Westeros - Free From Technological Innovation for Millenia

[ManlessFace]

So the first men came to Westeros more than 10,000 years before the books - The Others came in the long night about 8,000 years before the books. Dragon's died out over a hundred years ago, and apparently even before then the maesters were working on creating a world free of magic. Many of the castles the great houses reside in were built thousands of years before and the basic way of life expressed in the series seems generally unchanged over this vast time scale.

My question is then - Why after thousands of years has no one managed to invent anything more advanced than the most basic medieval technology?

There are no lights, no motors, no microchips. I mean, I understand the world the books are cast in, but wouldn't it stand to reason that in 10,000 years of stable human settlement in this area someone would have invented something a little more advanced than a dragonbone bow that can shoot really far?

What are the maesters doing in the citadel that after so long leeching is still an accepted medical practice? That "the substance" remains the only explosive available? It seems like they're just wringing their hands and re-reading the same books their great-grandmaesters read them as kids. The only new works they ever seem to write are histories. The only person really making any contributions to science seems to be Qyburn, and he got the boot.

So if the maesters value learning, why aren't they trying to learn anything new and advance their understanding further? Or if the maesters were founded originally and solely to squash the influence and existence of magic in the world, why after the magic passed away with the others and the dragons did they not even begin concentrating their efforts on making technological advances?

It just seems unlikely, unless the maesters aren't there to promote understanding and advancement, that there has not been at least a maester or 2 that thought about harnessing electricity or something similar. I think that this quest for understanding is just a facade and that the citadel is something akin to the temple of black and white - outwardly expressing a generally accepted image (assassins at the temple of black and white, scholars at the citadel) but beneath the surface the desire of power and influence are the actual motivating factors for the archmaesters and the real reason behind the existence of the citadel.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

Maybe same as in Attack on Titan: the ones with the most power agreed and doesn't allow innovation.

But I like it that way.

[Pino Proxy]

Maybe same as in Attack on Titan: the ones with the most power agreed and doesn't allow innovation.

But I like it that way.

Not sure if spoiler. If it is, then way to go.

[kimim]

That's a good question. It's not that weird, though. Humans were in caves around 30,000 BCE. Neolithic (agricultural) revolution happened nearly 18,000 years after that, and the great civilizations of Africa, the Near East, East Asia don't appear for 8,000 years after the agricultural revolution. From Sumer to the industrial revolution is almost 5,000 years. It's a slow development on our world.

In Westeros, seasons must slow things down. There's also magic, which does what technology does. Greenseers, glass candles function like spy cameras, telephones, etc. so a civilization's energy is split.

[Valyrian Lance]

The political/social structure does not allow for innovation, learning, new ideas, or progress. It was the same in human history.

[Bluetiger]

2-10 years old winters, don't help in it

[juanml82]

The homo genre have been around for 1.8 million years. Civilization has existed since 10,000 BC. Yet by 1400 AD, men had only invented medieval technology and wasn't fooling around with electricity.

Snark comment aside, I think GRRM tried to backtrack his original timeline with all the discussions about how old the world was. But if we take the shortest version of history, which puts the Long Night at some 6,000-4,000 years before the Conquest IIRC, it's not that far from the actual technological development of the real world, and the real world doesn't have years long winters (plus, we should also remember the native Americans were still at the stone age during the 16th Century).

The really weird things are the long duration of feudalism (and we know most of the feudal lords are descendants from petty kings, so it's not like Westeros had feudalism by the time the Andals arrive) and the very long duration of too many of the dynasties, which is a bit of a cultural thing, as many were probably broken many times and some bastard or long lost relative took the name, as Bael the Bard' son or as Harry the Heir is expected to do if Robert Arryn dies.

[Reznak mo Reznak]

because its a fantasy novel

[Bluetiger]

Because it's GRRM's world not Earth. Not everything must be the same. I don't like that people are still comparing things (ex. Yi Ti to China, Valyria to Rome) That is beautiful in GRRM's World that it's so different but still somehow similar :)

[Archmaester Drew]

Technological innovation has always been very slow in human history. Cultural evolution is not a linear process, and there are certain achievements that are gatekeepers to further knowledge and adaptation (e.g., fire, the wheel, sewing, social organization beyond the local group, etc.). On Earth, the institutions of learning were few and insular (like the Citadel) and it was not until the invention of the printing press that knowledge was available to the masses, and more faithfully transmitted from person to person and through time. It was this democratization of information (among other achievements) that allowed humanity to advance our technology as we do today.

These elements are lacking on Planetos -- currently. :)

[Kyll.Ing.]

They have forges and furnaces and are capable of mining iron and melting steel, and they seem to have had this capability for hundreds if not thousands of years. While there seems to be plenty of steel around to make weapons, tools and armour, nobody seem to have thought of making structures out of it yet. Or yet better - steam boilers. At least the Faceless Men seem to be aware of steam's tendency to create pressure, and the use of fires and water to crack rocks has seen use in mining for thousands of years on Earth. We haven't seen the insides of any mines in Westeros yet, but I'm willing to bet they use it too.

The Myrish can craft glass and have discovered optics to make lenses. This as well as mirrors could lead to the making of advanced telescopes within shortly-ish.

The existence of advanced winches such as in crossbows, the Wall Elevator or trebuchets means that some have understadings on basic machines. Water wheels exist too, for instance in mills, so both sources and applications of torque are known.

Some fairly advanced plumbing was used in Winterfell. Dorne's Water Gardens have fountains, so there has to be some plumbing in place there too. Possibly even pumps.

The maesters also seem to dabble in fairly advanced chemistry.

All in all, Westeros seems to be ready for an industrial evolution, but it has been that way for decades, centuries or even millennia. There seems to be no reason for them not to tip over to industrial production methods, but so far it hasn't happened. I'd say "the plot demands it" and leave it at that.

[juanml82]

They have forges and furnaces and are capable of mining iron and melting steel, and they seem to have had this capability for hundreds if not thousands of years. While there seems to be plenty of steel around to make weapons, tools and armour, nobody seem to have thought of making structures out of it yet. Or yet better - steam boilers. At least the Faceless Men seem to be aware of steam's tendency to create pressure, and the use of fires and water to crack rocks has seen use in mining for thousands of years on Earth. We haven't seen the insides of any mines in Westeros yet, but I'm willing to bet they use it too.

The Myrish can craft glass and have discovered optics to make lenses. This as well as mirrors could lead to the making of advanced telescopes within shortly-ish.

The existence of advanced winches such as in crossbows, the Wall Elevator or trebuchets means that some have understadings on basic machines. Water wheels exist too, for instance in mills, so both sources and applications of torque are known.

Some fairly advanced plumbing was used in Winterfell. Dorne's Water Gardens have fountains, so there has to be some plumbing in place there too. Possibly even pumps.

The maesters also seem to dabble in fairly advanced chemistry.

All in all, Westeros seems to be ready for an industrial evolution, but it has been that way for decades, centuries or even millennia. There seems to be no reason for them not to tip over to industrial production methods, but so far it hasn't happened. I'd say "the plot demands it" and leave it at that.

Steam machines require both high quality and cheap steel, else the boilers would explode due the pressure. You're pretty much describing late 15th century Europe, yet the industrial revolution took a few more centuries and, as noted, involved things like cheap books due the printing press, as well as the collapse of the feudal system due the gunpowder military revolution and the rise of the bourgeois.

[Dildo_Baggins]

The frequent harsh winters prevents technological advancements

[Bright Blue Eyes]

It's a wrong impression, similar to the one the people in the Middle Ages had. Born out of lack of proper history classes.

People project their current situation backwards if they don't know better. That's why medieval and renaissance church paintings depict King David as (european) knight in chainmail and the roman legionnaires crucifying Jesus as landsknechts from the 16th century.

The very same happens in Westeros. Coupled with the fact that the dates are off by several magnitudes (did the Andals invade 6,000, 4,000, 2,000 or maybe a mere 1,000 years ago?), that explains this image of stagnation.

But it is pure BS. We witness some advances in technology: Shipbuilding, architecture, metallurgy. Apart from the odd maester, nobody cares enough to notice the big picture, missing the forest for the trees.

[hiemal]

I think it goes further than the crazy seasons- I think that would encourage innovation rather than stifle it. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all.

I suspect that something happened in the remote past (the "second" moon's hatching and pouring forth dragons?) that altered the world in some fundamental way, making the seasons off kilter as well the waxing and waning influence of "magic". Something as intermittently powerful and arbitrary as magic (or sufficiently advanced or alien technology) would confuse scientific efforts to predict the natural world.

.

[Winterfell is Burning]

It's a wrong impression, similar to the one the people in the Middle Ages had. Born out of lack of proper history classes.

People project their current situation backwards if they don't know better. That's why medieval and renaissance church paintings depict King David as (european) knight in chainmail and the roman legionnaires crucifying Jesus as landsknechts from the 16th century.

The very same happens in Westeros. Coupled with the fact that the dates are off by several magnitudes (did the Andals invade 6,000, 4,000, 2,000 or maybe a mere 1,000 years ago?), that explains this image of stagnation.

But it is pure BS. We witness some advances in technology: Shipbuilding, architecture, metallurgy. Apart from the odd maester, nobody cares enough to notice the big picture, missing the forest for the trees.

It's this combined with:

The frequent harsh winters prevents technological advancements

This.

[Yukle]

It's a wrong impression, similar to the one the people in the Middle Ages had. Born out of lack of proper history classes.

People project their current situation backwards if they don't know better. That's why medieval and renaissance church paintings depict King David as (european) knight in chainmail and the roman legionnaires crucifying Jesus as landsknechts from the 16th century.

The very same happens in Westeros. Coupled with the fact that the dates are off by several magnitudes (did the Andals invade 6,000, 4,000, 2,000 or maybe a mere 1,000 years ago?), that explains this image of stagnation.

This is the almost likely reason. The average person in Westeros has no reason to suspect life has ever been any different.

For another thing, we DO KNOW of at least three innovative societies.

Firstly, and most obviously, the Valyrians. However, their incredible progress and advances in both science and technology. However, their civilisation kept its best innovations secret in order to prevent those under their control from using them. When Valyria disappeared, most of its secrets went with it. It seems that the Targaryens either lacked the knowledge, skills or tools needed to preserve all of the secrets.

Secondly: the Andals. It's said that they created ships the First Men never managed and that they used weapons of steel, unlike the bronze that the First Men used. So their mining and smelting techniques must be considerably better.

Thirdly: The Rhoynar. They may have even invented some of what the Valyrians later improved upon. However, they were either subjugated by the Valyrians or fled to Dorne.

[Dorian Martell]

So the first men came to Westeros more than 10,000 years before the books - The Others came in the long night about 8,000 years before the books. Dragon's died out over a hundred years ago, and apparently even before then the maesters were working on creating a world free of magic. Many of the castles the great houses reside in were built thousands of years before and the basic way of life expressed in the series seems generally unchanged over this vast time scale.

My question is then - Why after thousands of years has no one managed to invent anything more advanced than the most basic medieval technology?

There are no lights, no motors, no microchips. I mean, I understand the world the books are cast in, but wouldn't it stand to reason that in 10,000 years of stable human settlement in this area someone would have invented something a little more advanced than a dragonbone bow that can shoot really far?

The Timeline of Westeros is roughly analogous to the accepted timeline of the populating of North Amerca as was tought in the 70's. At the end of the last ice age around 12,000 years ago humans crossed a land bridge (sound familiar) from Siberia to Alaska and within a few centuries had populated the whole of the Americas from the Bering straight to Tierra Del Fuego. The First Nation, for thousands of years before the Europeans showed up did not develop much technology around weapons or transportation. If the Europeans hadn't come they very well might still be hunting with Bows and flaked stone blades and all their metallurgic skill would have stayed purely artistic

[Hardtack]

Kickstarting the industrial revolution requires certain elements to be in place. If Planetos is short on coal, for example, or raw materials for gunpowder are scarce, etc... you never get beyond water, wind, and muscle power in a society dominated by a warrior aristocracy. So no mass produced steel or textiles, standardization is a joke, the middle/upper class is tiny and scholarship is denigrated, etc...

On top of that, the time frame is probably exaggerated and a number of old structures have probably been rebuilt numerous times.

[Biter the Gallant]

Besides many things said above, it is not strange at all that the basics for an invention are given in a culture, but they simply do not make the necessary next step. Working steam machines were known in the Roman Empire, like the one made by Heron of Alexandria, but they remained interesting curiosities for centuries, and though the possibility was known, nobody put real effort to the thing for more than one and a half millenia. During the antiquity there was also a chance to invent windmills (they had the mechanical knowledge, they know of the possibility to make work with the power of the wind) but they simply did not. Etc.