Jump to content


Photo

[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion Mk. II


  • Please log in to reply
218 replies to this topic

#1 Xray the Enforcer

Xray the Enforcer

    Ginslayer

  • Board Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,590 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:06 AM

continue discussion of Ep 208. Remember, keep it classy and civil.

#2 Pellaeon

Pellaeon

    The winged lion

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,227 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:11 AM

Good episode, I love the Tyrion, Bronn, Varys part but the Robb Talisa part was boring

#3 Rockroi

Rockroi

    The Rock That Roared

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,291 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:57 AM

From the prior thread:

I hated that they gave Robb the lines that Eddard is supposed to have told him about a man being brave when he is afraid. Ok, they left the lines out from the discussion between Brandon and Eddard at the beginning. It is shame, but I can live with it. But giving this to Robb talking to this random Volantene is just wrong.


I actually thought that this worked. Just to point out the obvious: the show has the luxury that MArtin's POV system did not, namely adding first-hand context to Robb's (embarrassingly bad) decision to reneg on the betrothal. Here the show wants to give us more face-time with Robb and they want to paint Robb as the decent, honorable and courageous leader with a streak of romanticism. Instead of having a relatively simplistic story of Robb vbeing wounded and then bedded and then, of course, having to marry that woman who boff'd him, this story has a more gradual movement. Slowly and surely these two people continue to grow together and inexorably find a bond. And to do THAT you need those moments of honesty and revelation (ie: "I am revealing to you something deeply personal; please do not betray by trust in doing so."). Having Robb talk about Ned, his father, to a woman he obviously loves works in that context. I don't think its a failure at all but a very good rearrangement of Ned's wisdom.

And its a good excuse to show how Ned still influences his children.

As is the whole Robb+Volantene romance. She is becoming his personal Ros now.


Can't agree. First, Roz is a wholly invented character while the Volanese woman is a representation of Jayne and is replacing her. Roz does not replace anyone. While Roz is basically a catch-all to give us context to scenes we otherwise would have no link to, she is a relatively empty space- she adds nothing to the story and provides no insight. The Volanese woman, meanwhile, is a deeply effecting character to the story as she and Robb are slowly meandering down the path to certain disaster. This has huge ramifications.

But its more: in the series we have the opportunity to actually meet Robb and interact with him; in the books we knew him only second hand through Cat (and to a much lesser degree through Bran). Martin has said several times that if he had it to do all over again he would have given Robb a POV. Okay, with THAT said, Robb's love must seem genuine and real or its a failure. Robb cannot just get married off-stage (as he did in the book) and just explain it away after the fact. No. we are now WITH Robb so if he suddenly marries a foreign woman ... well.. we better know a reason why. That reason why MUST be real and genuine. To me, the show has done a very good job of making that relationship seem genuine.

By contrast nothing about Roz feels real; she is grossly tacked on to the show and is only there to provide a place-holder so the audience knows what is going on. And ... and it does not help that the actress playing Roz is ... decent but not very good (ie: if you are going to have a scene where a character cries the actress may actually want to actually cry).

Also, he was terrible to Catelyn, much more than is the books.


Well, there's a reason for that. In the books, Robb confronts Cat after Robb himself has fucked up and married Jayne, so he knows that he needs top forgive Cat to get her forgiveness (and help). Also, in the books, Cat frees Jaime after she is told Bran and Rickon are dead. I think the show is rushing the Cat story-line in an attempt to take time-pressure off the next season (SoS is a HUGE book- as I have stated before: a certain pair of weddings take place at page 585 and 684 respectively.... that's appx 2/3 of the way through the books- we still have another 300+ pages to go after that). Therefore, Robb's words seem more cruel because he does not have the mitigating circumstance of his mother having to mourne Bran and Rickon. He is free to be more honest with her on her horrible act.

Again, Cat's actions lose so much empathy because they were done without the context of Bran and Rickons "deaths"; that is a harder sell and Robb is not bound to be kinder to his mother without it.

#4 legba11

legba11

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 286 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:07 AM

I forgot to add my (killed the thread) post in Mk I.

Have they just thrown LF knowing about Arya out the window? They have this great scene, with a significant plot development, and then it just disappears in a puff of smoke.

#5 insertname

insertname

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 114 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:32 AM

The same can be said of Tywin. If he did know she was Arya(I assume this wasn't the case), why leave her with Gregor? But if he didn't know exactly who she was, why did he make no move to find out who she is? There aren't exactly many northern highborn girls running around ready to be captured, so Tywin should at least be a bit intrigued who she is...but nope.

#6 legba11

legba11

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 286 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:59 AM

He clearly did not know. LF even tested his knowledge when he (LF) found it out with his comment about DaughterSSSS.

I loved how Tywin/Arya ended. It was a meaningless arc (plotwise), but developed both characters better than Martin ever did. And it ended perfectly. After weeks of soulful conversations, clearly a bond forming, Tywin casually tosses Arya into the meat grinder because she serves no purpose for Tywin Lannister. That moment so perfectly defines his character. With 5 seconds of effort, he could have put her in a good position (working somewhere decent in Harranhal or even dispatching her with a couple of peon guards to Moat Caitlin for a small ransom, she is a Northern Highborn). But no, it's not worth that 5 seconds of effort, so he gives her to the worst human being on the planet.

LF, however, did know who she is. He also knew Tywin did not know. I don't understand how he would leave Harrenhal without such a valuable commodity. It's like seeing a copy of Detective Comics #1 at a yard sale, and not paying the $2 they are asking for it. I understand that story-wise they can't let LF get her, because her story doesn't go that way, but we should have seen LF's plot to grab her get foiled.

#7 Arkash

Arkash

    Time Lord beyond the Sunset Sea

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,262 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 09:47 AM

Does anyone else think the fact that they put the horn among the dragonglass means it will have some importance later on ?

#8 Grey Robb

Grey Robb

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 10:54 AM

Regarding Tyrion and the Chain or lack thereof: I put a few context clues together from the Varys/Tyrion/Bronn banter and I believe they are scraping the chain entirely in favor of another method.

I think Tyrion "the Highborn Plumber of Casterly Rock" will devise some scheme with flushing rather than flinging a majority of the wildfire into the waters of Blackwater Rush. The scene with Bronn shooting the fire arrow made it seem as though he could have been using it to set the contaminated river ablaze. I still think they will probably fling some wildfire, and use ships full of wildfire as battering rams, but I think the crux of the plan will be the river itself.

Not necessarily as ingenious as the chain, but it serves the same purpose of "trapping" and eviscerating Stannis' fleet. It's probably a lot more budget conscious as well, and would still be creditable to Tyrion's ingenuity. Just a thought.

#9 WillWork4NinjaPowers

WillWork4NinjaPowers

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,416 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:00 AM

My guess:
Talisa will tell Robb she is Jeyne. They story she gave is that of her Grandmother's. Robb will meet her family. Talisa/Jeyne is in on something with Roose, right now. There are knowing looks whenever they pass each other in the tent. I think they weren't planning on Jeyne actually falling in love with Robb. She was supposed to just be a spy, passing on info from Roose to Tywin. Roose is so adamant about Ramsay going to Winterfell, because that is part of the plan, for the Bolton's to hold Winterfell for Tywin. There was no Weasel Soup because in the TV version, Roose gets to take Harrenhall without a fight, since he is already partnered with Tywin.

Mandon Moore will try to kill Tyrion, Pod will save him.

No chain, but wildfire from the sewers, trapping the ships.

Not sure if there will be a "Renley" sighting.

Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie run into the Brotherhood.

#10 legba11

legba11

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 286 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:24 AM

The bay of wildfire seems quite plausible and really not much of a change.

I think we will definitely see "Renly", though likely it will be Loras. Maybe as Tyrion's last image before he drops unconscious. Even possible as the last shot of the episode.

#11 DurararaFTW

DurararaFTW

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,051 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:43 AM

The bay of wildfire seems quite plausible and really not much of a change. I think we will definitely see "Renly", though likely it will be Loras. Maybe as Tyrion's last image before he drops unconscious. Even possible as the last shot of the episode.


If they were gonna do "Renly", they would've given him an helmet and an armor with a striking color. Renly has a rich uniformthis season, but not exactly one that'll catch your attention from the top of a hill.

Edited by DurararaFTW, 22 May 2012 - 11:44 AM.


#12 rmholt

rmholt

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,613 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:25 PM

Does anyone else think the fact that they put the horn among the dragonglass means it will have some importance later on ?


It waas true to the book. It is minuscule compared to the purported horn of joramun and worse compared to drngonbinder. Plus it cannot make noise. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

Perhaps the original Weasel will reappear with it and use it to destroy the Others.

#13 legba11

legba11

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 286 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:34 PM

We'll see, i can visualize a fading Tyrion looking up, seeing Loras in the green armor (which we saw plenty of) and a stag helm (which we have not seen), and mumbling, "Renly?" as he passes out and the credits roll? I agree that they have not waved the armor in in our faces like Roz's nipples, but I would be surprised if they pass up on a moment like that. I've been wrong before, and will be again about the show. After the past two episodes, i have no idea what they're doing at this point, so...

#14 CrypticWeirwood

CrypticWeirwood

    The Wizard in the Tree

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,214 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:51 PM

It waas true to the book. It is minuscule compared to the purported horn of joramun and worse compared to drngonbinder. Plus it cannot make noise. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

Rubbish! It’s there because Martin made sure the showrunners knew it was somehow essential to the overall plot. There can be no other explanation. The Horn of Sam is definitely SOMETHING. We just don’t know what yet, whether in the show or in the books. But meaningful there can no longer be any doubt of its being.

#15 Craven Mummer

Craven Mummer

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 66 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:07 PM

Since D&D have gotten input from GRRM on the future plotlines, maybe the whole Jeyne/Talisa thing may take a more impotent role in the next book. If I remember correctly, Jeyne is not at the RW, and the possibility of a Stark heir is still unresolved.

(null)

#16 Buckwheat

Buckwheat

    Of the Shadow Company

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,967 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:09 PM

From the prior thread: I actually thought that this worked. Just to point out the obvious: the show has the luxury that MArtin's POV system did not, namely adding first-hand context to Robb's (embarrassingly bad) decision to reneg on the betrothal. Here the show wants to give us more face-time with Robb and they want to paint Robb as the decent, honorable and courageous leader with a streak of romanticism. Instead of having a relatively simplistic story of Robb vbeing wounded and then bedded and then, of course, having to marry that woman who boff'd him, this story has a more gradual movement. Slowly and surely these two people continue to grow together and inexorably find a bond. And to do THAT you need those moments of honesty and revelation (ie: "I am revealing to you something deeply personal; please do not betray by trust in doing so."). Having Robb talk about Ned, his father, to a woman he obviously loves works in that context. I don't think its a failure at all but a very good rearrangement of Ned's wisdom. And its a good excuse to show how Ned still influences his children.

I agree about that. It only felt somehow wrong to me, that is all.

Can't agree. First, Roz is a wholly invented character while the Volanese woman is a representation of Jayne and is replacing her. Roz does not replace anyone. While Roz is basically a catch-all to give us context to scenes we otherwise would have no link to, she is a relatively empty space- she adds nothing to the story and provides no insight. The Volanese woman, meanwhile, is a deeply effecting character to the story as she and Robb are slowly meandering down the path to certain disaster. This has huge ramifications. But its more: in the series we have the opportunity to actually meet Robb and interact with him; in the books we knew him only second hand through Cat (and to a much lesser degree through Bran). Martin has said several times that if he had it to do all over again he would have given Robb a POV. Okay, with THAT said, Robb's love must seem genuine and real or its a failure. Robb cannot just get married off-stage (as he did in the book) and just explain it away after the fact. No. we are now WITH Robb so if he suddenly marries a foreign woman ... well.. we better know a reason why. That reason why MUST be real and genuine. To me, the show has done a very good job of making that relationship seem genuine. By contrast nothing about Roz feels real; she is grossly tacked on to the show and is only there to provide a place-holder so the audience knows what is going on. And ... and it does not help that the actress playing Roz is ... decent but not very good (ie: if you are going to have a scene where a character cries the actress may actually want to actually cry).

Heh, I wrote this just because she reminded me of Ros in one moment when Robb starts talking about his problems and she is there only for him to have someone to talk to.

I do not really think their relationship works (I like it better in the books, despite there we know almost nothing about it), but opinions differ in that, apparently. :shrug:

#17 Mista C

Mista C

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:25 PM

Regarding Tyrion and the Chain or lack thereof: I put a few context clues together from the Varys/Tyrion/Bronn banter and I believe they are scraping the chain entirely in favor of another method. I think Tyrion "the Highborn Plumber of Casterly Rock" will devise some scheme with flushing rather than flinging a majority of the wildfire into the waters of Blackwater Rush. The scene with Bronn shooting the fire arrow made it seem as though he could have been using it to set the contaminated river ablaze. I still think they will probably fling some wildfire, and use ships full of wildfire as battering rams, but I think the crux of the plan will be the river itself. Not necessarily as ingenious as the chain, but it serves the same purpose of "trapping" and eviscerating Stannis' fleet. It's probably a lot more budget conscious as well, and would still be creditable to Tyrion's ingenuity. Just a thought.


Wow! Never even thought of that, but I believe you are absolutely right. The "pig shit" comment, plus Tyrion's story to Varys about being "the Highborn Plumber of Casterly Rock" seems very obvious now! They will somehow "flush" jars of wildfire into the bay to ignite, maybe behind the fleet once it enters the bay. Not the same as the chain, but kinda along the same lines. And the whole time he was telling the story about being in charge of the plumbing at Casterly Rock, I was like "where is this story going?"

#18 Rickon is FIERCE

Rickon is FIERCE

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 323 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

@legba11

Since prev. thread is locked I can't quote you, but I think it's personal interpretation re: whether the Halfhand was "captured" or no. It just reads tougher to me to have him die- sacrificially to boot- before anyone could technically take him into custody. I respect him more. It echoes something of the grit in the old Hollywood westerns. Also lines up well with Ygritte's answer to his question in the prev. episode, which is why I find it bizarre that he now shows up a prisoner. Don't really know what the point of having her say that was.

#19 RL Terrill

RL Terrill

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 14 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:23 PM

Did Robb actually get to the Crag? I cannot seem to remember that being confirmed by word or deed. Perhaps the msg about Cat freeing Jamie stopped him from reaching the Crag ....

#20 Rockroi

Rockroi

    The Rock That Roared

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,291 posts

Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:43 PM

Talisa will tell Robb she is Jeyne. The story she gave is that of her Grandmother's. Robb will meet her family. Talisa/Jeyne is in on something with Roose, right now. There are knowing looks whenever they pass each other in the tent. I think they weren't planning on Jeyne actually falling in love with Robb. She was supposed to just be a spy, passing on info from Roose to Tywin. Roose is so adamant about Ramsay going to Winterfell, because that is part of the plan, for the Bolton's to hold Winterfell for Tywin. There was no Weasel Soup because in the TV version, Roose gets to take Harrenhall without a fight, since he is already partnered with Tywin.


This may be true, but there is one problem: its not economical. What I mean is that it complicates a relatively simple story line. If Robb marries Jayne/Talisa it does not matter that much if she is a Westerling of a Volanese. To Walder Frey a betrayal is a betrayal. We then advance the story in much the same way regardless of whether or not we ever meet the character's family. This way- if Talisa is exactly what she says she is -we still get to the Red Wedding without any fuss or muss. Tywin can still get wind of this and still alert Frey and Bolton (its possible Bolton is Tywin's spy, not Talisa).

However, if Talisa is Jayne Westerling, we then have to spend time introducing us all to her family, which means more actors, more plot, more time with Robb and draws us away from the other major players. In other words, more time an effort that would all be saved if Robb just marries this Volanese woman he has loved for so long. Same betrayal, same outcomes, BUT more economical as the writers have already completed that investment in the story and WOULD NOT have to reinvest in it in the third season.