand project', but selling the film rights to your books is what makes the real money when it comes to publishing nowadays. HBO wasn't fighting over Martin...D&D were. They had to negotiate with him first, get his permission, THEN go to HBO and see if they would pick up this project. And truthfully, this isn't the kind of project that normally makes a lot of money for a network...fantasy requires a high budget and it's typically a niche product. I don't see how it was ever the case that Martin OR D&D were in a dominant position over HBO. They were very, very limited in who they could approach to make a series full of nudity, murder, sex, rape, graphic violence and mature language...on TOP of having an enormous budget. And the risk involved is enormous...how many fantasy series have ever done well on television? I could count the number on one hand. This was a huge risk for HBO, so I don't see how they were ever in a weak position to negotiate.

I know that Martin said he was scared about the show catching him. His story about the railway and the locomotive. But he didn't do anything serious about finishing his books quickly. So "words are wind".

Well, he stopped scheduling engagements and didn't even write an episode for season 5 or plan a set visit this year. I think that's pretty serious, myself.

What you say about HBO make sense. If GRRM realeases the 6th book before season 7, and it is completely different, this will damage the show. I would believe that Martin will wait after the last season to release the next book (at his current pace, he may not even be able to do it before).

I'm very pessimistic that the next book will come out before season 7. I don't think it's possible for him to finish before the show does.

That would also explain why GRRM want a film after the HBO series: to fix the true story.

Eh, I don't know if it's so much about wanting the 'true story' as it is about just wanting to see his story on the big screen.

But if GRRM publishes the next book after season 5 or 6, and big secrets are confirmed, then I will have been wrong... But I'm surprised that, as today, there has been no clues, no prophecies, no reference to important past events, that would justify future revelations.

I'm not at all surprised by it. One of the rules of making a tv show is to not put something in until it's necessary, and to leave out anything that isn't necessary at all. We have the prophecy about Lightbringer, and we have the prophecy about TSTMTW. We have a few clues, and even some foreshadowing, concerning R+L=J ("You've spent too much time with us, Jon Snow. You can never be a kneeler again"). I think they are saving the past events for when it becomes more relevant to the story. If you introduce something too early, you run the risk of your audience forgetting about it. This is already a very complex show with a lot going on, the last thing you want to do is to bring up something important too early and have your audience completely confused later when they don't remember it.

My personal opinion is that next season will finally start to incorporate a lot of those clues, hints and backstory into the show...we have the perfect set-up for it now. Bran is with BR and can see visions into the past. Melisandre is with Jon Snow and can see things about him in her fires. Plus it gives them the ability to build up to the climax in an exciting way.

[Elessar]

I don't honestly believe the show is going to ruin the books. Christ, look a what they've done already, it only vaguely resembles ASoIaF at all anymore. They're going so far off the rails that it really is becoming it's own thing, and not really in a good way. Sure, great production values, beautiful people dressed in expensive costumes etc. all pretending they're honoring the books. But it's clear they're going to do their own thing now and moving forward. Jaime fighting the sand snakes? Sure, why not, sounds fun!

I barely made it through season 4 and by the end was only watching episodes days after they aired, sometimes longer.

We've been told they know the ending, so what? Doesn't mean they'll do it, and if they do they'll have to invent their own dialogue and we all know how shite they are at that. Once the show passes the books I expect a serious decline in quality as they venture into fan fiction territory. So yeah, not worried about them spoiling the books at all anymore.

The reason the books are always better is because my imagination doesn't suck.

[Le Cygne]

The characters are so different, with so many defining characteristics and moments lost, when they end up in the same places, the ending on the show may come off as sound and fury signifying nothing, so people won't bother to read the final book.

[BalerionTheCat]

Christ, look a what they've done already, it only vaguely resembles ASoIaF at all anymore.

Yes, I totally agree. Whether it is by clumsiness or by special intent from GRRM or HBO, they are completely changing the story. The end result is the same: show and books are different. The show is more and more simplified fan fiction, while GRRM will reveal (my guess) more and more hidden and subtle background stories. The targets naturally diverge.

I'm not concerned anymore by HBO revealing critical elements while missing or changing other important facts. And I don't think the books will suffer too much (at least if there is a movie) from the simplified show story.

[Dragon in the North]

Ellesar, I wouldn't go that far as tot say the show vaguely resembles ASOIAF. They hit all the important climatic moments from the books. Whether or not these did the books justice depends on the individual, but, as of right now, imo, every character is exactly where they should be going into season 5, more or less.

In AFFC, I saw Jaime's arc in the riverlands as a way to get him out of KL before that shit goes down between Cercei and the Faith. Dorne accomplishes the same thing, for better or for worse, again, depends on the individual.

But I'll reserve my judgment until after the season airs. As for the ending, D&D have said that they believe it's the best possible ending for the series, so I can't see them not using it, especially since they paid for it.

[Elessar]

We're either watching two very different shows or reading two very different series.

[sj4iy]

Ellesar, I wouldn't go that far as tot say the show vaguely resembles ASOIAF. They hit all the important climatic moments from the books. Whether or not these did the books justice depends on the individual, but, as of right now, imo, every character is exactly where they should be going into season 5, more or less.

In AFFC, I saw Jaime's arc in the riverlands as a way to get him out of KL before that shit goes down between Cercei and the Faith. Dorne accomplishes the same thing, for better or for worse, again, depends on the individual.

But I'll reserve my judgment until after the season airs. As for the ending, D&D have said that they believe it's the best possible ending for the series, so I can't see them not using it, especially since they paid for it.

This. The details will differ, but the big things will likely stay the same.

[sj4iy]

We're either watching two very different shows or reading two very different series.

Or you simply have very different opinions.

It happens.

[Dragon in the North]

Elessar, that's not an argument.

[Steelborn]

Yes, all the fan-fictions they have created so far were... not the best. So, I'm afraid about the quality after the books are surpassed.

[mediterraneo]

I recognize that Elessar has a point.

A lot of characters' defining motivations are changed or missing in the books. Tyrion kills Tywin without Tysha in the show.
Jaime kills a kin to escape a cell in season two, then quite literally takes Cersei over the White Book in season four.
Euron hasn't been named in the show yet.
Jon wanted to seal the Wall, but then recognizes to Mance that his "500 climbers 5 miles west" would have been impossible to defeat.
Brienne is actually a functional, fortunate seeker, meeting one girl in Westeros in the whole show and having that be Arya Stark.
Rhaegar and Lyanna do not loom over the plot, neither does Varys and Illyrio common motivation.

Depending on what happens this could end up in a very different thing from the books, expecially if the "needs" of simplifying and streamline the complexity of the books' dynamics get to the main plot (I still have to understand what it is...) and to the ending arch.

[FreeParking]

It sounds like most of you might want to stop watching now. A lot of you don't seem to enjoy the show currently. Life is too short to hate-watch something, in my opinion, but to each their own.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

It sounds like most of you might want to stop watching now. A lot of you don't seem to enjoy the show currently. Life is too short to hate-watch something, in my opinion, but to each their own.

Totally agree. As a bookwalker who began as a show-only Unsullied, I see them as the same universe in two different media.

And GRRM disagrees with them. He gave the perfect answer at Comic-Con in his response: "how many children does Scarlett O'Hara have?" Brilliant man. I think he is enjoying the show WHILE writing the novel series his own way.

[Le Cygne]

Scarlett O'Hara had two other kids that had no bearing on the plot. That was a very faithful adaptation by David O. Selznick (from Molly Haskell's, Frankly My Dear: Gone with the Wind Revisited):

[David O. Selznik's] other article of faith was fidelity to the source, especially when the work was as widely read and fresh in people's minds as Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind. To Sidney Howard, the screenwriter, he recommended making large rather than small cuts, in that "minor changes may give us slight improvements, but there will be five or ten million readers on our heads for them, where, for the most part, they will recognize the obvious necessity of our making drastic cuts." He even urged against changes in construction, because "I have learned to avoid trying to improve on success. One never knows what chemicals have gone to make up something that has appealed to millions of people."

I think one good thing to come out of the show telling the ending is GRRM will pack a lot into that 6th book, that's his last chance to tell his own story first, and I bet he's going to make the most of it.

[Dragon in the North]

I recognize that Elessar has a point.

A lot of characters' defining motivations are changed or missing in the books. Tyrion kills Tywin without Tysha in the show.

Jaime kills a kin to escape a cell in season two, then quite literally takes Cersei over the White Book in season four.

Euron hasn't been named in the show yet.

Jon wanted to seal the Wall, but then recognizes to Mance that his "500 climbers 5 miles west" would have been impossible to defeat.

Brienne is actually a functional, fortunate seeker, meeting one girl in Westeros in the whole show and having that be Arya Stark.

Rhaegar and Lyanna do not loom over the plot, neither does Varys and Illyrio common motivation.

Depending on what happens this could end up in a very different thing from the books, expecially if the "needs" of simplifying and streamline the complexity of the books' dynamics get to the main plot (I still have to understand what it is...) and to the ending arch.

I understand that there are deviations from the source material, but I disagree when he says that the show is only vaguely following the books.

[Beric175]

I enjoy both equally for different reasons and most of the changes they made have worked for me. Lets not pretend that Bran and co walking through the snow is more riveting than what they did on the show...

[JonSnowed]

It's clearly just my opinion but I am genuinely amazed people still feel the show will have a different ending. D&D have made it clear they know each main characters arc, they know the ending, the only things which will change will be exactly how they get there and that's because they do not have the space for the detail the books will.

I would say with great confidence the ending of the TV show will be out before the final book and it will be broadly the same. Sure a few minor characters may not be there but if for example Dany kills the nights king while riding Drogon that will be the same in the books and the show. However if Dany has five different lovers in the books she may only have a couple in the show. I know that isn't what some may want to hear but I suspect it's because they have invested so much time and waited so long for each of the books.

[El Guapo]

It's clearly just my opinion but I am genuinely amazed people still feel the show will have a different ending. D&D have made it clear they know each main characters arc, they know the ending, the only things which will change will be exactly how they get there and that's because they do not have the space for the detail the books will. I would say with great confidence the ending of the TV show will be out before the final book and it will be broadly the same. Sure a few minor characters may not be there but if for example Dany kills the nights king while riding Drogon that will be the same in the books and the show. However if Dany has five different lovers in the books she may only have a couple in the show. I know that isn't what some may want to hear but I suspect it's because they have invested so much time and waited so long for each of the books.

It is called denial.