Howland Reed must of used magic at the battle at the Tower of Joy.

[Bryanfury]

Jojen doesn't show any strength of a Crannogman. He shows the strength of the First Men in that he has greensight. Despite Meera's statements about Howland breathing mud and the like, there is no evidence that he has some magic ability to overcome another man. To even entertain the notion that Howland used magic to beat Dayne is silly because there is no evidence that he possesses the magic to do so, let alone that he used it. If it's not worth fussing over you'd accept the illogical nature of considering magic was involve.

[Monctonvike]

Do you watch football? (I'm talking about soccer for all you Americans out there.) occasionally world class teams with famous players that earn hundreds of thousands each week, will have a game in which a very average team beats them 11 on 11. No magic involved.

So seven vs three.

Three experienced swords men one exceptional one.

Seven skilled and experienced warriors.

Yeah Kingsgaurd going down.

Howland probably fought swordsmen regularly with net and spear. Arthur Dayne is used to fighting men with swords or axes. Giving howland another advantage.

Well met :agree:

I do think there is something up with it. If I recall Howland essentially saved Ned's life ( and Ned lived happily ever after lol)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I do think there is something up with it. If I recall Howland essentially saved Ned's life ( and Ned lived happily ever after lol)

I bet Howland Reed tells people that Ned saved his life. They are army buddies, what Ned says about Howland is not different to what many soldiers say about men they served with.

[markg171]

We also have nothing to indicate that Gerold's hand ever healed from having an arrow shot through it. I mean the fact that he's used as a messenger by Aerys kinda indicates that he wasn't the best swordsman anymore. So Gerold probably died first, thus worsening the odds even further.

The only thing we know for sure, is that at least Ned fought Dayne, and Howland intervened some way that allowed Ned to kill him. But we don't know if it was 7 on 1 at that point and Dayne simply cut through all 5 of their companions, or it was 2 on 2 with Ned vs Dayne and Howland vs Whent/Hightower before it became 2 on 1. Hell Dayne could have been the first one killed and it was Whent and Hightower who killed the 5 northerners. We simply know nothing except Ned for sure killed Dayne, and some combination of the fighters killed the rest

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

As good as Ser Arthur may have been, he still was at a deadly disadvantage when fighting more than one person, especially if those people are Howland and Ned.

Ned would probably have kept Arthur occupied with basic sword fighting. It is pretty hard to take on two fighters with a sword honestly. While Ned kept Arthur busy, Howland may have sabotoged him without any magic at all. Maybe just a trip or a shove, or a pitchfork to the back, and Ned stabbing his sword on a fallen Arthur.

Arthur seems kind of a jerk honestly, for trying to kill Ned for rescuing his sister.

[Ser Leftwich]

Actually, we do not know that Ned killed Dayne, only that Arthur is dead (though many would argue that point).

The only thing we have is 2nd or 3rd hand rumors that Ned killed Dayne. Ned never says, "I killed Arthur Dayne."

[chrisdaw]

Ned is perhaps the most skeptical character in the whole series. This would make no sense had he seen Reed do anything magical.

[markg171]

Actually, we do not know that Ned killed Dayne, only that Arthur is dead (though many would argue that point).

The only thing we have is 2nd or 3rd hand rumors that Ned killed Dayne. Ned never says, "I killed Arthur Dayne."

Well we have the rumours, we have Ned growing sad while discussing the fight with Dayne, and we have the fact that Ned had Dayne's sword. Not entirely conclusive obviously, but the rumours were probably started by Stark soldiers or by the wetnurse that Ned brought to Winterfell for Jon who some theorize is Wylla as she would know about the fate of Arthur and Ashara both and would thus be able to start the rumours. Then Ned only gets sad in discussing the death of Arthur as if he had a hand in it, and finally how would he get his sword unless he killed him, and why would he bother to return it unless he's the one who killed the owner?

Never really thought about it, but it's entirely possible that after killing Dayne, Ned fought the rest of the fight with Dawn which would give his side an advantage.

[BrianBoru]

It's not worth arguing over. We'll find out in due course.

Agreed. Let's shut down the entire forum. ;)

[Ser Leftwich]

<snip>

how would he get his sword unless he killed him, and why would he bother to return it unless he's the one who killed the owner?

<snip>

So by this logic, Ned must have killed Lord William Dustin, because Ned had his horse and returned it. No, in both cases it might be because it was the best thing that Ned could do.

It is possible that Ned did kill Arthur Dayne, but the evidence is not conclusive.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Actually, we do not know that Ned killed Dayne, only that Arthur is dead (though many would argue that point).

The only thing we have is 2nd or 3rd hand rumors that Ned killed Dayne. Ned never says, "I killed Arthur Dayne."

Considering how Ned silenced the gossip in Winterfell about Ashara Dayne, I would be inclined to believe that he would have similarly silenced the gossip about him slaying Arthur Dayne if he hadn't. The only real alternative in my mind is that Arthur isn't dead (but I doubt that's the case).

Ther is another point indicating that Howland's unorthodox fighting style might have given him an advantage against Arthur Dayne, from Barristan's chapter The Kingbreaker in Dance:

Larraq as well. The Lash. Ser Barristan did not approve of his fighting style, but there was no doubting his skills. Larraq had years of work ahead of him before he mastered proper knightly weapons, sword and lance and mace, but he was deadly with his whip and trident. The old knight had warned him that the whip would be useless against an armored foe … until he saw how Larraq used it, snapping it around the legs of his opponents to yank them off their feet. No knight as yet, but a fierce fighter.

[BrianBoru]

In the R+L=J thread, Ygrain pointed me to this analysis from MtnLion of the ToJ encounter.

It's a great analysis of the whole sequence at the ToJ. With particular relevance to the current discussion, I find that it shows that the 3KG expected to win the fight, should have won the fight and, by inference, would have won the fight, had it not been for some "unnatural" intervention.

In the form of Howland Reed magic, if I'm going to speculate.

Which I am.

:-)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

He frog-ed him. http://i.imgur.com/TPuwpX7.png

Haha! That's good stuff.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Looking back to Meera's tale of the little crannogman that could, we see some of the unusual attributes of Howland. Speaks to trees, breathes mud etc. The one that stands out is can change earth to water and water to earth. So there's the clue for the demise of Ser Dayne.

Howland made a water puddle for Dayne to slip in and Ned took that advantage.

[The Tower of Almond Joy]

Thanks for that link. I disagree with him however when he said Ned never called Jon his son. When Jon and Robb found the direwolf in the woods, Ned said to Jory "Come let us go see what mischief mmy sons have rooted out now." Not that matters here, it was just my first time being able to disagree with someone lol

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

In the R+L=J thread, Ygrain pointed me to this analysis from MtnLion of the ToJ encounter.

It's a great analysis of the whole sequence at the ToJ. With particular relevance to the current discussion, I find that it shows that the 3KG expected to win the fight, should have won the fight and, by inference, would have won the fight, had it not been for some "unnatural" intervention.

In the form of Howland Reed magic, if I'm going to speculate.

Which I am.

:-)

Nah. OK, let's say the white cloaks were the favorites here. Even if they were, it's just expectation, not something you can take to the bank. Consider any real life contest, be that a tennis match, a boxing match, a poker game, a chess game, whatever. No matter how powerful, how formidable, how so-far-undefeated the champion is, and how weak and outclassed the challenger, no bookie in the universe ever offers "infinity to one" odds. And not out of fear of crannogman magic, I'm almost sure.

[Muggle]

That bad ass walked up to him and put his hands on his hips and shouted. "I BANGED YOUR SISTER" That gave Ned the edge he needed to win the fight.

All jokes aside. I really like the idea Reed married Ashara. And she is living in the Neck.

[ACVG]

Didn't they want to die? They just needed an honorable death. Much like Oakheart. Aerys was dead, Rhaegar was dead, Robert was on the IT, I'm not sure if word traveled that Selmy had bent the knee, Viserys had been spirited away by Darry, and Rhaegars children murdered. What would their fate be?

As they stated to Ned they do not flee, and apparently their knees don't bend easily.

It looks like a lifetime on the black cells or worse.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The battle at the Tower of Joy was more a melee than a duel , no magic just muscle. If Howland had any magic why didn't he use it against his tormentors at the Tourney at Harrenhal .

But then again people have forgotten great warriors the north men are, Rhaegar had two of the King's Guard and four flunkies to capture one little girl , suffering PMS fleeing her brother's wedding .

[Fire Eater]

HR likely used a net. A greatsword like Dawn is especially cumbersome when entangled in a net. I think Dayne had Ned on the ground, and was about to strike the finishing blow until Howland threw a net on him.

Considering how Ned silenced the gossip in Winterfell about Ashara Dayne, I would be inclined to believe that he would have similarly silenced the gossip about him slaying Arthur Dayne if he hadn't. The only real alternative in my mind is that Arthur isn't dead (but I doubt that's the case).

Ther is another point indicating that Howland's unorthodox fighting style might have given him an advantage against Arthur Dayne, from Barristan's chapter The Kingbreaker in Dance:

Good point. I think Barristan might say the same about a net.