Middle East and North Africa 18

[Dicer]

Netanyahu has won on a platform of no state for the Palestinians and racism against the Arabs living in Israel.

http://coreyrobin.com/2015/03/19/it-breaks-my-heart-to-say-this-but-today-i-dont-feel-i-can-call-myself-a-zionist-any-longer/

Netanyahu calls out just before the election that he will make sure there is no Palestinian state and the response far from the utter rejection of this suggestion for which I and many others had hoped was an overwhelming endorsement of him by the Jewish voters of Israel: and certainly by its Zionist voters. Set aside the Joint List, for which very few Jews (and virtually no Zionist Jews), voted. Of the remaining 106 Knesset seats, 67 went to parties that either actively agree with Netanyahu or are indifferent enough to his views on this issue that they are willing to sit in coalition with him. Which is to say: about TWO-THIRDS of the Jewish vote essentially said, We are happy to end the peace process and instead rule over millions of Palestinians indefinitely; we are happy to have them have no vote, ever, either in their own state or in ours. Which is to say, in what turned out to be as close to a referendum on the peace process and the two-state solution as we are ever likely to get, two-thirds of Israels Jews have just voted for the undemocratic version of the one-state solution: Israel has become, this week, the Herrenvolk ethnocracy its detractors have accused it of long being.

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/netanyahu-won-what

There wll be no more endless cycles of pointless negotiations with Israel pretending that some day it will agree to a two-state solution while continually escalating both settlement (colony) building and the maltreament of the Palestinians. Now everyone will see that the Palestinians were right all along and that Israel has never been a partner for negotiations.

Israels pathological siege mentality will now become more pronounced and more evident to outsiders. Israel has for a long time been readying itself for when the time comes, to bunker down, live with austerity and give up the fancy lifestyle the country has become increasingly accustomed to in the last 20-25 years

I am therefore worried about the Palestinians and wonder how much more of this they could possibly take and what they can expect in the next few months and years. Israel isolating itself is more dangerous for the Palestinians because world public opinion will no longer be a moderating factor on Israels behaviour. Gaza gives you the idea of what Israel has in mind for all Palestinians.

I think we will see an increased slaughter of the Palestinians and more imprisonment, abuse and torture.

In regard to alleged increase in antisemitism on college campuses, this is interesting:

Student who put swastika on Jewish fraternity board is caught. The student happened to be Jewish.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/03/18/another-swastika-at-gw-this-one-was-posted-by-a-jewish-student/?wpisrc=nl_buzz

Free speech that can incite violence in Muslim communities is okay because free speech should be protected at all costs but ads highlighting the plight of the Palestinians in Seattle is banned because it may spark threats of vandalism and violence.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4638631,00.html

Showing why all this talk of free speech by the west is a load of stinking horse crap.

The UN is worthless and continues to support human rights abuses, but we already knew that:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/17/un-officials-accused-buckling-israeli-pressure-childrens-rights-list

Senior UN officials in Jerusalem have been accused of caving in to Israeli pressure to abandon moves to include the states armed forces on a UN list of serious violators of childrens rights.

UN officials backed away from recommending that the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) be included on the list following telephone calls from senior Israeli officials. The Israelis allegedly warned of serious consequences if a meeting of UN agencies and NGOs based in Jerusalem to ratify the recommendation went ahead. Within hours, the meeting was cancelled

[Dicer]

LOL! This is just so ridiculously hilarious. Thomas Friedman writes an op-ed in the NYT asking why the US is not arming ISIS to fight Iran?!

http://crooksandliars.com/2015/03/thomas-friedman-wants-arm-isis

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/opinion/go-ahead-ruin-my-day.html?smid=tw-TomFriedman&seid=auto&_r=4&referrer

Obviously, I abhor ISIS and don’t want to see it spread or take over Iraq. I simply raise this question rhetorically because no one else is: Why is it in our interest to destroy the last Sunni bulwark to a total Iranian takeover of Iraq? Because the Shiite militias now leading the fight against ISIS will rule better? Really?

And someone has the perfect response:

He simply raises the question rhetorically, dontcha know. I mean, somebody's got to ask it, amirite? Why aren't we arming ISIS? (Well, we are actually, but only because they've managed to seize tons of weaponry we left in Iraq after foolishly invading the country to, as Friedman famously said, teach those silly middle easterners that we had to the power to shove a gun in their mouth and tell them to "suck on this.")

I know it's hard to believe, but maybe it would be better if we concentrate on not arming anyone in the region for a while --- or blowing anything up, or "advising" anyone or putting boots on the ground or anything else. We don't seem to accomplish anything by doing it except make things worse. In fact, the only intervention at this point that makes any sense at all is a negotiated deal to keep Iran from developing a nuclear weapon. We just don't have a very good history of keeping straight in our heads who the "good guys" and the "bad guys" are. (Mujahadeen anyone?) Maybe it's best we keep a little distance this time.

Maybe some day it will occur to our Very Serious People that invading and/or "arming" people in complicated conflicts halfway across the world isn't really our strong suit. Unfortunately, it's just as likely the US is going to continue to believe the fatuous notion that the "exceptional" US is the one "indispensable" nation and therefore must always be right in the middle of everything. It's always all about us. Perhaps we should consider that a sectarian fight between Shia and Suni Islam is just a tad above our pay grade.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.in/2015/03/objectively-pro-isis.html

[The Once and Future King]

Netanyahu has won on a platform of no state for the Palestinians and racism against the Arabs living in Israel.

http://coreyrobin.com/2015/03/19/it-breaks-my-heart-to-say-this-but-today-i-dont-feel-i-can-call-myself-a-zionist-any-longer/

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/netanyahu-won-what

I think we will see an increased slaughter of the Palestinians and more imprisonment, abuse and torture.

In regard to alleged increase in antisemitism on college campuses, this is interesting:

Student who put swastika on Jewish fraternity board is caught. The student happened to be Jewish.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/03/18/another-swastika-at-gw-this-one-was-posted-by-a-jewish-student/?wpisrc=nl_buzz

Free speech that can incite violence in Muslim communities is okay because free speech should be protected at all costs but ads highlighting the plight of the Palestinians in Seattle is banned because it may spark threats of vandalism and violence.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4638631,00.html

Showing why all this talk of free speech by the west is a load of stinking horse crap.

The UN is worthless and continues to support human rights abuses, but we already knew that:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/17/un-officials-accused-buckling-israeli-pressure-childrens-rights-list

The first Article you posted besides being the most Ridiculous thing ive read today, says based off a misqoute of Bibi that evrey party in his future coalition agrees with him. Which is ridiculous. Israel has gone above and beyond what any country in history has done to placate an enemy that has been trying to wipe thwm out long before there were disputed territories and long before there state was born.

What Bibi said was as long as the P.A. condones the terror and is joined with a terror organization he refuses to enter negotiations.

Thats no different than obama refusing to negotiate with ISIS. Because democracies dont negotiate with terrorists.

[The Fallen]

I'm of the belief that Palestinian leadership has let their people down. The Land for Peace deal was squandered by the Palestinians. I also believe in Israel's right to exist.

But the stories coming out of the West Bank and Gaza are horrendous and indefensible. It really makes Israel look bad.

I still believe that Palestinians should stop all attacks on Israel and use the U.N. and public opinion to both make Israel look bad and get the world on their side in putting pressure on Israel. But in order for this to work the Palestinians have to commit to go the peaceful route. It can't be temporary. They would also have to drop the 'Right of Return'. Instead they should demand reparations for all property and wealth lost during the creation of Israel and since then, which could then be used in the formation of a new Palestinian state. (I'm not sure if reparations have been previously paid.) And of course they would receive additional aid from the U.S. and the west. And Israel would have to demolish the new settlements, which they've done in the past.

Lastly, let's not forget that the Palestinians aren't stateless because of Israel. They've always been denied their own state by their neighbors, to the point that the PLO tried to assasinate King Hussein of Jordan and were eventually driven from Jordan.

[The King in Black]

Thats no different than obama refusing to negotiate with ISIS. Because democracies dont negotiate with terrorists.

:bs: Now that's the most ridiculous thing I've read today

[The King in Black]

I once read an article explaining that India and Israel get away with their shit in Kashmir and Palestine because the world is inherently biased towards ' poor victim countries of cross-border islamic radicals ' , but atleast India gets periodically taken to task (though admittedly less so since Pakistan and their cronies went full retard ) while Israel, thanks to Godfather USA (more specifically those lobbies of theirs in Israel ) has always gotten away with everything. Never even slapped on the wrists

[aceluby]

I'm of the belief that Palestinian leadership has let their people down. The Land for Peace deal was squandered by the Palestinians. I also believe in Israel's right to exist.

But the stories coming out of the West Bank and Gaza are horrendous and indefensible. It really makes Israel look bad.

I still believe that Palestinians should stop all attacks on Israel and use the U.N. and public opinion to both make Israel look bad and get the world on their side in putting pressure on Israel. But in order for this to work the Palestinians have to commit to go the peaceful route. It can't be temporary. They would also have to drop the 'Right of Return'. Instead they should demand reparations for all property and wealth lost during the creation of Israel and since then, which could then be used in the formation of a new Palestinian state. (I'm not sure if reparations have been previously paid.) And of course they would receive additional aid from the U.S. and the west. And Israel would have to demolish the new settlements, which they've done in the past.

Lastly, let's not forget that the Palestinians aren't stateless because of Israel. They've always been denied their own state by their neighbors, to the point that the PLO tried to assasinate King Hussein of Jordan and were eventually driven from Jordan.

The problem with this is that they've gone down this route before. They stop attacks, they adhere to everything in their cease fires, and the media goes away because there is 'peace'. Then when the cameras are gone and everything has died down a bit, the need for Israel to expand comes on again, they take what they want at gunpoint, the media doesn't cover anything, Palestinians are imprisoned, tortured, and killed; and when Palestinians retaliate in any way they are 'terrorists' who cannot be reasoned with and will not negotiate. Then the media shows up for the thousands of civilians killed in the retaliation, and the cycle starts again.

It's funny, when you steal people's homes out from under them that they have lived in for 50 years, they tend to get angry enough to fight back. If it happened in the US there would be no question that retaliation would be justified, but because these are scary mooslems and the attackers the Israeli govt who we back, somehow the rules of engagement don't really matter.

[Malik Ambar]

I once read an article explaining that India and Israel get away with their shit in Kashmir and Palestine because the world is inherently biased towards ' poor victim countries of cross-border islamic radicals ' , but atleast India gets periodically taken to task (though admittedly less so since Pakistan and their cronies went full retard ) while Israel, thanks to Godfather USA (more specifically those lobbies of theirs in Israel ) has always gotten away with everything. Never even slapped on the wrists

Kashmir and Palestine have nothing in common

[Mr Fixit]

The problem with this is that they've gone down this route before. They stop attacks, they adhere to everything in their cease fires, and the media goes away because there is 'peace'. Then when the cameras are gone and everything has died down a bit, the need for Israel to expand comes on again, they take what they want at gunpoint, the media doesn't cover anything, Palestinians are imprisoned, tortured, and killed; and when Palestinians retaliate in any way they are 'terrorists' who cannot be reasoned with and will not negotiate. Then the media shows up for the thousands of civilians killed in the retaliation, and the cycle starts again.

It's funny, when you steal people's homes out from under them that they have lived in for 50 years, they tend to get angry enough to fight back. If it happened in the US there would be no question that retaliation would be justified, but because these are scary mooslems and the attackers the Israeli govt who we back, somehow the rules of engagement don't really matter.

Nicely stated. Does anyone today really believe that the Palestinians are the main culprit for the failure of the peace process? While they are by no means innocent, and generally have a shitty and corrupt leadership, there is exactly one main reason we're still in this mess: Israel's unwillingness to negotiate a two-state solution. All these years their "commitment" to it was only a masquerade to show Israel really truly wants to deal with those Palies if only they could get their shit together. But everyone knew what it was: a land grab and slow ethnic cleansing in preparation for the establishment of "Greater Israel" one day down the road when enough Palestinians leave so they no longer present a demographic danger.

But things are definitely getting interesting. Israel is feeling ever more cornered and isolated, one by one even European countries are slowly turning against them. Response? Predictably, ratchet up the rhetoric and body count. I personally believe this is the best time to exert ever more pressure on Israel. Of course with the US participating in Israeli atrocities, and having its back, we'll see how it goes.

[The Once and Future King]

The problem with this is that they've gone down this route before. They stop attacks, they adhere to everything in their cease fires, and the media goes away because there is 'peace'. Then when the cameras are gone and everything has died down a bit, the need for Israel to expand comes on again, they take what they want at gunpoint, the media doesn't cover anything, Palestinians are imprisoned, tortured, and killed; and when Palestinians retaliate in any way they are 'terrorists' who cannot be reasoned with and will not negotiate. Then the media shows up for the thousands of civilians killed in the retaliation, and the cycle starts again.

It's funny, when you steal people's homes out from under them that they have lived in for 50 years, they tend to get angry enough to fight back. If it happened in the US there would be no question that retaliation would be justified, but because these are scary mooslems and the attackers the Israeli govt who we back, somehow the rules of engagement don't really matter.

So how do you explain away attacking Israel in 48 or 67? How the 1838 Hebron Massacre? The 1928 Safed Progrom? Saying that the terror in Israel is because of settlers is just ignorant.

Arafat who personally murder Jews in the 40s was offered everything he asked for. He refused. President Clinton, a Man who had an actual shot at creating peace in the middle east, said the he gave up the best shot at getting state.

Sharon withdrew from Shomron leaving behind infrastructure, farms and water systems. The answer was to elect a terror organization as the goverment who promptly burned the farms and blew up the infrastructure.

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice, you can't fool me twice. I wont be fooled again. And Netanyahu is no fool

[Shryke]

Nicely stated. Does anyone today really believe that the Palestinians are the main culprit for the failure of the peace process? While they are by no means innocent, and generally have a shitty and corrupt leadership, there is exactly one main reason we're still in this mess: Israel's unwillingness to negotiate a two-state solution. All these years their "commitment" to it was only a masquerade to show Israel really truly wants to deal with those Palies if only they could get their shit together. But everyone knew what it was: a land grab and slow ethnic cleansing in preparation for the establishment of "Greater Israel" one day down the road when enough Palestinians leave so they no longer present a demographic danger.

But things are definitely getting interesting. Israel is feeling ever more cornered and isolated, one by one even European countries are slowly turning against them. Response? Predictably, ratchet up the rhetoric and body count. I personally believe this is the best time to exert ever more pressure on Israel. Of course with the US participating in Israeli atrocities, and having its back, we'll see how it goes.

It's changing slowly. The "problem" with a democracy is that the will of the people has alot of influence and Israel for various reasons still has very good PR in the US.

Though Bibi is doing his best to scuttle this.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ace,

The problem with this is that they've gone down this route before. They stop attacks, they adhere to everything in their cease fires, and the media goes away because there is 'peace'. Then when the cameras are gone and everything has died down a bit, the need for Israel to expand comes on again, they take what they want at gunpoint, the media doesn't cover anything, Palestinians are imprisoned, tortured, and killed; and when Palestinians retaliate in any way they are 'terrorists' who cannot be reasoned with and will not negotiate. Then the media shows up for the thousands of civilians killed in the retaliation, and the cycle starts again.

It's funny, when you steal people's homes out from under them that they have lived in for 50 years, they tend to get angry enough to fight back. If it happened in the US there would be no question that retaliation would be justified, but because these are scary mooslems and the attackers the Israeli govt who we back, somehow the rules of engagement don't really matter.

So, how do you propose to find a way to peace?

[aceluby]

Ace,

So, how do you propose to find a way to peace?

Well, there needs to be moves made by Israel to show they are acting in good faith. Basic things like medical care, food, water, and trade should be made available as a starting point along with the stopping of the expanse into Gaza. Only once Palestine is no longer oppressed can we really judge the actions of their people.

But we know that first step will never happen, so peace in the area can't happen, and Israel will use it as an excuse to continue what they've been doing for the last 5 years; expanding their territory and slaughtering thousands of Palestinians, including children.

[aceluby]

So how do you explain away attacking Israel in 48 or 67? How the 1838 Hebron Massacre? The 1928 Safed Progrom? Saying that the terror in Israel is because of settlers is just ignorant.

Arafat who personally murder Jews in the 40s was offered everything he asked for. He refused. President Clinton, a Man who had an actual shot at creating peace in the middle east, said the he gave up the best shot at getting state.

Sharon withdrew from Shomron leaving behind infrastructure, farms and water systems. The answer was to elect a terror organization as the goverment who promptly burned the farms and blew up the infrastructure.

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice, you can't fool me twice. I wont be fooled again. And Netanyahu is no fool

Seriously? The people living there now had nothing to do with any of those things. Might as well put the entire south into concentration camps because of slavery 150 years ago. Makes about as much sense. How about you start talking about what has happened in the more recent past instead of talking about things that happened 50-150 years agon?

[straits]

Seriously? The people living there now had nothing to do with any of those things. Might as well put the entire south into concentration camps because of slavery 150 years ago. Makes about as much sense. How about you start talking about what has happened in the more recent past instead of talking about things that happened 50-150 years agon?

That might be problematic because looking only at the current affair would ignore why, how and where Israel just happened to be created, and why its existence caused turmoil.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ace,

Here's the problem. Israel has tryed backing away evacuating settlers and offering real peace. The offer was rejected and more violence resulted. Now I do agree that the "kick'em harder" method offered by Netanyahu's government is making things far worse but there needs to be compromise on both side for peace to happen. I haven't see the Palestinians offer anything, including Hamas droping the "Death to Israel" clause.

[Altherion]

So, how do you propose to find a way to peace?

Lasting peace is extremely unlikely on timescales of at least a decade. That said, the American media greatly overestimates the importance of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and this board is much, much worse. If somebody completely unfamiliar with our planet looked at this thread or its predecessor or the American politics thread or the Israeli elections thread, they would get the impression that the single greatest conflict in the Middle East (or perhaps even the world in as a whole) is the one between Israel and the Palestinians -- which is of course complete and utter nonsense. Yes, they have constant skirmishes and yes, it's been going on for a long time, but the conflict is relatively low intensity. It is nothing compared to what is going on in Syria, Iraq or even some of the supposedly peaceful areas of the Middle East. For example, just today over a hundred people were killed in Yemen, but this is apparently much less newsworthy than an Israeli politician being... well, a politician.

[ljkeane]

Ace,

Here's the problem. Israel has tryed backing away evacuating settlers and offering real peace. The offer was rejected and more violence resulted. Now I do agree that the "kick'em harder" method offered by Netanyahu's government is making things far worse but there needs to be compromise on both side for peace to happen. I haven't see the Palestinians offer anything, including Hamas droping the "Death to Israel" clause.

That's not a particularly unbiased reading of the situation Scot. Given they have rather a lot less to offer in the first place since Israel holds most of the cards the PLO has offered a fair amount over the years, including recognition of Israel and years of working relatively peacefully along side Israel in the West Bank.

You can argue about whether they should have accepted various peace deals over the years but that you 'haven't seen the Palestinians offer anything' says rather more about you than the Palestinians.

[Shryke]

Ace,

Here's the problem. Israel has tryed backing away evacuating settlers and offering real peace. The offer was rejected and more violence resulted. Now I do agree that the "kick'em harder" method offered by Netanyahu's government is making things far worse but there needs to be compromise on both side for peace to happen. I haven't see the Palestinians offer anything, including Hamas droping the "Death to Israel" clause.

That's cause you haven't been looking. Again, the West Bank is basically proof that if the Palestinians play nice, they will still get shit on.

And when has Israel "tried backing away evacuating settlers and offering real peace"? What specific instance are you referring to?

Bibi only made a booboo with his recent statement in that he let the cat out of the bag and had to try and stuff it back in there a day or two later.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

Israel evacuated the settlements it built in Gaza:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

It should offer the same for the West Bank. My point is that every time Israel offers something the Palestinians demand more. When will they offer something to get Israel to the table?

Both sides in this conflict seem to assume doing the same thing over and over will get different results. That doesn't seem to be the case.