Towers of Midnight Spoilers Thread #2

[elmis]

Egwene believes she is right and anyone who doesn't think so, is wrong. There is nothing wrong with that. That she's trying to stop Rand is actually something that seems like a good plotline and the one new plotline in this book that I actually enjoyed (the 13x13 thing wasn't exactly new - people have been discussing this going on for a long time).

She was wrong to tie Perrin up, she could have weaved a gateway and sent him somewhere (relatively) safe. She could have done a lot of things. Tying someone up in T'A'R seems like a surefire way for them to start a nightmare. Imagine that, being caught in your own nightmare, while tied up by the one power. Doesn't really help if she's made you invisible from the Black Ajah then.

Anyways, Lightning Lord is right with regards to Egwene being all "my way of the highway". If that is a bad trait or not remains to be seen, in my opinion, it is a trait that is needed in a leader with the amount of power that Egwene wields - specially in the situation they are in. That said, we've been going on 3-4 books straight were basically everything has gone in her favour, that gets a bit Mary Sueish.

[Returned]

It doesn't really matter, Rand has totally outmanoeuvred her. By laying out his plans infront of the hall he laid out the best possible bait. Knowing Egwene is a controlling manipulator he expected her to gather opposition, saving Rand precious time and effort getting them all together.

Egwene isn't a good Amyrlin, she's succeeding because of Verin and the extreme incompetence of the tower at its current form. I'd put Siuan over Egwene anyday in terms of who's the better Amyrlin. Egwene just picked up the pieces.

Edit: The only good thing she's doing is finally realizing that the tower can't have a monopoly over the one power. She's starting to accept the fact that not every channeler will be a lackey of the tower.

[Solmyr]

Seems like ToM Spoiler Thread #2 has turned into an "Egwene is a bitch"/"NAW! she isn't".

Personally I started perceiving her as the former lately and I believe it is for the same reason most people do.

4 of the main characters in the WoT are the village boys and girl from the Two Rivers, who, 13 books ago, set off on an adventure which would change their lives and shake the world. So far so good.

Now, nearly 3 years and 1 million trollocs later, we see how these children have grown and found their places in the world. They are in a position of power and authority, they have discovered special talents which make them unique even among their own kind (Dreamer, Dragon, Wolfbrother, Lucky-guy). Each of them, however, remembers who they were and where they came from, remembers what it's like not being a leader and having the simple life of a farmer. Each save for Egwene.

In all the 13 books I don't recall a single time where she reminisced about the times of old, the life in the Two Rivers, the fond memories of spending time with the people close to you and having no worries about the future bigger than if the crops will be ok. Rand, Mat and Perrin all do that.

Mat does not really wish for his old life back, but he doesn't want to be a lord either. He never wanted to be in command, never wanted to have men follow him. He simply had no choice. Still, he does his best to remain true to his nature, he dresses poorly, writes sloppily, gambles and drinks, looks after women in taverns and curses more than any other character in the book (save Uno!).

Perrin hates being a lord, hates the responsibility it brings to him, he even wants to face punishment for his crimes of the past, but his position as a leader denies him even that redemption. I can't believe I am defending him, but emo as he is, he is still more noble in his goals and desires than Egwene. He often reminisces about the life in the Two Rivers, he dreams of being a blacksmith and living peacefully on a farm.

Rand is the DR, the bees knees, the mainest protagonist of them all. And yet he never sought glory, power or lordship for the sake of these things alone. Most of the time all he dreams of is reaching the last battle and dying. He lives in agony most of the time, wounds that never heal, madness tearing his mind and soul, a voice of a madman in his head for 12 books, enemies behind every corner wanting to kill him, capture him, torture him or make him torture the people he loves. He also reminisces about his old live, we see him dreaming of swimming in the Waterwood. One of the main things which pushed him to become ZenRand was a shadow from his past life - his father. We see in ToM that he weeps in front of all the nobles, Aes Sedai and Asha'Man, because he had neaarly hurt his own father.

And where is Egwene in all of that? She and the other wonder girls received special treatment from day1. Moiraine started teaching her hours after they left the Two Rivers. She found out she is a Dreamer soon after becoming a Novice, she was raised Accepted in a very short time, she was constantly receiving special tasks from Siuan, tasks which most sisters wouldn't undertake without an army at their backs. Then she went to the Aiel, learned some more, then went to the rebels and after being raised an Amyrlin started manipulating and bullying them into doing whatever she thinks is best. She got herself captured, violating the law which states that the Amyrlin should not expose herself to danger because she is too valuable. Then she got rescued and instead of thanking those who saved her life by risking theirs, infiltrating the tower in the middle of the Seanchan invasion, she scolded at the man she presumably loves.

She never, for a second, thinks back who she was a few years ago, a spoilt little girl from a backward village in the middle of nowhere, whose dreams went as far as marrying the boy on the next farm (Rand) and dying less than a mile from where she was born. Now that I think about it, maybe the fact she was the mayor's daughter predisposed her to being power-hungry and wanting to rule absolutely over others. Yet, what she fails to realize is that in her short ~20 years she hasn't gained even a shred of the wisdom, that the people, she tries to rule over, possess. She presumes to try manipulating/bullying the Hall, the monarchs of the world, even her former best friends Rand and Perrin (and Mat in AMoL, mark my words). This is not a proper attitude of anyone her age.

Even Elayne, who usually receives much more hate, does think back on wise things she has learned from her mother, Lini and Gareth Brinn. Annoying as she is, she is still more aware of her proper place in the world.

With that I rest my Egwene-hate-case.

Per Solmyr in the last thread: I think stick a fork into the idea of any coherent explanation of balefire. BS' interviews about it all a mess (on Force of Light in tGS, he went on about the castle being destroyed back in time...) Granted RJ's weren't so hot either, but at least it was a little consistent.

Actually I think Balefire is explained well enough. BS hasn't really used much balefire in TGS and ToM, or at least there haven't been many consequences of the balefire to be explained. I think the balefire in earlier books was more important, because it affected many things like bringing people back from the dead. All Rand did by BFing the castle was remove a compulsion weave.

The only inconsistent thing I find is why when balefire hits an object with a definite shape does that object get burned out fully? If the soul/no-soul theory holds for balefire (and that is one of the few rational theories), then objects should be torn by balefire the same way it pokes holes in walls. Unless the channeler shaped the beam specifically to include the entire object.

[Returned]

Rand BFs Rahvin, IF Jimmy would have BFd Rand right after would Rahvin come back to life?

[Solmyr]

Rand BFs Rahvin, IF Jimmy would have BFd Rand right after would Rahvin come back to life?

Yes and then Rahvin would've balefired Jimmy, this causing the Wheel to implode and the Pattern to hang itself on its own threads :D.

[AverageGuy]

She never, for a second, thinks back who she was a few years ago

I disagree. While I felt the "conservative innkeeper's daughter" who would never just sleep with a man she wasn't married to (except in his dreams) or marry him without the consent of her parents seemed a little unlike the Egwene we've seen recently, it still remains as a recent counterexample. There is at least one time she's visited Emond's Field in T'A'R, and I would consider her thinking about the old Rand to be thinking back to her own past.

[David Selig]

In all the 13 books I don't recall a single time where she reminisced about the times of old, the life in the Two Rivers, the fond memories of spending time with the people close to you and having no worries about the future bigger than if the crops will be ok. Rand, Mat and Perrin all do that.

There are a few instances of her reflecting back on life in Two Rivers and she also sent a few letters back to her parents, but usually her conclusion is that she much prefers her current situation as an Accepted/Amyrlin.

This has never bothered me. There's nothing wrong per se in being ambitious and not being satisfied with living a quiet life in the deep country. And unlike the male trio, she doesn't have Darkfriends, Forsaken and Shadowspawn trying to kill her most of the time, so it makes sense that she prefers the power, riches and prestige of her new position to living a wife of a farmer's wife. Not every character has to be a reluctant hero who longs for simpler life.

Yet, what she fails to realize is that in her short ~20 years she hasn't gained even a shred of the wisdom, that the people, she tries to rule over, possess.

Again I will try to play devil's advocate here - the Aes Sedai as a group has been such a bunch of idiots that it's not surprising she's convinced she knows better than them. Not that Egwene is that smart and wise, but at least she's not a complete tool most of the time unlike her fellow sisters.

The negative side here is that this has only fuelled her arrogance and know-it-all attitude, both of which were strong to begin with, but have went off the charts in the last several books. When Nynaeve expressed doubts over her plan to oppose Rand's intention to break the seals, she immediately thought it must'be because Nynaeve was caught in Rand's ta'veren effect and didn't consider for a second that Nynaeve has spent way more time with Rand of late and knows his current state of mind way better than Egwene.

Her extreme arrogance in dealing with Rand is unforgivable. She always assumes he's wrong and she's right, even when she has no clue about the matter at hand. The Seals are just the latest of many examples. And it's not just Rand, it's pretty much every man she meets. Her sexism is really irritating.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Solmyr,

Wnat are Egwene and Elayne's "proper place in the world?"

[Rhom]

At the risk of stepping outside the "Egwene is a bitch. Discuss." theme of this new thread...

I have been thinking more about the two chapters that wrapped up the Tower of Ghenjei in this book. People have complained that portion of the story was over too quick; yet if I had to put money on it, I would bet that RJ himself wrote those chapters. Additionally, the Mat in those chapters doesn't seem to speak with a drastically different voice than Mat elsewhere in ToM.

I think it speaks well of Sanderson that he was able to further tweak his writing skills in this second go around with the characters.

[Solmyr]

Solmyr,

Wnat are Egwene and Elayne's "proper place in the world?"

Elayne: Queen of Andor, listening closely to advice from senior members of the counrt she can trust (Dyelin, master Nori, her midwife, Birgitte and more recently - her mom and Lini). Also - Accepted or at best a newly raised sister, who despite her remarkable strength, respects and heeds the advice of other Aes Sedai, especially the Sitters and the Amyrlin.

She shouldn't overextend to Cairien, nor should she play the immortal-know-it-all hero who single-handedly defeats the Black Ajah. And she needs to listen more, despite being a queen. Morgase herself didn't rule absolutely for a long while after becoming one and we all know Morgase is three times the queen Elayne will ever be.

Egwene: Accepted or at best a newly raised sister, blah blah same as Elayne on this part. OR, had she chosen to, an apprentice Wise One, soon to visit Rhuidian for the second time.

Thats who anyone else with the same skillsets would've been had they not been a main character. When you think about it all Egwene started up with is some strength in the One Power and a rare talent, which isn't much use most of the time, not to mention most people never believe her.

Take Alivia for example - she can make even Nyneave eat her own braid with the One Power, but she isn't given any special treatment. She is ~200 years old and "knows every possible way to destroy something with the One Power" but she is nothing but a follower.

I see that it would be ridiculous to expect the main characters to be servants and barmaids for the entire series, just because they aren't the best in everything, but Egwene has been placed on too high a pedestal, considering her age and skills.

[David Selig]

Sanderson said that the whole Tower of Ghenjey sequence was written by Jordan.

[Guest Raidne]

Raidne, the chapter was called 'the Amyrlin's anger'...pretty unequivocal, there.

Oh for real? The one where Rand informs her of his plans? Lame.

I think the Dragon knew the Amyrlin's levelly-stated considered disagreement in that scene.

Raidne,

Out of curiosity, would you call yourself a Platonist?

That is rather far afield, but the short answer is no, for the most part. (How about you, Scott? Do you think we use astrology to breed people to produce good philosopher-soldiers who can serve as the oligarchical masters of our political entity? ;))

[elmis]

I think the Dragon knew the Amyrlin's levelly-stated considered disagreement in that scene.

LOL! Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Raidne,

I rather like Platonism in the "philosphy of Math" sense. The astrology and other stuff not so much.

[Returned]

At the risk of stepping outside the "Egwene is a bitch. Discuss." theme of this new thread...

I have been thinking more about the two chapters that wrapped up the Tower of Ghenjei in this book. People have complained that portion of the story was over too quick; yet if I had to put money on it, I would bet that RJ himself wrote those chapters. Additionally, the Mat in those chapters doesn't seem to speak with a drastically different voice than Mat elsewhere in ToM.

I think it speaks well of Sanderson that he was able to further tweak his writing skills in this second go around with the characters.

To be honest, their writing styles don't seem to differ all that much. When I heard BS would finish WoT I had more of a "Ah, of course!" reaction than anything else.

Both writers are somewhat weak with humor and romantic relationship, but very strong at world building and magic systems.

[Kouran]

Raidne I often concidered the Amyrlin's anger to be the result of the conversation rather than the conversation itself. Concider that Egwene is gathering those to her that she thinks will agree with her when she argues with Rand at the field of Merilor.

I think the results of the meeting at the field of Merilor will most likely be pretty clear as to the Amyrlin's anger. Though I guess we will have to wait a year to know for sure.

[Rooster]

Some rambling comments about the book: Nynaeve and Rand were completely badass in this. Nynaeve has quickly climbed to one of my favourite characters in this series. I liked Psycho Rand but am even happier with Zen Rand. I wonder if he plays the "Rand Sedai" card against Egwene? Probably not, but I can see him sidestepping the breaking the seals issue in the upcoming meeting and extorting the world's monarchs by playing "oops my finger slipped" with the seals.

Speaking of Rand, does anyone think Zen Rand has underwent a significant powerup? He absolutely annihilated those Trollocs seemingly without artificial aid, and only affecting Shadowspawn to boot. Is it just that after his "merge" he is far more efficient using his waves, or does the Champion of Light get some extra benefits? I seem to remember Ishamael in the Dragon Reborn almost competing with Rand & Callandor (admittedly Rand was comparatively weak back then, but with Callandor he should have easily been beyond Ishamael surely?). Extra benefits for Champions would of course bring up why it didn't hold for LTT and EMT back in the previous Age, but perhaps EMT wasn't yet chosen and LTT was too self-doubting? I don't usually speculate with this many unknowns, but his "Storm of Light" was far beyond anything an unaided channeler has wrought before in this series.

I'm not unduly concerned about Aviendha's vision. It definitely had an impact, but there have been a handful of Fourth Age quotations within the series that don't seem to have happened right after the Last Battle nor do they seem likely to have been uttered under Seanchan rule, given that the Seanchan in Avi's vision consider the Dragon inferior to their Empress (the Court of the Sun historian's work could have been a propaganda reminder on how great the Dragon lineage is, but the others seem farther down the timeline). I do like how the visions finally shed light on what Avi's and Rand's children's "oddity" is. Their conception must have been pretty Powerful, wink wink, nudge nudge... Yeah, I'll get my coat.

Also, is it true that Aviendha's (and the Black Tower's) timeline is still behind ToM's ending? Because the structuring of ToM worked against it and I really hoped we'd be done with significant differences by the last book.

I'm kind of sad the book didn't show Rand's reunion with Hurin (that's the kind of fanservice I can get behind), nor was Dobraine at all present. He's still one of Rand's loyalists. Also, aMoL better show Tam's expression when Rand introduces his two other "very special" persons to him.

[Gertrude]

Kouran, this would make more sense, and I hope you're right.

Eh, I've liked Egwene since the beginning, so I think it's just a habit now. Even the Perrin thing, in my mind I rationalized it as her wanting to get him out of harm's way. But that's just me glossing over what is actually written and replacing it with what I think their motivations should be. I've been doing that for a while now. I'm not entirely re-writing it, of course, but Perrin in ropes I can see the points both ways, so I always give the character the benefit of the doubt.

[AverageGuy]

Sanderson said that the whole Tower of Ghenjey sequence was written by Jordan.

Any word on who wrote the "Boots" chapter?

[Arataniello]

I'm not unduly concerned about Aviendha's vision. It definitely had an impact, but there have been a handful of Fourth Age quotations within the series that don't seem to have happened right after the Last Battle nor do they seem likely to have been uttered under Seanchan rule, given that the Seanchan in Avi's vision consider the Dragon inferior to their Empress (the Court of the Sun historian's work could have been a propaganda reminder on how great the Dragon lineage is, but the others seem farther down the timeline). I do like how the visions finally shed light on what Avi's and Rand's children's "oddity" is. Their conception must have been pretty Powerful, wink wink, nudge nudge... Yeah, I'll get my coat.

It would help if we knew when Aviendha's Rhuidean chapters fell in relation to Rand going to Dragonmount and reintegrating himself. I can see Avi's visions being the future if DarkRand was the one who won the Last Battle. Once Rand had gone Zen-like, maybe the future shown by the pillars would be totally different.

It is significant that the Empire in the future is consistently referred to as the Raven Empire, not the Seanchan Empire.

The future that Avi sees clearly happens after some sort of defeat of the Dark - one of the clan leaders ('aged' Bruan) is said to have been at the Last Battle and survived. But it is never mentioned HOW the Last Battle was won by Rand and allies, which also may have helped us figure out how her vision-future came about.