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Robb Stark's Peace Terms


thespider4a

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I'm currently on A Clash of Kings in my first re-read of A Song of Ice and Fire and noticed that when his peace terms are sent to King's Landing they are immediately seen as too much and they wont be accepted. Robb asks for the safe return of his sisters, his fathers body and ice and all other hostages and captives as well as people who died in King's Landing with his father. These too me are reasonable demands. However, it is the demand of independence for the entire North which made them reject the peace terms as the North is a huge, vast reason which is roughly the same size as the other six kingdoms combined.

 

However, would it not have been possible for Robb to omit the North's independence term in order for them to win the war. I think that its more than likely a peace could have been sued with the other terms provided they released Jaime. Once the fighting has stopped and Robb had his sisters couldn't he have just returned North and married his Frey wife on the way.

 

Once he has returned North, surely nothing could stop Robb from declaring the North independent? The North is a huge territory which is not easily invaded by southerners. Especially since a long, harsh winter is coming I doubt the south would be able to successfully invade the North.

 

The North would be protected by Moat Cailin and the crannogmen.

 

Do you agree that this could have been possible and all of the Stark's remaining could have survived?

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Suppose the Lannisters agreed. Their terms would like have been fine... march back up to Winterfell and then we will ship all the hostages back to you. They likely knew he was Stark and would keep his word. But theyre Lannisters. No one trusts them The best they could have hoped for one of the girls.

 

They would then still have to march North and deal with Walder Frey. That would have been a great time to host a wedding and heal the rift.

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I'm currently on A Clash of Kings in my first re-read of A Song of Ice and Fire and noticed that when his peace terms are sent to King's Landing they are immediately seen as too much and they wont be accepted. Robb asks for the safe return of his sisters, his fathers body and ice and all other hostages and captives as well as people who died in King's Landing with his father. These too me are reasonable demands. However, it is the demand of independence for the entire North which made them reject the peace terms as the North is a huge, vast reason which is roughly the same size as the other six kingdoms combined.

 

However, would it not have been possible for Robb to omit the North's independence term in order for them to win the war. I think that its more than likely a peace could have been sued with the other terms provided they released Jaime. Once the fighting has stopped and Robb had his sisters couldn't he have just returned North and married his Frey wife on the way.

 

Once he has returned North, surely nothing could stop Robb from declaring the North independent? The North is a huge territory which is not easily invaded by southerners. Especially since a long, harsh winter is coming I doubt the south would be able to successfully invade the North.

 

The North would be protected by Moat Cailin and the crannogmen.

 

Do you agree that this could have been possible and all of the Stark's remaining could have survived?

the problem is he declared the riverlands part of the north. He cant retreat because it would leave them completely vulnerable to attack unlike the north. Its why he had to do it through force if he was going to succeed

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Well for one thing, the Starks and the Stark bannermen wanted the Lannisters dead because everyone loved Ned and they murdered him for "treason" which everyone knew was a lie.

The Starks weren't just going to be like "yeah give us back 2 girls and we'll give you back one of the most revered warriors in Westeros and then we'll all go back home and play nice forever."

Even if Robb was willing to give up his crown and go back to Warden of the north, there would still be enmity between Stark and Lannister and his bannermen wouldn't respect him as much. And even if the Lannisters accepted his terms their word wouldn't exactly be trusted. Plus Robb and his army wanted to expose the truth about Joff to the realm as this was what Ned died for.
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If peace had been achievable, the Lannisters would have expected Robb to do fealty to Joffrey. That's one sticking point.

The second is Arya. Robb would never have accepted that Arya had disappeared, and would assume the Lannisters were playing false.
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Well for one thing, the Starks and the Stark bannermen wanted the Lannisters dead because everyone loved Ned and they murdered him for "treason" which everyone knew was a lie.

The Starks weren't just going to be like "yeah give us back 2 girls and we'll give you back one of the most revered warriors in Westeros and then we'll all go back home and play nice forever."

Even if Robb was willing to give up his crown and go back to Warden of the north, there would still be enmity between Stark and Lannister and his bannermen wouldn't respect him as much. And even if the Lannisters accepted his terms their word wouldn't exactly be trusted. Plus Robb and his army wanted to expose the truth about Joff to the realm as this was what Ned died for.

 

You might want to reread AGOT again.  Robb and his army had no idea about Joffrey, they were not fighting to expose the truth as they were not aware of it at the time.

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Without the ridiculous demand for the North's independence it might have been acceptable. Unfortunately Robb was weak and inexperienced enough to let himself be controlled by his boisterous and flat out too dumb to live bannermen who growled "King in the North!" at him every five minutes.

 

Drop the independence clause, march back North towards Moat Cailin, marry Roslin Frey along the way, wait for Sansa and the other hostages at MC and head for the safety of the North. Get the harvests in before winter comes and spend the net few (winter) years planning a strategy.

 

Sadly the average Northern noble puts "honour" above sensibility. Plus a good cunk of them was unreliable anyway; look at how quickly Lord Karstark turned on his "RAAAAAW KING IN THE NORTH RAWWWWW"

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Yes, but there are 3 problems with it. First, Robb is too honorable to do that (maybe). Second, it was a demand that his bannermen wanted. Third, it would have ruined the plot. But yeah that would be a reasonable plan that could have worked, and the terms probably would have been accepted.

All this. 

 

Plus, Tywin and Tyrion are not stupid. They would demand hostages to guarantee Robb's loyalty. 

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Frankly I've always found it very contrived that the Lannisters didn't agree to these terms or the very least considered them very seriously. They were on the ropes. Without the shadow baby miracle they had no realistic shot against both Renly and Robb, cut off from their power base in the Westerlands.

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I don't think they were supposed to accept the terms. This was sent to remind the Lannisters what they were fighting for and what would happen when they lost the war.

And no, Making peace and declaring independence when he returned to the north was not something Robb would do.

You might want to reread AGOT again.  Robb and his army had no idea about Joffrey, they were not fighting to expose the truth as they were not aware of it at the time.


This, this, a thousand times this!
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Frankly I've always found it very contrived that the Lannisters didn't agree to these terms or the very least considered them very seriously. They were on the ropes. Without the shadow baby miracle they had no realistic shot against both Renly and Robb, cut off from their power base in the Westerlands.

 

Cersei tore the treaty in half.

 

As the series clearly demonstrates, she's the idiot of the family.

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