Urban Fantasy / Paranormal Romance #2

[Mars447]

With the whole "female character is scared of the male initially", I think some context matters. If you take the Kate Daniels books, the beast lord could be replaced with a female character and the main character's responses would have been almost exactly the same. Kate wasn't afraid of the beast lord the person, she was afraid of anyone with that much power. You could replace Curran with a female version and Kate's responses would have been the same, and she probably would have become friends (rather than lovers) with the female beast lord.

Whereas Mercy is afraid of Adam, whereas she has been around other werewolves just as strong as she was raised who she isn't afraid of.

With Rachael, the entire intention is that she is a flawed character but she gets/makes herself better. She recognises it as a flaw and improves. She is initially an adrenaline junky and does a lot of stupid things. I'm not sure why she's brought into this discussion, as I don't think that character has many of the issues which have been mentioned here. She has female friends who are usually better than her in certain things, and although she does end up with Trent, she doesn't until it is very clear that he has changed. And that takes a long time.

Although it's awful convenient that one of the few people who are personally resistant to her special brand of magic just happens to a total beefcake of a dude who runs a band of homicidal monsters with the emotional maturity of teenagers.

 

I haven't read The Hollows yet, but I sampled a bit of Harrison's new book, The Drafter, and her heroine seems disappointingly weak and flakey for somebody who is nominally an elite government covert agent who is highly trained in combat.

* to be fair, I'm not sure if the pax arcana would allow abortion.

There's no reason why it shouldn't.  Hell, supernatural beings can still become modern doctors.  That said, I "NOPE"d so fast through that section of Daring that I actually got the causal pathway a little bit mixed up.  It's still kinda terrible and Rapey, but to a lesser extent.

[spoiler]The werewolves don't rape Templar bloodline women so that the infected fetus will eventually kill the mother by conflicting with her geas.  Instead, the werewolves forcibly impregnate captured Knight Templar women and then bite them in the last month of the pregnancy.  The women would die anyways, because the werewolf curse dosn't get along with the Templar geas (the same would be true for bitten male Knight Templars).  Furthermore, the doomed woman we meet is not the Knight that John captures, but someone who is basically mentioned offhandedly earlier in the book.[/spoiler]

 

That said, Fearless (Pax Arcana #3) is much better.

[ants]

Although it's awful convenient that one of the few people who are personally resistant to her special brand of magic just happens to a total beefcake of a dude who runs a band of homicidal monsters with the emotional maturity of teenagers.
 
I haven't read The Hollows yet, but I sampled a bit of Harrison's new book, The Drafter, and her heroine seems disappointingly weak and flakey for somebody who is nominally an elite government covert agent who is highly trained in combat.

Well, it is fantasy, sure we could have the eventual love interest be plain, but that is pretty unusual. And I would point out that Kate becomes friends with Aunt B who virtually everything you say (including being scared of) applies. So its not just the one gender.

By the way, with the whole emotional maturity of teenagers - can you actually give an example? The definitely feel certain emotions stronger, which is what the code is meant to be about controlling. I can't think of anything off-hand from the series where they act childishly, except the actual teenagers.

There's no reason why it shouldn't.  Hell, supernatural beings can still become modern doctors.  That said, I "NOPE"d so fast through that section of Daring that I actually got the causal pathway a little bit mixed up.  It's still kinda terrible and Rapey, but to a lesser extent.
[spoiler]The werewolves don't rape Templar bloodline women so that the infected fetus will eventually kill the mother by conflicting with her geas.  Instead, the werewolves forcibly impregnate captured Knight Templar women and then bite them in the last month of the pregnancy.  The women would die anyways, because the werewolf curse dosn't get along with the Templar geas (the same would be true for bitten male Knight Templars).  Furthermore, the doomed woman we meet is not the Knight that John captures, but someone who is basically mentioned offhandedly earlier in the book.[/spoiler]
That said, Fearless (Pax Arcana #3) is much better.

I don't think the pax allows those under its geas to attack/kill magical creatures unless they endanger the pax. So abortion in this case is probably out.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well, I did a couple of essays on grimdark so if you want my opinion:

The Appeal of Grimdark

What is Grimdark?

 

 

Right, so I finally got around to reading these, because train delays. Very geeky, in-jokey, which is fine. However, did you notice that you are addressing men, writing about male experiences and giving example only of male authors? It seems to me, perhaps by mistake, your description of the Sci-Fi scene, of Fantasy (and its influential authors), computer games and especially grim dark (which to me is more of a helpful moniker like "grunge" or "indie pop") is clinically free of women and of female experience.

 

 

To be fair, men also have stories of bad girls as well as good ones.

:)

 

 

"Bad girls" in men's stories are unfortunately often about women being "sluts", unfaithful or leaving the man in question, not necessarily as women breaking the patriarchy or somehow living in a world where the tables are turned and men are subjugated. While I am sure these stories exist, they are certainly not very common, on average.

 

 

With the whole "female character is scared of the male initially", I think some context matters. If you take the Kate Daniels books, the beast lord could be replaced with a female character and the main character's responses would have been almost exactly the same. Kate wasn't afraid of the beast lord the person, she was afraid of anyone with that much power. You could replace Curran with a female version and Kate's responses would have been the same, and she probably would have become friends (rather than lovers) with the female beast lord.

 

While this is undoubtedly true, it is also an authorial choice to make Curran the baddest badass in badass-dom. A kick-ass dude in a story can easily be paired off with a "gentle but strong" woman without any superpowers and nobody would bat an eyelid, but a kick-ass women needs to be matched by a dude who is at least as kick-ass as she is, or he is emasculated.

[Darth Richard II]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa. females write books? ABSURD!

 

(I'm joking)

[Mars447]

By the way, with the whole emotional maturity of teenagers - can you actually give an example? The definitely feel certain emotions stronger, which is what the code is meant to be about controlling. I can't think of anything off-hand from the series where they act childishly, except the actual teenagers.

I don't think the pax allows those under its geas to attack/kill magical creatures unless they endanger the pax. So abortion in this case is probably out.

There's the whole "murderously overprotective" thing with weres new into a relationship.  That's just comically over the top poor impulse control.  There are also multiple instances where fights have broken out and weres have been maimed or outright killed over petty bullshit (like Raphael killing his cousin after she questioned his manhood).  

 

Also, I'm not going to go back to the Pax stuff for fear of sparking an abortion debate.  It's moot, anyways.
 

"Bad girls" in men's stories are unfortunately often about women being "sluts", unfaithful or leaving the man in question, not necessarily as women breaking the patriarchy or somehow living in a world where the tables are turned and men are subjugated. While I am sure these stories exist, they are certainly not very common, on average.
 

While this is undoubtedly true, it is also an authorial choice to make Curran the baddest badass in badass-dom. A kick-ass dude in a story can easily be paired off with a "gentle but strong" woman without any superpowers and nobody would bat an eyelid, but a kick-ass women needs to be matched by a dude who is at least as kick-ass as she is, or he is emasculated.

Also, your "bad girl" is pretty liable to be dominated and/or killed off (because America is puritan and thinks liking sex with more than one person or using your sex appeal to advance your own interests should be punishable by death), while your "bad boy" is basically the romantic hero of the story.
 
The Femme Fatale often dies at the end, after all.

 

Speaking of kick-ass women with comparatively weaker men, is there an example besides Fortitude and Suzume in the Generation V series?  And they only qualify because Fort will likely remain mostly human only for the remainder of Suze's natural lifespan (sad thought  :().

[Callan S.]

Indeed he is. I find him to be a frequently obnoxious, pot-stirring troll. I initially said something to this effect in my post above, but I decided to edit it because I didn't think the fact that I often find him super annoying and focused on shit disturbance changed the fact that I think he's got some good analysis here. Arsehole, but a frequently smart and sometimes insightful arsehole.

 

 

Seems he's learned that if you make people laugh, then people either have to A: Lower their opinion of themselves down toward his level or B: Increase their opinion of him upward. And people far prefer flattery.

 

Benjanun used a version of that herself.

[Callan S.]

 

 

While this is undoubtedly true, it is also an authorial choice to make Curran the baddest badass in badass-dom. A kick-ass dude in a story can easily be paired off with a "gentle but strong" woman without any superpowers and nobody would bat an eyelid, but a kick-ass women needs to be matched by a dude who is at least as kick-ass as she is, or he is emasculated.

Maybe the focus on badassedness and no other attribute.

[David Selig]

There's the whole "murderously overprotective" thing with weres new into a relationship.  That's just comically over the top poor impulse control.  There are also multiple instances where fights have broken out and weres have been maimed or outright killed over petty bullshit (like Raphael killing his cousin after she questioned his manhood).  

I love these books, but the shapeshifter customs are probably the weakest element. They are killing each other over petty BS time and time again and is presented as no big deal. Curran, Jim, Aunt B, etc have killed probably dozens of other shapeshifters to get/stay on top yet they are presented very positively and the impact of this is brushed aside.

 

 

Speaking of kick-ass women with comparatively weaker men, is there an example besides Fortitude and Suzume in the Generation V series?

Kity Norville and Ben, if we are generous.

[C.T. Phipps]

 

 

Right, so I finally got around to reading these, because train delays. Very geeky, in-jokey, which is fine. However, did you notice that you are addressing men, writing about male experiences and giving example only of male authors? It seems to me, perhaps by mistake, your description of the Sci-Fi scene, of Fantasy (and its influential authors), computer games and especially grim dark (which to me is more of a helpful moniker like "grunge" or "indie pop") is clinically free of women and of female experience.

 

I can only write from my experience and would be very interested in your recommendations of grimdark female authors. The closest thing I have read by a female author would be Jacqueline Cary's novels and that honestly is about as far from "gritty" as you can get with its Neo-Renassiance sex-positive spoiled pseudo-French as you can possibly get. I've been told Robin Hobb is the best woman to go to for that but her absence is due to a shocking factoid--I haven't read any of her books.

 

Otherwise, she would have been included but recommending something without having read it strikes me as grossly inappropriate.

My own opinion on female-written fantasy and otherwise as compared to grimdark is the first fantasy novels I ever read were written by Margaret Weis in the Dragonlance books so I've never really seen the "distinction" between male and female authors in the genre the way other readers do. As far as I'm concerned, fantasy should be considered a gender-neutral playground. If I were to cite influential authors for how I write banter, Elaine Cunningham would also be very up there. I also recommend Christie Golden but she is very-very high fantasy.

[polishgenius]

 the way other readers do.

 

:huh:


 

[C.T. Phipps]

:huh:

 

Yeah, I was really stunned at this being a thing.

 

Take a look at this article.

She's pretty much where I am at, thought wise.

 

http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2015/06/guest-post-tansy-rayner-roberts-fantasy-female-writers-politics-influence/

[Darth Richard II]

They study Sara Douglas at univeristy? o.O

 

And Kurtz fucking rocks.

[David Selig]

I can only write from my experience and would be very interested in your recommendations of grimdark female authors. The closest thing I have read by a female author would be Jacqueline Cary's novels and that honestly is about as far from "gritty" as you can get with its Neo-Renassiance sex-positive spoiled pseudo-French as you can possibly get.

Mary Gentle. She was excellent better grimdark novels than the usual suspect long before it became cool.

[Richard Writhen]

Her stuff sounds interesting. Especially the European magick angle ...

[C.T. Phipps]

Mary Gentle. She was excellent better grimdark novels than the usual suspect long before it became cool.

 

Awesome. *puts her on the list*

[AverageGuy]

 

I can only write from my experience and would be very interested in your recommendations of grimdark female authors. 

 

Maybe Caitlin Kiernan. A lot of her stuff is actually horror, but I think there's some grimdark fantasy in there. Some of CJ Cherryh's books would fit. A few months ago I might've said KJ Parker, but...

 

Anyway, urban fantasy. Feel like I haven't read much lately. Any new urban fantasy authors caught anyone's attention lately? Just read the latest Kate Daniels. It was okay, but it kind of felt like treading water. In one sense it's setting up a new model for Kate and co.'s life from now on, but ghouls and random bad guy made it kind of throwaway. About to start Anne Bishop's latest Others book, and it seems like Aaronovitch has a new book out soon.

[Darth Richard II]

Heh, I was about to say KJ Parker too.

 

Katherine Kurtz, Katherine Kerr, Marry Gentle, Robin Hobb, hmmm *looks at shelf*

 

 

 

I want to say Kate Elliott isn't quite grimdark but Crown of Stars aproaches the line sometimes. And by all reports the new Jemsin is grimdark as fuck.

[lady narcissa]

I read M.L. Brennan's "Generation V" based on the many comments its gotten here. And yeah...I don't know. There are things I like about it such as the kitsune and Suz who is awesome. I also like that the vampires are vampire-like and not reluctant to kill humans. The vampire family dynamics are also fun but the whole bit with how vampires have babies is just weird. Yet there are so many things I did not like about the book including the main character who I cannot stand. Also I was bothered by mistakes such as the Breakers being described as the cottage the Rockefellers used to rough it in when its really easy to fact check that and know its the Vanderbilts. Things like that make me wonder about and doubt all the other local facts and details that are thrown around in the book to situate it in its location. And that was something else that bothered me as other than Newport which the author attempts to give a sense of place to (and makes mistakes attempting to do so), the "urban" part...was just so generic. It could have been anywhere-smallish-urban America. So that was disappointing. I might try the second book just to see if it gets better but I'd been more keen to if it was focused on Suz and her family and Fort was just an occasional secondary character.

Or I've also got the new October Daye to read so I might read that instead.

[Puntificator]

 

I can only write from my experience and would be very interested in your recommendations of grimdark female authors. 

Here is but a small list of some current female grimdark authors who are also very good writers: Kameron Hurley, N.K. Jemisin (specifically, "The Fifth Season"), Aliette de Bodard, Jo Spurrier, Mazarkis Williams, Evie Manieri, Amanda Downum, Teresa Frohock, and E.E. Richardson. Though not someone I would normally call a grimdark author, Karen Miller has written the grimdark "The Falcon Throne," which is the first book of "The Tarnished Crown" series. And a lot, but not all, of Elizabeth Bear's fantasy stories (especially the short ones) are grimdark, as are the books in Gail Z. Martin's "The Ascendant Kingdoms." I would argue to include Jo Walton's "The Just City" and "The Philosopher Kings" as well, but I would expect a heated argument from the literati, so I'll just leave these as a possibility. 

[Darth Richard II]

Pretty sure Mazarkis Williams is a man.