Towers of Midnight Spoilers Thread #2

[Stego]

Perrin obviously has far superior abilities in Tela-something-or-other. I can do a cartwheel, but there are plenty of folks who can do it a lot better. Perrin does his dreaming cartwheels a helluva lot better than Egwene can.

Her one and only ability is to get there without an angreal of some sort. Perrin can do that, too.

[alguien]

I don't think Egwene would have done well against Slayer...

[Slurktan]

Well there are two ways of looking at this:

1) From the books:

Yes, Rand needs two powerful women he can trust. But neither Elayne nor Avi are at their full potential strength. Elayne is also pregnant and unable to channel all the time. Further, Egwene is clearly more skilled with the OP, her weaves bringing a look of awe on Elayne's face. As a second woman to link with, Egwene actually makes more sense than Elayne or Aviendha.

Nyneave and Alivia are two women he trusts(And Moiraine shortly). He has absolutely no need for Egwene or Elayne, particularly as they are weaker.

Plus, Egwene is the strongest Dreamwalker around. Tel'aran'rhiod does have a role to play in the finale, emphasized by Verin's words that it is the third constant of the universe aside from the DO and the Creator, which were repeated by Egwene for the reader's benefit in this book. Plus, Rand is having troubled dreams, almost certainly a ploy of Lanfears. And Egwene has the most parallels with Lanfear, plus is a stronger Dreamer than her...

No she isn't, the Wise Ones are significantly better than her, enough so that they still treat her as a child. And TAR is covered by Perrin who can do anything in TAR that Egwene can do. Channeling is irrelevant in TAR because if he wanted to Perrin could channel in TAR with a thought.

But talk to me again when Perrin banishes a nightmare with a thought,

Perrin do this in ToM while training.

Off hand, when does Egwene create a nightmare to trap someone in? When does Egwene show she can change her surroundings completely with a thought?

[Returned]

Perrin is a wolfbrother, TAR is the domain of wolves. They've been there before even the existence of the one power.

No matter how well Egwene learns, she will still have that "out of place" edge to her, like we saw against Mesaana.

[fionwe1987]

I don't think you've read this book. Perrin has been learning exactly this to face Slayer. Egwene learned it from the wise ones and Perrin from the wolves, the wolves have been at it much, much longer.

But Perrin doesn't dismiss them with a thought. He gets sucked into them, and it takes him some time to get rid of it. We're told the Wise Ones dismiss nightmares as a matter of course, and Egwene learned form them, and has been accepted as an equal by them.

Towers of Midnight book tour 7 November 2010 Harvard Coop, Cambridge, MA - Zaela Sedai reporting

Q: Who is stronger in Tel'aran'rhiod (Perrin or Egwene)?

A: (not verbatim) They are both very strong, but in different ways. Perrin is very strong instinctively. Like the wolves, he makes decisions based on instinct while in Tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene plans out her moves rather than going by feeling as Perrin does. If the two were matched against each other the outcome would entirely be based on what type of encounter it was.

BS just doesn't want to destroy Egwene but we all know plans never go the way we want them to go. Team perrin go!

Isn't that almost exactly what I said? Perrin may certainly one day equal Egwene. I certainly wouldn't bet on one of them vs. the other in a battle of wills like Egwene vs. Mesaana. But the wolves just cannot do the stuff the Wise Ones can. They cannot imagine themselves to be human beings, but the Wise Ones can imagine themselves as animals. There is a difference is what they can do, and Egwene and the Wise One's can also bring dreaming humans into TAR, something Perrin doesn't have the first clue about.

Nyneave and Alivia are two women he trusts(And Moiraine shortly). He has absolutely no need for Egwene or Elayne, particularly as they are weaker.

But they are both more skilled than Alivia, Egwene more so. Strength doesn't matter at all. Egwene can just get Vora's sa'angreal and overmatch Nynaeve by a great extent. What matters is skill.

No she isn't, the Wise Ones are significantly better than her, enough so that they still treat her as a child.

First off, Amys tells her books ago that she will be far stronger than Amys, and Amys herself is the strongest Aiel Dreamwalker. Plus, even as a novice, Egwene got out of Moghedien's dream-trap. And Moggy is the strongest of the Foresaken Dreamwalkers.

As of ToM, we also have Bair telling Egwene that they can no longer think of her as their trainee in the Dream. As a Dreamwalker, Egwene has come into her own.

And TAR is covered by Perrin who can do anything in TAR that Egwene can do.

Nope. He cannot spy on people's dream or bring them into TAR and trap them there.

Channeling is irrelevant in TAR because if he wanted to Perrin could channel in TAR with a thought.

Huh? You can't change your body in TAR to even heal yourself. I highly doubt Perrin could make himself a channeler in TAR. And should Egwene hit out at him with a club of Air (which is invisible), Perrin would just die, since he cannot sense channeling.

Perrin do this in ToM while training.

Only with effort, though.

Off hand, when does Egwene create a nightmare to trap someone in?

She does not, but she knows how to bring someone having a normal dream into a TAR scenario of her own making. She doesn't do so because the Wise One's consider it evil.

When does Egwene show she can change her surroundings completely with a thought?

See above. We haven't seen her do such stuff since the WO think that its typical use, which was against people unused to TAR, is evil.

[David Selig]

Only one person needs to have skill in a circle, the one who will be guiding the weaves. All you need from the others is brute strength in the Power. So Alivia makes perfect sense, since it will probably be Rand who will guide the weaves, or Nynaeve.

[generic]

Further, Egwene brings all the Aes Sedai, probably the Wise Ones and the Windfinders, to the table. As of now, at least, it looks like these groups are accepting her plan for them, and they seem opposed to the Seal plan as well.

What makes you think the Wise Ones are about to abandon him for the WT? Their agreement to a student exchange program? And I don't see how she could sway the Windfinders one way or the other.

[Renasko]

But Perrin doesn't dismiss them with a thought. He gets sucked into them, and it takes him some time to get rid of it. We're told the Wise Ones dismiss nightmares as a matter of course, and Egwene learned form them, and has been accepted as an equal by them.

Isn't that almost exactly what I said? Perrin may certainly one day equal Egwene. I certainly wouldn't bet on one of them vs. the other in a battle of wills like Egwene vs. Mesaana. But the wolves just cannot do the stuff the Wise Ones can. They cannot imagine themselves to be human beings, but the Wise Ones can imagine themselves as animals. There is a difference is what they can do, and Egwene and the Wise One's can also bring dreaming humans into TAR, something Perrin doesn't have the first clue about.

But they are both more skilled than Alivia, Egwene more so. Strength doesn't matter at all. Egwene can just get Vora's sa'angreal and overmatch Nynaeve by a great extent. What matters is skill.

First off, Amys tells her books ago that she will be far stronger than Amys, and Amys herself is the strongest Aiel Dreamwalker. Plus, even as a novice, Egwene got out of Moghedien's dream-trap. And Moggy is the strongest of the Foresaken Dreamwalkers.

As of ToM, we also have Bair telling Egwene that they can no longer think of her as their trainee in the Dream. As a Dreamwalker, Egwene has come into her own.

Nope. He cannot spy on people's dream or bring them into TAR and trap them there.

Huh? You can't change your body in TAR to even heal yourself. I highly doubt Perrin could make himself a channeler in TAR. And should Egwene hit out at him with a club of Air (which is invisible), Perrin would just die, since he cannot sense channeling.

Only with effort, though.

She does not, but she knows how to bring someone having a normal dream into a TAR scenario of her own making. She doesn't do so because the Wise One's consider it evil.

See above. We haven't seen her do such stuff since the WO think that its typical use, which was against people unused to TAR, is evil.

So much type-type, so much wrong. The last book summed up the Perrin/Egwene ability difference in the dream-world. Egwene even learns from Perrin and it helps her defeat Messana, a Forsaken known well for her ability in that domain.

[fionwe1987]

Only one person needs to have skill in a circle, the one who will be guiding the weaves. All you need from the others is brute strength in the Power. So Alivia makes perfect sense, since it will probably be Rand who will guide the weaves, or Nynaeve.

First, for the link to prevent overdrawing, one of the women has to lead the circle. Also, IIRC, in a two woman-one man link, only a woman can lead. But I may be wrong on that.

And, as we saw when Avi and Elayne linked to bond Rand and Min, sometimes complex weaves may require passing the control of the link along. Plus, different skills may be needed for different people.

By no means am I saying Egwene is indispensable in a link. But who knows what skills that link would need?

[fionwe1987]

What makes you think the Wise Ones are about to abandon him for the WT? Their agreement to a student exchange program? And I don't see how she could sway the Windfinders one way or the other.

No, it is the fact that when she mentions Rand's plan, they get worried and agree with her that it seems too dangerous.

So much type-type, so much wrong. The last book summed up the Perrin/Egwene ability difference in the dream-world. Egwene even learns from Perrin and it helps her defeat Messana, a Forsaken known well for her ability in that domain.

So many statements so much ignorance. Even Brandon endorses my position...

[fionwe1987]

Dude stop being an ass, you aint the author so what you know is what we know. You talk like you are the fuckn creator.

Just saw this. Don't you know that I'm Brandon Sanderson? :worried:

[Old Nan]

Even Brandon endorses my position...

Brandon is the one who wrote the following about Mary al'Sue:

Siuan Sanche on being overthrown and tortured:

For all her tyranny and foolishness, it is good that Elaida removed me, because that is what led us to Egwene.

-- Towers of Midnight, “The Amyrlin’s Anger”

Melaine on Egwene:

I believe it is us, and the world itself, who are in your debt, Egwene al’Vere.

-- Towers of Midnight, “Wounds”

So yes, you're probably right that she will play a key role in the finale, ethically reprehensible as the girl is.

[L’Age d’or]

Just saw this. Don't you know that I'm Brandon Sanderson? :worried:

And I'm John Steinbeck.

[Slurktan]

But Perrin doesn't dismiss them with a thought. He gets sucked into them, and it takes him some time to get rid of it. We're told the Wise Ones dismiss nightmares as a matter of course, and Egwene learned form them, and has been accepted as an equal by them.

Did you read ToM? Perrin doesn't get sucked into the nightmares, he willingly goes into them. Particularly the second one which he uses as a trap to Slayer. Seriously did you even read his chapters at all?

Isn't that almost exactly what I said? Perrin may certainly one day equal Egwene. I certainly wouldn't bet on one of them vs. the other in a battle of wills like Egwene vs. Mesaana. But the wolves just cannot do the stuff the Wise Ones can. They cannot imagine themselves to be human beings, but the Wise Ones can imagine themselves as animals.

The Wolves can't, Perrin can. Regardless as to a battle of wills, that is irrelevant unless you are a fanboy. Perrin would kill her instantly if he wanted to, much as Slayer could. She cannot run from him, cannot hide from him, cannot channel at him.

But they are both more skilled than Alivia, Egwene more so. Strength doesn't matter at all. Egwene can just get Vora's sa'angreal and overmatch Nynaeve by a great extent. What matters is skill.

Egwene has more skill at channeling? You do realize she put up such a fight against the Seanchan because of linking and her Seanchan battle training right? You know that very same training that Alivia has? And regardless to either, Rand has Cadsuane. Or are you going to be idiotic and say Egwene is a better channeler than her too?

First off, Amys tells her books ago that she will be far stronger than Amys, and Amys herself is the strongest Aiel Dreamwalker. Plus, even as a novice, Egwene got out of Moghedien's dream-trap. And Moggy is the strongest of the Foresaken Dreamwalkers.

As of ToM, we also have Bair telling Egwene that they can no longer think of her as their trainee in the Dream. As a Dreamwalker, Egwene has come into her own.

As of ToM we also have Bair and Melaine treating her like a child in TAR.

Nope. He cannot spy on people's dream or bring them into TAR and trap them there.

Huh? You can't change your body in TAR to even heal yourself. I highly doubt Perrin could make himself a channeler in TAR. And should Egwene hit out at him with a club of Air (which is invisible), Perrin would just die, since he cannot sense channeling.

Should Perrin hit her in the head with a hammer after appearing a foot above her she would just die. He is far better at maneouvring in TAR than she is. Even if she could channel a club of air at him, he would never allow her to see him, whereas he can track her at will and teleport into her immediate vicinity and attack, then disappear immediately again. In a straight fight, Egwene would have absolutely no chance against Perrin in TAR. Not even remotely. Same as against Slayer. She would be killed immediately.

EDIT to add:

Why can't Perrin change himself into a channeler? Are you going to argue that change would require more effort than turning a human body into a wolf would which Perrin can and has done?

You can't heal yourself in TAR, you can certainly change.

Only with effort, though.

As opposed to Egwene when she does it with no effort right? Oh right that has never happened. And regardless Perrin dispells the second nightmare in ToM with absolutely no effort at all. He doesn't even think of it, it is just gone once he gets out of it what he wants.

She does not, but she knows how to bring someone having a normal dream into a TAR scenario of her own making. She doesn't do so because the Wise One's consider it evil.

And Perrin cannot do this why?

See above. We haven't seen her do such stuff since the WO think that its typical use, which was against people unused to TAR, is evil.

Oh I see so in your pathetic argument Egwene is allowed to have skills she has never demonstrated(or evidence of her having learned) whatsoever but Perrin can't do the same just because.

Pathetic.

[peterbound]

Man, I thought the ASOIF vs Mazalan arguments got petty and nasty. Little did I now the real heat is in the 'i know more about WOT than you do' thread.

[Old Nan]

I thought the ASOIF vs Mazalan arguments got petty and nasty.

Wait, there's an argument?

[fionwe1987]

Did you read ToM? Perrin doesn't get sucked into the nightmares, he willingly goes into them. Particularly the second one which he uses as a trap to Slayer. Seriously did you even read his chapters at all?

Of course he chooses to get in. But he doesn't get out immediately. He even complains about it to Hopper!

In the very last nightmare we see him enter:

He knew this nightmare was not real. And yet, how could one not feel the horror of it?...

Of course, Perrin isn't trying too hard to dismiss the nightmare here. But he still does have some difficulty disbelieving it, as he says himself.

As for Egwene, way back in tFoH, she had this to say:

"There are worse things here, but nightmares are bad enough. I made these, and

unmade them, but even I have trouble with those I just find. And I did not try to hold them, Nynaeve."

Shortly after, Moghedien tries to trap her in a dream of her own making, where Egwene thinks she's a simple country woman and is married to Gawyn. Moghedien had this to say:

The girl had been stronger than she had thought, to escape her weaving of Tel'aran'rhiod. Even Lanfear could not improve on her abilities here, whatever she claimed.

Now, when Perrin starts doing stuff that impresses Moghedien, we can start claiming he has equalled Egwene.

The Wolves can't, Perrin can. Regardless as to a battle of wills, that is irrelevant unless you are a fanboy. Perrin would kill her instantly if he wanted to, much as Slayer could. She cannot run from him, cannot hide from him, cannot channel at him.

Fanboy? You're the one who seems to be a Perrin fanboy, claiming he can kill her instantly. You do realize that her not being to run or hide means nothing right? She is a Dreamwalker. The fight between her and Perrin will be about their control of the Dream. And Brandon says there's no saying who'd win, which is what the books suggest as well. Plus, she has a huge advantage with channeling. Perrin can't see weaves. He will have no way of stopping an invisible club of Air should Egwene throw it at him because he has no way of seeing it.

As for Slayer... the man ran away from Nynaeve. What the hell makes you think he'd give Egwene any trouble?

Egwene has more skill at channeling? You do realize she put up such a fight against the Seanchan because of linking and her Seanchan battle training right?

No, actually I don't. She won because she was much stronger and could split her flows in more ways than we have seen anyone save Rand achieve. And we have zero evidence the Seanchan can do any such thing.

You know that very same training that Alivia has?

Alivia has great skill with weaves of destruction and nothing else. She can't even protect herself from the rain, and the same is true of all damane. Now, if you think exploding the earth and throwing fireballs will help defeat the Dark One...

And regardless to either, Rand has Cadsuane. Or are you going to be idiotic and say Egwene is a better channeler than her too?

She certainly is. Cadsaune has never shown the ability to split her weaves in 14 ways at once, that too while dulled with Forkroot. Nynaeve is probably the only channeler in the Tower today who has greater skill.

As of ToM we also have Bair and Melaine treating her like a child in TAR.

Melaine turned to Egwene, eyes wide with surprise.

"Perhaps it is time to stop thinking of you as an apprentice, Egwene al'Vere," Amys said.

Melaine eyed the Forsaken as Egwene sent herself out of the dream. "I believe it is us, and the world itself, who are in your debt, Egwene al'Vere."

Amys sighed and set aside her cup of wine, but it was Bair who spoke. “Much is uncertain, even to a

dreamwalker. Amys and Melaine are the best of us, and even they do not see all that is, or all that can be.”

You have a strong talent for the dream; very likely you will outstrip any of us by far, one day. (Amys)

Need I go on? There is ample evidence that Egwene had the potential to outstrip the WO, and as of ToM, they seem to think she has at least equaled them, and one of them thinks herself in Egwene's debt. Egwene was also able to impress Moghedien way back when she was still a novice being trained. I don't see why you're insisting that Egwene isn't the strongest Dreamwalker we know of save possibly Moghedien. There is ample evidence in the text to support that.

Should Perrin hit her in the head with a hammer after appearing a foot above her she would just die.

And the same is true the other way around. Should Morghase stick a knife into Rand from behind, he'd just die too. Doesn't change the fact that she's the weakest channeler we know and he the strongest.

He is far better at maneouvring in TAR than she is.

Show me some evidence for this. We have Brandon dismissing that notion, so I don't see what evidence you can provide anyway, but do try.

Even if she could channel a club of air at him, he would never allow her to see him, whereas he can track her at will and teleport into her immediate vicinity and attack, then disappear immediately again.

What makes you think she'll allow him to see her, or not teleport around? She doesn't even need to concentrate to become invisible. There's a simple OP weave for it.

In a straight fight, Egwene would have absolutely no chance against Perrin in TAR. Not even remotely. Same as against Slayer. She would be killed immediately.

:rolleyes: I repeat... Slayer ran away from Nynaeve. Later, he ran away from Egwene too. Why the hell do you think he'd be a threat to her?

EDIT to add:

Why can't Perrin change himself into a channeler? Are you going to argue that change would require more effort than turning a human body into a wolf would which Perrin can and has done?

Perrin is a wolfbrother. So he can change into a wolf. As for channeling... it is a matter of the soul, not just the body. If Perrin can't even imagine a wound close (and Slayer says that is impossible, and Egwene's previous experience says the same), how can he change his very soul and become a channeler? Why don't the wolves try to become men? Why don't Dreamwalkers imagine they are the Creator? You just can't... Even if he imagines himself as a channeler and succeeds, Perrin will likely burn himself out the moment he tries to channel. You can't imagine yourself as knowledgeable in TAR either. As a channeler, he'd do more harm to himself than good.

You can't heal yourself in TAR, you can certainly change.

Your soul itself? I think not. Loads of evidence against it.

As opposed to Egwene when she does it with no effort right? Oh right that has never happened. And regardless Perrin dispells the second nightmare in ToM with absolutely no effort at all. He doesn't even think of it, it is just gone once he gets out of it what he wants.

Egwene does the same with Moghedien's constructs well before she's fully trained.

And Perrin cannot do this why?

Because he cannot access people's dreams?

Oh I see so in your pathetic argument Egwene is allowed to have skills she has never demonstrated(or evidence of her having learned) whatsoever but Perrin can't do the same just because.

Or, with a hooking sort of motion, like rolling a fragile bead across a tabletop, she could snatch Nynaeve out, into a dream of her own making, a part of Tel'aran'rhiod itself, where she was in complete control. She was sure that would work. Of course, that was one of the forbidden things, and she did not think Nynaeve would appreciate it.

Pathetic.

Yes, that is exactly the word I would use to describe your knowledge of WoT.

[fionwe1987]

Turns out I was right about Egwene tying Perrin up:

3) Q: Much has been made of Egwene’s thought to tie up Perrin in the midst of a battle that could have brought about his death if he had not been able to stop her. Such apparent negligence is shocking considering her knowledge of how quickly things can happen in T’A’R. Can you Explain Egwene’s thought process? Did she intend to leave Perrin there while she finished the battle?

A: (not verbatim) Egwene thought she was doing the right thing. She was acting as the Amyrlin and trying to make sure that he would be safe and out of the way of danger. She was not going to tie him up and leave him, she would have brought him somewhere safe away from the danger of the fight and left him there until it was over.

Like I said, it was just a matter of rushed writing, not Egwene deciding to leave Perrin to die.

[SpaceChampion]

Egwene was still waiting for the kick while Perrin had already planted the thought into Scarecrow's dream at the 5th level.

[fionwe1987]

Egwene was still waiting for the kick while Perrin had already planted the thought into Scarecrow's dream at the 5th level.

Egwene only delivers kicks. She never needs them. :smoking: