The Starks Are Not First Men (Spoilers All)

[kimim]

Wow, I love this, thank you. I'd rather have a thousand ruminations on the ancient history of the Starks and the Others than on R+L=JD whatever. I shall contemplate and perhaps even buy the world book, too, lol.

[Modesty Lannister]

I have no objections to your observations about proto-Valyrians. However, I believe the Ironborn are their descendents. The very geography of the Iron Islands suggests that they may have been once a part of the continent. They resemble Stepstones too much. So, I'd suggest that CotF did cut the Ironborn off Westeros PRIOR to cutting the arm of Dorne. What I find weak in your argument is your conjuncture about the Starks being proto-Valyrian as well. It's too muddled. Gargoyles on castles do not represent any proof of anything. Mance Rayder's story has nothing to do with your argument. The fact gragoyles were not mentioned, does not mean they did not appear on other structures. There is no black oily stone in Winterfell. It exists in the Oldtown and on the Iron Islands, yet you did not suggest that Hightowers may be older than FM, which would make more sense since in TWOIAF it is mentioned that Valyrians tried to establish a collony in Oldtown, but abandoned it. So, yes. Humans did invade Westeros before FM, but I see no link with the Starks in particular. I see the Ironborn as their descendents and possibly the Hightowers as well.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Excellent points!

I love the Mel bit... if the same type of magic is at the heart of all sorcery, probably blood magic... that could explain why her powers grow stronger.

I usually embrace some permutation of Brandon the Builder or the Starks breeding with the COTF and/or Others. I used to think it had to happen during the Long Night... but the stories of the Warg King suggest another method for introducing Warging skills into the Stark line. I doubt BTB is an immediate descendant of Brandon the Bloody Blade (i.e. not his son). But I could see his family intermarrying into the Stark line leading to that story...

This particular theory suggests that he did not lie w/ a female Other and supposes a whole different genesis for them... but I wouldn't rule it out. The blood of Garth seems particularly fertile and that may be a way to permit interbreed in the absence of blood magic...

Your specifics wouldn't fit this theory per se... but there may be variants.

I have not looked extensively into all these underwater races, squishers, selkies etc... but, if ancient peoples are conducting experiments with blood magic... I have no doubt that half human, half sea bests could cross the oceans. House Farwynd is an odd one for instance with supposed warging skills with seals...the Hornfoots also seem more than human.

It will be interesting to see what the "dead things in the water" are capable of at Hardhomme.... wights walking out of the sea... could be interesting....

Yes, our theories diverge and bifurcate at a couple of places, but the spirit of what we both suggest is agreeable in others. I am not necessarily 100% convinced about the Starks and the third race, but I had never previously considered this either. I also believe this twist would be very plot enriching especially for the characters with Stark or Targaryen blood ties.

If your theory were true, could this have implications for control of Ice dragons..

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I have no objections to your observations about proto-Valyrians. However, I believe the Ironborn are their descendents. The very geography of the Iron Islands suggests that they may have been once a part of the continent. They resemble Stepstones too much. So, I'd suggest that CotF did cut the Ironborn off Westeros PRIOR to cutting the arm of Dorne. What I find weak in your argument is your conjuncture about the Starks being proto-Valyrian as well. It's too muddled. Gargoyles on castles do not represent any proof of anything. Mance Rayder's story has nothing to do with your argument. The fact gragoyles were not mentioned, does not mean they did not appear on other structures. There is no black oily stone in Winterfell. It exists in the Oldtown and on the Iron Islands, yet you did not suggest that Hightowers may be older than FM, which would make more sense since in TWOIAF it is mentioned that Valyrians tried to establish a collony in Oldtown, but abandoned it. So, yes. Humans did invade Westeros before FM, but I see no link with the Starks in particular. I see the Ironborn as their descendents and possibly the Hightowers as well.

Although I enjoyed reading this Stark theory, am in agreement with you concerning the IB and possibly Hightowers. Winterfell is also very landlocked, it's like the North Dakota of Westeros and would be very difficult for a seafaring people living in the Ashaii climate to settle that far inland in such a hostile environment. I generally imagine the third race staying near the coastal areas which is where we find almost all of the mysterious black stones.

[Lord Martin]

I have no objections to your observations about proto-Valyrians. However, I believe the Ironborn are their descendents. The very geography of the Iron Islands suggests that they may have been once a part of the continent. They resemble Stepstones too much. So, I'd suggest that CotF did cut the Ironborn off Westeros PRIOR to cutting the arm of Dorne. What I find weak in your argument is your conjuncture about the Starks being proto-Valyrian as well. It's too muddled. Gargoyles on castles do not represent any proof of anything. Mance Rayder's story has nothing to do with your argument. The fact gragoyles were not mentioned, does not mean they did not appear on other structures. There is no black oily stone in Winterfell. It exists in the Oldtown and on the Iron Islands, yet you did not suggest that Hightowers may be older than FM, which would make more sense since in TWOIAF it is mentioned that Valyrians tried to establish a collony in Oldtown, but abandoned it. So, yes. Humans did invade Westeros before FM, but I see not link with the Starks in particular. I see the Ironborn as their descendents and possibly the Hightowers as well.

I don't think were in much disagreement here.

The base of the Hightower and the Seastone chair are linked so I agree these are likely the same peoples that crossed the Sunset Sea. If they landed in the Iron Islands and Old Town, is it hard to believe they also went North?

I agree it would be nice if there was a big oil black stone at the base of Winterfell's First Keep, the crypts or even better the Night Fort. But keep in mind, I am also theorizing that the construction medium changed over time from melted stone to ice....

I'm sorry you don't like the gargoyle connection. Do you think it purely coincidental that they are the only two castles in Westeros that are known to have Gargoyles?

Also sorry you don't like the Asshai connection. But I was using it to suggest travel across the Sunset Sea is possible... you seem to agree that it is, so its not really a disagreement there.

So what is the thematic importance of the Iron Born and Hightowers coming from this race of men?

[Lord Martin]

Its also somewhat interesting that Theon Greyjoy recalls that Theon the Hungry Wolf was his namesake. A very early Stark link to the Ironborn could be quite significant.

Also, one of the next Starks was Brandon the Shipwright who was lost trying to cross the Sunset Sea the other way.... could he have been looking for his most ancient roots?

[PrettyPig]

Also sorry you don't like the Asshai connection. But I was using it to suggest travel across the Sunset Sea is possible... you seem to agree that it is, so its not really a disagreement there.

I think it's not only possible, but also likely that there's a stopping point along the route. Reposting one of my comments from that same Heresy thread:

"It dovetails with my nagging suspicion that long ago Planetos was once in something of a Pangaea/Gondwana situation in which the land masses were significantly closer together and more or less clustered near the top of the planet, making the area of Asshai in particular being in sea voyage proximity to Westeros' northwestern coast. I'm still not convinced that there isn't another separate continent not part of the Known World floating around somewhere in the Sunset Sea, now somewhat midway between Westeros and Ulthos if one were Magellaning the globe - a continent that could have at one time served as a midpoint land bridge for the earliest inhabitants/First Men fleeing....something....out of the East before landing on the western shores and then heading north up the coast."

[Lord Martin]

snip

If your theory were true, could this have implications for control of Ice dragons..

Sure could! Control or the creation of them....

I think it's not only possible, but also likely that there's a stopping point along the route. Reposting one of my comments from that same Heresy thread:

"It dovetails with my nagging suspicion that long ago Planetos was once in something of a Pangaea/Gondwana situation in which the land masses were significantly closer together and more or less clustered near the top of the planet, making the area of Asshai in particular being in sea voyage proximity to Westeros' northwestern coast. I'm still not convinced that there isn't another separate continent not part of the Known World floating around somewhere in the Sunset Sea, now somewhat midway between Westeros and Ulthos if one were Magellaning the globe - a continent that could have at one time served as a midpoint land bridge for the earliest inhabitants/First Men fleeing....something....out of the East before landing on the western shores and then heading north up the coast."

Could be, but I'd like to at least have some textual support for an intermediate land mass.... even just sailors tails. I wouldn't rule it out... its fine suspicion, but I don't see any textual evidence just yet....

[Mithras]

What is good with TWOIAF is that there are so many clues that need to be put together about the stuff of legends. This is a nice wrap up.

I think stone fusing technique involved wildfire rather than dragonfire. I don't think dragons can be used like welding machines on site. But smearing two adjacent blocks of stone with wildfire like glue and igniting it in a controlled manner might work. Or some kind of magic mortar can be made with wildfire. It can be shaped to take any form and when it is burned in a controlled manner, it melts and solidifies into a single piece of stone. After all, we know that the production rate of wildfire is related to dragon presence.

I am definitely in for the Proto-Valyrian existence in Westeros before the First Men idea. But I am not sure that these people were exactly what we can call humans. They might be some humanoid race that resembles the humans, but not quite humans themselves. Valyrian features are definitely inhumane. Daynes also seem to have those traits partially. Starfall, Dawn, the tale of the Bloodstone emperor that worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky etc. seem to be related.

I don’t like to take the CotF as a single group of well-intentioned beings and Starks must be bad for battling wargs, greenseers, and CotF. We know that both the First Men and the CotF were divided into two groups like the hawks and the doves (or tigers and elephants in terms of Volantis). The elephants of both races eventually prevailed and led the way to the Pact. But that does not mean that the tigers were all tamed and transformed into elephants.

I think the boon given to the Last Hero by the CotF might be the gift of skinchanging. If so, I don’t doubt that with time, people started abusing their gifts. Perhaps the Warg King was just like Varamyr, an abomination who lost himself completely. Not every human can handle the gift well.

Here, I also posted about the nature of magic and why it is a big NO for humans. I think the balance can only be restored with wiping out the magic. I feel sympathetic to the anti-magic Citadel Conspiracy.

[Lord Martin]

What is good with TWOIAF is that there are so many clues that need to be put together about the stuff of legends. This is a nice wrap up.

I think stone fusing technique involved wildfire rather than dragonfire. I don't think dragons can be used like welding machines on site. But smearing two adjacent blocks of stone with wildfire like glue and igniting it in a controlled manner might work. Or some kind of magic mortar can be made with wildfire. It can be shaped to take any form and when it is burned in a controlled manner, it melts and solidifies into a single piece of stone. After all, we know that the production rate of wildfire is related to dragon presence.

I am definitely in for the Proto-Valyrian existence in Westeros before the First Men idea. But I am not sure that these people were exactly what we can call humans. They might be some humanoid race that resembles the humans, but not quite humans themselves. Valyrian features are definitely inhumane. Daynes also seem to have those traits partially. Starfall, Dawn, the tale of the Bloodstone emperor that worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky etc. seem to be related.

I don’t like to take the CotF as a single group of well-intentioned beings and Starks must be bad for battling wargs, greenseers, and CotF. We know that both the First Men and the CotF were divided into two groups like the hawks and the doves (or tigers and elephants in terms of Volantis). The elephants of both races eventually prevailed and led the way to the Pact. But that does not mean that the tigers were all tamed and transformed into elephants.

I think the boon given to the Last Hero by the CotF might be the gift of skinchanging. If so, I don’t doubt that with time, people started abusing their gifts. Perhaps the Warg King was just like Varamyr, an abomination who lost himself completely. Not every human can handle the gift well.

Here, I also posted about the nature of magic and why it is a big NO for humans. I think the balance can only be restored with wiping out the magic. I feel sympathetic to the anti-magic Citadel Conspiracy.

Thanks Mithras, always appreciate your take.

But I have to ask, where's the support for Wildfyre being used to create the dragonstones? I think the world book unambiguously tells us how dragonstone is made:

The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite…

The fused black stone of which it is made suggests Valyria, but the plain, unadorned style of architecture does not, for the dragonlords loved little more than twisting stone into strange, fanciful, and ornate shapes. Within, the narrow, twisting, windowless passages strike many as being tunnels rather than halls; it is very easy to get lost amongst their turnings. Mayhaps this is no more than a defensive measure designed to confound attackers, but it too is singularly un-Valryian.

This isn't even one of those situations where some maesters go one way and others another way... I'd be more inclined to support the wildfyre suggestion if there was some text for it...

But I am okay with these hypothetical ancestors not being 100% human as we know them today. There are many human-like races from the Ibbenese and the Sothyri to the Hornfoot Men and the people of the 1,000 Islands. It could actually account for the existence of the Others, a human-like species in need of an explanation as to how it branched off...

The disunity of the COTF is also interesting... it makes good sense that they would have rival factions and parties, especially if there are disputes about what weirwood visons show.... but I'd like to know more about the potential issue splits before delving into too much guesswork...

[kimim]

Sure could! Control or the creation of them....

Could be, but I'd like to at least have some textual support for an intermediate land mass.... even just sailors tails. I wouldn't rule it out... its fine suspicion, but I don't see any textual evidence just yet....

There's the landmass described by Farwynd at the Ironborn kingsmoot. That fits with their Viking similarities--Vikings "discovered" North America before other Europeans did. Of course that still doesn't mean that travel from Westeros to Essos by heading west would be impossible.

[Lord Martin]

There's the landmass described by Farwynd at the Ironborn kingsmoot. That fits with their Viking similarities--Vikings "discovered" North America before other Europeans did. Of course that still doesn't mean that travel from Westeros to Essos by heading west would be impossible.

I forgot about that.... nice point... The Farwynds certainly seem to have retained some magical abilities, so perhaps they have stories of the crossing passed down over time...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

True, but it could be direct also. And why else mention that the silk is from Asshai? Surely red silk from anywhere would be very rare north of the wall.

I would think there could be a lot of reasons for the silk having to be from Asshai, for instance a tie to Mel. Or maybe the only place they make scarlet silk on Planetos is Asshai. There's a reason GRRM calls Lannister red crimson, and never scarlet.

Scarlet is a particular shade of red only used in descriptions of two people's clothing in the series and associated books: Mance Rayder, and Brynden Targaryen aka Bloodraven--smoke and scarlet for both. If Mance is descended from Bloodraven, and Mel (who is from Asshai) is either Sheira Seastar or Sheira's daughter by Bloodraven, that's a very good reason to bring Asshai'i silk in to the mix.

This could even play into your theory actually.

[Modesty Lannister]

I don't think were in much disagreement here.

The base of the Hightower and the Seastone chair are linked so I agree these are likely the same peoples that crossed the Sunset Sea. If they landed in the Iron Islands and Old Town, is it hard to believe they also went North?

I agree it would be nice if there was a big oil black stone at the base of Winterfell's First Keep, the crypts or even better the Night Fort. But keep in mind, I am also theorizing that the construction medium changed over time from melted stone to ice....

I'm sorry you don't like the gargoyle connection. Do you think it purely coincidental that they are the only two castles in Westeros that are known to have Gargoyles?

Also sorry you don't like the Asshai connection. But I was using it to suggest travel across the Sunset Sea is possible... you seem to agree that it is, so its not really a disagreement there.

So what is the thematic importance of the Iron Born and Hightowers coming from this race of men?

It is not the question of my personal preference, but of something being textually based. The existence of proto-Valyrians and their attempt to establish a colony in Old Town is a part of TWOIAF, so it is obvious. The existence of two ancient artefacts made of the same material is also evident and it was evident to careful readers long before TWOIAF. So, a link can be made. Linking the Starks to all that is more than a stretch. Also, your pre/post-Long Night timeline is a speculation made to fit your theory and is textually unsupported.

I completely understand your wish to make a connection between two magical families. Parallels do exist. The Starks also tried to contain their bloodline, married close relatives and/or other northern families. When they ventured to find a bride outside the north, they only turned to families descending from the FIRST MEN. Even in modern times. Starks married only Royces from the Vale. Brandon was supposed to marry Catelyn Tully while we can speculate Eddard was meant to marry Ashara Dayne. Tullies and Daynes are all descendants of the First Men. And that is where another weakness of your theory lies. While Valyrians were interbreeding, Starks were marrying into the bloodlines of the first men. Also, deformed and/or stillborn babies are almost a norm in a Valyrian marriage. Not so with the Starks.

However, it is notable that the King who Knelt to Aegon the Conqueror did not even attempt to fight. That was very un-Stark of him. Yes, negotiations were ongoing, but in the end, the Stark bent the knee to Aegon. To me, the event looked more like a reunion than a potential conflict. And Jojen and Meera swear by "ice and fire". We may speculate that the oath they swore to Bran is mirroring the ancient pact between CotF and the FM. So, ice and fire are in the Pact. And a much later pact between the Starks and the Targaryens is called openly the Pact of Ice and Fire. So, we may argue two magical families have met before… way before written history. However, being Valyrian means being connected to the element of fire, not ice.

So, if we agree that proto-Valyrians did exist in Westeros before the Pact, it stands to reason that the Pact was the reason they left. The stuck to their region of fire and the global balance was restored. The Ironborn obviously didn't want to leave and were severed from the rest of the continent. If Starks were of Valyrian origin, why would they mistrust their cousins (Ironborn) so.

I'd digress a bit and offer a maybe interesting thought. Rhaegar Targaryen (who devoted his childhood to reading and learning lore) married Elia Martell. She is a descendent of the First Men and Rhoynar. The latter possessed the knowledge of the water magic and were sworn enemies of Valyrians. Then he married Lyanna Stark. And married her he did. He abducted her and according to the ancient customs of the First Men, that is a marriage. And Lyanna is an offspring of the most potent magical family connected to ice. Let me remind you that ice is water as well and water, as we know, puts down the fire. So, effectively, Rhaegar was creating a new breed of magical humans that possess both water (ice) and fire magical properties. Did he believe these children would restore a balance in the world unbalanced by Doom? It is likely.

But he was not the first Targaryen to go down that path. Bloodraven is as close you ever got to an offspring of ice and fire. He is a son of a Targaryen king and a Blackwood lady. He ended up becoming a greenseer, mastering the magic of CotF - earth magic. There is no record of Valyrians attacking CotF (apart from the Ironborn who evidently had a war with them). But, if we count the Ironborn as a proto-Valyrians, then, like Rhaegar, Bloodraven was making a blood alliance with the ancient enemy. In his case blood alliance should be seen through him merging himself with a weirwood tree.

Finally, what is Daenerys doing? She is liberating slaves. Valyrians were the most notorious slavers in history.

Is it a coincidence that three apparently unrelated (in terms of ever meeting in person) Targaryens are all trying to make peace with former enemies, correct ancient injustices and restore global balance? Unlikely.

Unlike most readers, I do not believe the Others represent the real danger. It is a long story, but I do think Jon Snow will be leading the Others into the final battle against the real enemy that is coming from the sea. And creatures who are savvy in water (ice) and earth magic will have to join creatures who know a thing or two about fire magic in order to prevail and restore the balance.

ETA: Great thread and well thought through posts all around from OP onwards. Rare these days. We don't have to agree, but we have to respect each other's efforts.

[Ser Creighton]

I have seen this like others addressed before. I am not sure why the question of traveling from Asshai to Westeros matters though. Clearly it is possible all you need is a ship or legs. People trade with Asshai all the time as the World book points out.

Now it could be that you had multiple factions of first men. Or it could be they predate thefirst men, many of the histories we are given show that there were races of men or being in different parts of the world that are no longer there.

I would suggest that the Oily blackstone comes from an era, probably the Era of the Bloodstone Emperor and I suspect he founded Asshai. Though he was clearly not the first Emperor. Now he may have gone as far west as the Iron Islands or as far east, it depends where you are standing or which direction you sail. Now if true did those ships go in search of land, were they running or were they chasing?

With the changing of the color of the wall I would suggest light, as it is pointed out in the books and large amounts of ice which is water will change color depending on the light.

If you look closely and I have spoken about this before, Asshai and the Lands of always winter are mirrored parallel an inverse of eachother.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125430-rlj-v134/page-6

Post 118.

If you recall the Bloodstone Emperor is from the era of the Long night. In fact he ushered it in and was in conflict with the Lion of Night.

The building of the wall is similar to how Valyrians could bend stone to their will. Could be, but according to Martin that is exactly what the Valyrians could do and this magic would be learned from the Others. Or as you say perhaps man became the Others. Whatever it is the Others will mirror the story of Asshai, and you have ask yourself at some point where is the worlds second pole? Where is the Antartica. It gets warmer and warmer the further you head south which is wrong. It sould get colder when you get very far south not warmer.

My guess is the two hearts, the Heart of shadows and the Heart of Winter are actually black and white stones from the moons. One from a black moon and one fron the white moon where the two impacted. Man used blood sacrifice with these and you got some sort of magic one favoring Ice and one Fire. The two have a sort of eternal conflict.

The Night King and Queen may also represent aspects of this duality.

The Others themselves probably come from man much like a Shadowbiinder does and has been corrupted by magic. You often find in the story a trinity effect. Sun and Moon = Dragons. Maiden made of light and the Lion of Night = God Emperor, Azor and Nissa = Lightbringer. I suspect in every case it is always the unity of oppostion that seeks balance between the two oppositions. It seems to always come down to these oppositions unifying at some point and then the cycle starts over as you will find Mirrored history always repeating in one way or another.

[PrettyPig]

There's the landmass described by Farwynd at the Ironborn kingsmoot. That fits with their Viking similarities--Vikings "discovered" North America before other Europeans did. Of course that still doesn't mean that travel from Westeros to Essos by heading west would be impossible.

Yes, this is what gave me the initial idea, but iirc there are one or two other references to something "beyond" as well. I don't have the quotes and I can't recall if they are from the First Five or the WB, though.

[Ser Creighton]

I would think there could be a lot of reasons for the silk having to be from Asshai, for instance a tie to Mel. Or maybe the only place they make scarlet silk on Planetos is Asshai. There's a reason GRRM calls Lannister red crimson, and never scarlet.

Scarlet is a particular shade of red only used in descriptions of two people's clothing in the series and associated books: Mance Rayder, and Brynden Targaryen aka Bloodraven--smoke and scarlet for both. If Mance is descended from Bloodraven, and Mel (who is from Asshai) is either Sheira Seastar or Sheira's daughter by Bloodraven, that's a very good reason to bring Asshai'i silk in to the mix.

This could even play into your theory actually.

Good catch about Bloodraven and Mance.

[Lord Martin]

I would think there could be a lot of reasons for the silk having to be from Asshai, for instance a tie to Mel. Or maybe the only place they make scarlet silk on Planetos is Asshai. There's a reason GRRM calls Lannister red crimson, and never scarlet.

Scarlet is a particular shade of red only used in descriptions of two people's clothing in the series and associated books: Mance Rayder, and Brynden Targaryen aka Bloodraven--smoke and scarlet for both. If Mance is descended from Bloodraven, and Mel (who is from Asshai) is either Sheira Seastar or Sheira's daughter by Bloodraven, that's a very good reason to bring Asshai'i silk in to the mix.

This could even play into your theory actually.

Interesting catch on the color. Though its curious that Jon Snow mis-remembers that bit:

They could have let him keep his cloak, Jon Snow thought, the one the wildling woman patched with strips of crimson silk.

But if you are correct about Scarlet, that would be an interesting tie in there.... certainly quite possible... I really like B+S=M. The idea that BR could be Mance's father does have some appeal... though I'm not sure what yet. And why hasn't Mormont's Raven acted strangely around Mance since its warged by BR? The Raven says "blood" twice when in the presence of Mel, furthering the B+S=M theory. But why say "blood" for one relative and not the other.

But you are right, this does thematically play in with Asshai and the Far North in another way... BR fathering children in both places....

[Modesty Lannister]

Interesting catch on the color. Though its curious that Jon Snow mis-remembers that bit:

But if you are correct about Scarlet, that would be an interesting tie in there.... certainly quite possible... I really like B+S=M. The idea that BR could be Mance's father does have some appeal... though I'm not sure what yet. And why hasn't Mormont's Raven acted strangely around Mance since its warged by BR? The Raven says "blood" twice when in the presence of Mel, furthering the B+S=M theory. But why say "blood" for one relative and not the other.

But you are right, this does thematically play in with Asshai and the Far North in another way... BR fathering children in both places....

Bloodraven fathering Mance would mean that he had a wildling lover since BR is 125 years old at the moment. Mance cannot be much older than Eddard Stark, but even if he was 10 years older, that would make him born around 253AC. Bloodraven arrived at the Wall in 233AC as a prisoner and a part of a huge group of inmates that escorted maester Aemon to the Wall. So, unless Mance is almost 70 years old, he cannot possibly be a child of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar. Also, Shiera was born between 178 and 184 AC. Therefore, if Mance was 70 and was born in 230 AC, she would be at least 46 at the time of his birth. Not likely at all.

[Lord Martin]

It is not the question of my personal preference, but of something being textually based. The existence of proto-Valyrians and their attempt to establish a colony in Old Town is a part of TWOIAF, so it is obvious. The existence of two ancient artefacts made of the same material is also evident and it was evident to careful readers long before TWOIAF. So, a link can be made. Linking the Starks to all that is more than a stretch.

I guess I don't ascribe to inclusio unus est exclusio alterius in this situation. The world book is providing us with new information in this respect. So sure, the presence of a people in Old Town is now made "obvious" but its also new and enlightening to us. The logical question is then, what other possibilities does this open up? This is a situation of absence of proof not proof of absence.

Also, your pre/post-Long Night timeline is a speculation made to fit your theory and is textually unsupported.

I actually couldn't make this fit my theory. The key is that the alleged true telling makes no sense. We have all these stories of Starks warring on the COTF which seems impossible for multiple reasons: 1) that makes the Starks Pact violators and 2) there were no Starks til after the Long Night. So did all those Stark wars take place after the Long Night? If so, why turn on the COTF? None of it makes any sense...

What makes a lot more sense is that history was very sloppily revised by the victors but bits of the truth linger....

ETA: Great thread and well thought through posts all around from OP onwards. Rare these days. We don't have to agree, but we have to respect each other's efforts.

You sort of lost me with the rest. There are a lot of loose strings in this story and they can be woven together in multiple ways and I appreciate your efforts as well.