The Use of Rape in ASoIaF: The Critics Speak

[Rockroi]

The question is one that, in retrospect, I am embarrassed to say never bothered me before.

http://www.newstates...rape-james-bond

In the above-article, Sophia McDougall, an alternate-history/fantasy writer makes an impassioned and relatively well-thought out argument on how outrageous rape is used in sci-fi fantasy and most fiction. And she cites as her most off-setting argument that female rape is used gratuitously in sci-fi/fantasy and NOT as a token of realism. Her case-in-point?

How come, regardless of setting, rape is never done to a man?

She says that when a bad situation befalls a man he is rarely, if ever, in fiction, exposed to potential rape, yet women are exposed to it at almost every turn.

She cites examples in The Dark Knight Rises (how come Bruce Wayne is never raped while in jail) and James Bond (never raped despite the plethora of horrible people he is exposed to; the author does note that this changed in Skyfall, when Bond is sexually “assaulted” by Javier Bardem’s character).

McDougal then launches a rather verbose attack on George R.R. Martin’s work, and this is where I would like to limit the discussion. McDougal (and many before her) have a rather specific criticism: how come Martin infuses his work with rape so much? McDougal says its NOT for the purpose of creating a more real world nor for “realism.” No. She says that she can prove this, namely, that no male in this world is afraid of being raped when they moist certainly could be. She states:

To briefly return to A Song of Ice and Fire: The Black Watch (sic), an all-male organisation that’s a bit like the Catholic church and a bit like the military, has a bit of a bullying problem. Some of the recruits are explicitly "rapers". But none of the bullying turns sexual, not even from characters who have form as perpetrators of sexual violence. None of the boys suffers rape. Neither do any of the male peasants who are taken prisoner at various points by various factions. Despite being smaller and weaker than most of his male peers, Tyrion does not get raped, nor is he made to fear rape, either when captured by enemy noblemen or surrounded by hundreds of violent, volatile outlaws. They threaten to kill him, even to mutilate him, but not to rape him. Why not? Isn’t this supposed to be a grim, ruthless, realistic world?

This has set off a whole host of intellectual questions in me. But only two can I get into here.

First, how much validity to McDougal’s complaint of rape, men v. women in ASoIaF?

Second, should I be and have I ever been outraged over the use of rape in the books?

Before I begin, let me set a disclaimer: First, I am talking only about the books, not the show; second, I do not think anyone should consume something in art that they do not want to consume; third, rape is ugly and I do not believe that a person who enjoys a type of art on the whole somehow condones rape merely because it appears in that work, much in the same way that I do not condone murder merely because murder appears in the books (or theft, arson, etc). Finally, this topic is very very very touchy and I spent some time thinking about all of this (and as you can tell, writing about it); can we have a constructive discussion and not see this topic insta-locked? I actually am interested in this discussion and not in merely creating controversy.

The first question- is Martin guilty of gratuitously using rape when there is no hint of male-rape in the books- is difficult because it lends to an uncomfortable colloquialism, namely, “How much rape is too much rape?” That’s not the question. The question is “Is Martin’s use of rape real or gritty or true to life or is it gratuitous?” And “Is there any evidence of male rape in ASoIaF? “

For starters there is a lot of rape in the books Below is a brief extrapolation of various rape events in the books:

AGOT

- Rhaegar’s “rape” of Lyanna

- Lannister group rape of Tysha

- Dany witnesses many rapes by the Dothrakai blood riders on the lamb men;

- Mirri Maz Duur is raped

- Daeron of the NW claims he was sent to the Wall due to a rape (or a claimed rape)

-Many in the NW are rapers;

- Khal Drogo proclaims that he will invade Westeros, kill the men and rape their women. He is cheered.

-When acting as Hand, the people of the Riverlands tell Ned Stark that the Mountain killed men and raped the women.

- Qotho states that Dany is to be raped alongside the magi; Mormont kills him.

CoK

-The Ironborne take incredible pride in their raping

-Lollys is violently raped in the streets of King’s Landing

-Palla, daughter or Farlen, is raped by two Ironborn after the sack of Winterfell (Theon has the two men whipped).

SoS

-Although not raped, Brienne is terrified of possibly being raped.

-Chiswyck tells a horrifying tale wherein the Mountain rapes a tavern keeper’s daughter, probably one of the most stomach-churning scenes in the books;

-During the sack of King’s Landing, The Mountain rapes (and kills) Elia of Dorne

-During the Sack of King’s Landing, Amory Lorch rapes (and kills) Princess Rhaenys

-Marrillion attempts to rape Sansa after the wedding of LF and Lady Lysa

-After the rampaging members of the NW kill Craster, they start raping his wives

AFfC

-Aerys almost certainly raped Lady Rhaella to conceive Dany

-When Jaime executes a man for raping pretty Pia, the man seems perplexed at the justice, seeming to think its not fair to execute somebody merely for raping a peasant woman.

-Marribald, the travelling priest, describes how many of his mates ended up in the War of the Ninepenny Kings; one, Jon, was hanged for rape

ADwD

-Ramsey Bolton is the product of rape between Roose and a Milner’s wife

-Danny Flint was a girl who dressed up as a boy to become a member of the Night's Watch and when discovered is raped and murdered.

-Stannis’ punishes rape with gelding. Because Stannis is awesome.

I obviously must have left out a few that have escaped my feeble memory.

Point is clear: rape is in every single book, it permeates the book. It as much a part of the books as political intrigue, battle and travel.

And yet, so is murder, incest and destruction. In fact, if Martin’s universe is true of anything its that the world is filled with personal, unfathomable pain. And in ASoIaF its also populated by fear.

I cannot and will not speak for women, but many women, in the real world, are at the very least aware of the possibility that they could be raped, while men… are not, or at the very least do not concern themselves with this thought. Certainly women take far more precautions than men that are influenced by the fear of rape. Men do not avoid dark places when walking alone; men are not told to carry mace or pepper-spray to ward off attackers; certainly men are not admonished on how they act and in what they wear because that may (sorry to say) “send the wrong message” to potential rapists (please- I am not saying I agree with this).

But men are raped in this world (McDougal claims that 1 in 33 men are raped); if Martin’s world is so realistic, how come male rape does not appear in ASoIaF? How come male rape does not appear in pop culture at all?

Well, for starters, it took me 2.75 seconds to think of a pop-culture example of male rape, one of the most popular movies of the last twenty-five Years, The Shawshank Redemption details this. We then have Good Will Hunting and Mystic River as examples of male rape in movies set in Boston alone. Fine.

But how come its not in ASoIaF?

A part of me rejects the premise outright. For starters, just because male rape is not offered in the series that does not somehow make the female rape any less realistic or germane. Women have, unfortunately, been raped for thousands of years. Their rape has not only been de facto condoned, but legally condoned (think of the fact that for years it was “legally” impossible for man to “rape” his own wife, regardless of circumstances); it’s been explained away by a legion of apologists (“Boys will be boys” and “She was asking for it; just look at what she was wearing.”). It’s cruel and its real.

And that’s why, I would like to think, its in the books. Because it explains a heavy and dark threat that women have lived under for, literally, ever. I think the books encapsulate that fear so very well because it presents that fear not as unjustified but as true and omni-present.

As an example: let’s say in the books there was this disease, the “Green Plague” and it hit only men age 18-65. And constantly men talked about it, and there were scenes of men washing their hands to avoid the Green Plague; the Maesters spoke of medicines that could combat the Green Plague; people talked about people in the past who had contracted the disease; and there was ample discussion about how NOBODY wanted to get it because they would die.

And yet… for 5000 pages (more or less) NOBODY EVER GOT GREEN PLAGUE! Oh sure they talked a good game, but not a single character ever got it nor knew of anyone who got it, on or off the pages. That would seem odd, right? Would make it seem “much ado bout nothing,” right? Would trivialize it, right?

And in there lies the rub.

Trivializing rape is far far far worse than describing it, even graphically even many many times. Would anyone believe that these women should “justifiably” fear rape if the reader never saw it? Wouldn’t we accuse the author of not making the books real and by making the women afraid of something that, in that world, never happened?

And what about the reader’s knowledge of our world when superimposed on Westeros and its relatively “mirrored” Western, Medieval culture? The reader knows, full well, that rape is real. What if it was never described; what if the reader did not know of any character or heard of anyone in the universe that had been raped? Wouldn’t it seem far less real? Imagine a Dothrakai hoard that killed and pillaged but did not rape? What about the Ironborn who pillage lands on the closer shores but do not rape the women? Even though we know, full well, that Vikings, nomadic horsemen and even knights of old all raped. We would think it all a little… light-weight, right?

So, just on this alone, if there was little, if any, rape in the books, we would think the women unrealistic or, worse, “overreacting” to a fear that was actually not prevalent OR we would find the whole setting unrealistic. And isn’t ONE of the reasons we like these books because it seems so realistic?

But what about no male rapes?

If you look at Westeros, while I could not find a single example of male-male “rape” I did note a few significant examples of male-male sexual violence/objectification.

First, there is the most obvious example: the Unsullied. The boys of Essos are cattle-herded into service and either die or suffer genital mutilation in order to become super-warriors. To me, this is the cross roads of two horrifying ideas: sexual pain for the purpose of increased martial ability - the Unsullied are seen as better warriors specifically because they are eunuchs. Is genital mutilation the same as rape? Fuck. No. But it’s a type of violence against a sex that is clearly horrible and has deep pangs that echo against sexuality.

Second, there is Varys. Varys is also a eunuch, but here his lack of sexual identity is distrusted; in fact many people distrust Varys precisely because he is a eunuch; as if he had any choice in the matter to begin with! Much like the rape victim, Varys is almost being blamed for the action done to him.

Third, while never specifically described as a “rape” the grotesque, “slave-army” menagerie described in ADwD teams with every type of perversion, vice, and loathsome activity including, well, slavery and forced sex. In fact, some of the male slaves are having sex against their will. Isn’t that, well, rape?

ETA

After lengthy discussions, the boarders feel as if the following examples show male to male rape and/or sexualized violence:

-Maester Kerwin on the boat with Victarion in ADwD complaining about being used as a woman. Victarion's response is only to give the man a knife and defend (or kill) himself. (ADwD)

-Septon Utt was a pedophile (SoS).

-Ser Corbray in the Vale that is said to favor young boys (though, given the ambiguity of this, its not clear how “young” they are and/or if Corbray only takes consenting “boys”)(AFfC).

-Aeron might have been molested by Euron (AFfC)

-Theon having to "prepare" Jeyne Poole for Ramsay (in fact, this is obviously a type of rape on both characters)(ADwD)

-Believing that Arya is actually a boy, Rorge says "Come closer … and I'll shove that stick up your bunghole and fuck you bloody." (CoK)

(I did not include Joff's possible abuse of Tommen because I do not feel its per se sexual).

Female-to-male sexualized violence and rape:

-In SoS, the Red Viper describes seeing Cersei grab baby-Tyrion’s penis so hard that he began to cry; the scene seemed to indicate that she had done it many times before.

-Lysa describes basically having her way with a drunk Petre Baelish who could not do anything for himself and probably thought it was Cat Tully.

(I did not include Jon and Ygritte nor Gilly and Sam because there appears to be significant debate about these examples)

Finally, how does this reflect on Martin?

Another blog had this to say:

…One of the most fundamental failures of the society Martin is chronicling is its endemic cultural misogyny. Name a major catastrophe that befalls Westeros or Essos and their people, and you’re probably no more than two degrees of separation from a direct link to the subjugation of women as second-class citizens—through primogeniture, through sexist chivalry, through arranged marriage, through rape as a weapon of war and fact of life. I don’t know whether Martin self-identifies as feminist the way Doyle or Rosenberg or I do, but that’s a profoundly feminist message, just as his relentless depiction of the folly and horror of war is a profoundly anti-war message.

The progressivism of A Song of Ice and Fire comes from rubbing our faces in the reactionary brutality of its world, in the hope that we’ll see it more clearly, and fight it more fiercely, in the world we see when we look up again. That’s a progressivism worth defending.

I think that says it all; that Martin’s work is a description of a failure, and that failure breeds rape and hatred of women and ignorance. And it stems, in one form or another, from the treatment of women as chattel, as second-class citizens. Martin also uses rape to describe horrible people, not conflicted ones. The characters that condone or sanction or commit rape- Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, the Dothrakai, the slavers etc -are some of the most hated characters in the books! Martin does not portray moral ambiguity through rape. Rape is always portrayed as an evil. The most conflicted characters- Jaime, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, the Hound, Stannis- Martin NEVER uses rape as a vehicle to describe their personal struggle. IN FACT- quite the opposite: rape is for the “bad guys” and those characters who are good STOP rape when they can (Jaime kills the men at Harrenhal who raped Pia, Dany stops rape outright, Stannis gelds rapers; Tyrion will not even have sex with Sansa, his legal wife, because he knows it would be wrong).

To me, the use of rape is a cautionary tale than anything else and a line of demarcation.

But… I can’t let myself off the hook so easily.

The second question is far more personal. In the 20+ rapes that I described… how come I was never morally outraged at the rapes generally or at any one or two of them? How come I accepted them so easily? So uncritically? And how come none of them ever “angered” me?

If this were true, I knew I would hate myself for it.

In my defense I will say that there is at least one character who’s entire reputation hinges on a “rape” and that is Rhaegar Targaryen. I don’t care how many good things thee people say about him; if it turns out he did kidnap and Rape Lyanna… sorry, you’re as bad as Aerys, fucknut.

But how come I was never angered by the rapes? Is it as easy as saying I was also never angered by the murders? The child cruelty? The slavery?

I was about to give up when, almost subtly… I remembered something Shae said (book Shea; not that train-wreck TV Shea…). I was thinking about it because it reminded me how cruel these people could be:

“She’s asleep. Sleep’s all she ever wants to do, the great cow. She sleeps and she eats. Sometimes she falls asleep while she’s eating. The food falls under the blankets and she rolls in it, and I have to clean her.” She made a disgusted face. “All they did was fuck her.”

“Her mother says she’s sick.”

“She has a baby in her belly, that’s all.”

Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones/A Clash of Kings (Kindle Locations 25229-25232). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

Lollys.

I had forgotten.

And that was the moment I remembered when I started hating Shae. Why?

Because I – when I read it and when I think about it today – feel that Lolly’s rape scene is one of the angriest I have ever been in reading these books. A nameless, faceless mass of men gang-raped a helpless girl. Forget that she was highborn or surrounded by armed men, or that she had money or status. No. Fuck all that.

None of that can protect a woman from a rape.

That set me off all on its own. I forgot it because Lollys is not the center of those scenes; its Sansa and the Hound (Sansa is not raped and its unclear if the mob was attempting to rape her). When I read that I felt true empathy for Lollys and I hated the books for doing that to a girl who had done nothing wrong (interestingly enough, I felt something similar when Fat Tom was killed basically because Ned was a tool) while everyone seemed only to care about Sansa.

But then Martin, as he can do, made me realize just how much I hate cruelty. Bad enough she was raped; bad enough she was scared by it. But no. No no no no…

Then Shea has to say “All they did was fuck her.”

Fuck you, Shea. No, seriously, fuck you. That’s something a bad person would say.

And how did we last see Shea? Living in her lie and showing where her heart really was all along.

Exactly!

To me, the true cruelty is in the lack of solidarity with Lollys. See, she’s just a fat, droopy, half-wit who got all bent out of shape because “all they did was fuck her.” That line- had it been from a man –would have been in poor taste. But because it came from a woman I thought Martin showed deft poise and grace:

The people- NOT THE GODS –were the cruel ones. And not just the rapist but the VERY PEOPLE who should have shown Lollys compassion and decency. Those people- Shea especially – were cruel, mean spirited, and maybe just a little bit sociopathic.

Shea showed us, even if we were not paying attention, that she was a sociopath. Not a whore, not a “working girl”, but a person who did not really care about other people; other women.

So when she ends up in Tywin’s bed, somehow it all makes so much sense.

Lollys’ rape was cruel, it was mean, it was horrible, and it was realistic. And when Shea does not show empathy we know something: that Shea’s reaction says a FUCK TON more about Shea than it ever does about rape.

And that’s why it works. That’s why it was good writing. And that was why Lollys’ rape still ranks, with me, as one of the most gut-churning parts of the books.

I could go on and on about this but my position is clear:

1. Martin’s work is a realistic description of a fantasy setting;

2. Women’s justified fear of rape is a real element in the world Martin created;

3. The use of rape as a plot devise is justified and does much for the story and in detailing the characters and their concerns;

4. The absence of the rape of men does not somehow cheapen the world;

5. Martin’s work is describing how the societies’ failure to treat women as equals goes almost hand-in-hand with the failures of these same societies; and

6. That the rape, while numerous, is not in and of itself, gratuitous.

I hope people can add to this discussion with disagreement, constructive criticism, and other forms of fruitful debate.

Thank you.

[karaddin]

I think I'm going to need to think on this for a while before I could do it justice with a decent reply, but I do have one immediate thought.

How the hell has it taken so long for the penny to drop for me regarding the nights watch. It's always bothered me exactly how they manage to take these horrible people and turn them into productive brothers of the nights watch, but I had never consciously mulled over what exactly I expected them to be doing. That's one of them, there really should be problems with it in the nights watch.

Was talking to Brook about it and she pointed out there is an outright male on male rape in the books though, there is the bit with the Maester on the boat with Victarion in aDwD complaining about being used as a woman. Not on screen, but I would also say the existence of the male sex slaves that are killed by Victarion also reinforce this point.

I hope this can stay civil as I too am interested in the discussion. There has been similar topics discussed in Lit, but not with the specific in depth focus on Martin (Bakker springs more to mind), but I think you've done a good job of highlighting some of the ways I think he probably has managed to address it a bit better than some other authors.

[peterbound]

Holy fuck balls that was a long post. My brain hurts.

And who gets raped in Good Will Hunting. I seemed to have forgotten that part.

[Lyanna Stark]

This should really be in the book forum and a lot is this is is also barking up the wrong tree. (The original, not yours Rockroi.)

Although Tyrion does rape in ADWD btw, when he is on his monster binge (being so popular though it is often whitewashed).

Also it is Shae, not Shea. It's not an ingredient in skin cream. :P

[Lummel]

Also Euron Greyjoy is male.

[Paladin of Ice]

Didn't read the whole thing, do want to point at that at least 1 male character in the books is raped, the Maester on Victarion's ship is raped by the crew. Victarion doesn't do anything to stop it other than give the man a dagger he'll almost certainly be too afraid to use and will likely get him killed if he tried. Victarion also threatens that he'll give the Maester to the entire crew to use as they see fit if said Maester can't heal his arm.There a

re also underage male prostituates like Satin, who probably didn't exactly choose that life, if we want to get into further issues of questionable consent. Not to mention the whole Theon-Ramsey thing, which has lots of this subtext, not to mention questionable consent again when Ramsay forces Theon into sexual acts with the fake Arya.

[Winter's Knight]

Re: Shae.

According to her backstory, Shae herself was sexually abused by her father and she treats it lightly when talking with Tyrion. Her attitude towards Lollys is indicative of a survival mechanism-by labelling the experience as no big deal, she is effectively trying to shield herself from her own trauma.

I've talked about the Night's Watch before on the book forums actually. Jon is supposed to be of above average attractiveness and is never warned against any older members? Satin too never seems to face the threat of being raped, despite filling out the usual stereotypical requirements as a victim: lowborn, pretty, young, can't fight, former sex worker. Jaime Lannister spends two years in enemy territory without so much as being threatened with rape.

In contrast, you have poor Pia who's entire story consists of "raped by soldiers", Cersei who's marital rape is a significant cause of her anger, resentment and infidelity, Rhaelia with her marital rape and then brutalisation by Gregor Clegane, Ereoh, Mirri Maaz Durr, Dany's Fall In Love With Rapist arc, Sansa narrowly missing being raped by Joff, the mob and Tyrion, now facing the prospect of LF's sexual advances, Tysha who, along with being identified as a rape victim, serves as Tyrion's motivation-her trauma is used to define him..

I can count two male rape victims-the maestar on Thick Vic's ship and Petyr Baelish.

[sperry]

Maybe I wasn't understanding it, but isn't Septon Utt supposed to be a pedophile? Or does he just kill the little boys?

Otherwise, I think really the only criticism I find valid is that of the Night's Watch. Like others have said, an all male essentially prison camp would probably have it's fair share of male rapes. Aside from that, I'm not sure where this person was expecting to see all these incidents of male rape? Prison and the military seem to be where most male rapes occur, but the only prisons we hear about don't have the common areas or shared cells that allow for rape in modern prisons. The military is also different, as everyone is sleeping out of doors, and not in barracks.

[brook]

I had that impression about the Septon too although I don't think it is made clear, also is it Corbray in the Vale that is implied to favour young boys?

The criticism of the lack of rape in the nights watch is valid though, I believe the closest we come is when one of the two psycho's in the cage threaten Arya with rape when they are all bound for the wall. We the readers know she is a girl but they do not.

[Lummel]

The night's watch is a brotherhood. There is no doubt many an expression of brotherly love, in a rugged and manly way. Certainly Garth seems to have got under Alf of Runnymeade's skin pretty quickly.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Many of the war rapes that occur in the books are revealed to the audience through second-hand reports. It's never directly represented to the reader. And of all the reports of war rapes, the victims are predominantly women. I think this echoes real life to an extent, because while reports of women being raped by soldiers are not uncommon, it's somewhat rare that reports of raped men surface. So I don't think that the use of rape in the series is completely unrealistic, although some of it does seem a bit far-fetched. And as other users have pointed out, there are cases of men being raped or sexually abused(Aeron might have been molested by Euron, the maester in Victarion's POV, Satin-although it's debatable whether he was raped or not). And since the series is based on medieval times, I highly doubt that there are many accounts of men being raped in the medieval era, as opposed to women being raped. I could be wrong though.

Wow, that's the most I've ever used the word 'rape' in a single post.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Also, I do think the whole 'prison rape' thing is exaggerated a bit. People often assume that if a person is sent to prison, he's going to get raped, and I don't really believe that. Although the author does raise a valid point about the lack of rape in the Night's Watch. But isn't there a brothel in one of the nearby towns? I always assumed the brothers of the NW went there to seek pleasure.

[Kolantero]

Regarding the Night's Watch: It may be a prison but there are plenty of prostitutes in Mole's Town so that "eliminates" many male-rapes happening in prisons because of "lack of women".

Also:

1) Unlike prison wardens, I imagine people like Commander Mormont and Dennis Malester (sp?) would be really pissed if their men were raping each other (probably Cotter Pyke as well but we don't know him that much)

2) Prisons don't actually have volunteers from nobility (and therefor much better trained) who could help maintain order

3) Furthermore we don't really see the entirety of the Night Watch. We basically see Castle Black which has Mormont as a commander and more specifically we see it almost exclusively through the eyes of Jon who is hanging out with the "good guys" like Grenn, Dolorous Edd and Pyp. I doubt that anyone would let Jon in if they were planning to rape someone and with his skill in combat i doubt that anyone would try that on him.

4) So since we see only a selected (through Jon) small fraction of the NW life its safe to say that there could be some rapes which we as readers wouldn't learn about so nothing unrealistic here. Perhaps things are different at Cotter Pyke's castle (forgot the name).

PS: As for the article itself, there are some males getting raped in the books and just like in real life (especially at times of war and in a society where might makes right) women are more often the victims.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Aeron Damphair may have been raped by Euron (cryptic allusions to rusty hinges), and Joffrey may have sexually abused Tommen.

[Castel]

Maybe I wasn't understanding it, but isn't Septon Utt supposed to be a pedophile? Or does he just kill the little boys?

Otherwise, I think really the only criticism I find valid is that of the Night's Watch. Like others have said, an all male essentially prison camp would probably have it's fair share of male rapes. Aside from that, I'm not sure where this person was expecting to see all these incidents of male rape? Prison and the military seem to be where most male rapes occur, but the only prisons we hear about don't have the common areas or shared cells that allow for rape in modern prisons. The military is also different, as everyone is sleeping out of doors, and not in barracks.

Except a lot of the rape can simply come from fucked up power dynamics. Which the nobles carry around them like a sort of force-field. You're too handsome for a serving boy? Well, tough shit for you, Lord Jon Whoever wants you and he'll cut out your tongue and send you to the Wall if you tell anyone or refuse him.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On the topic of Lollys, one of the more genuinely disturbing aspects of the book was that her horrible experience was (sort of) played for laughs. She's of below average intelligence and below average appearance, so somehow that gives Tyrion the right to be flippant about the whole thing.

[Castel]

On the topic of Lollys, one of the more genuinely disturbing aspects of the book was that her horrible experience was (sort of) played for laughs. She's of below average intelligence and below average appearance, so somehow that gives Tyrion the right to be flippant about the whole thing.

Was Tyrion flippant about the rape on top of his usual disdain for her? I remember Shae being terrible and Cersei going waaay overboard but I can't remember Tyrion himself saying anything about her rape.

[jurble]

The maester on Victarion's ship gets raped.

[danm_999]

Actually, I think there's plenty of male victim rape and sexual violence towards men in ASOIAF. Others have mentioned Maester Kerwin, Aeron, Septon Utt, the slave boys Victarion murders, Satin and Lyn Corbray's proclivities. The issue is that the narrative never telegraphs these incidents as 'rape' because it sort of can't.

For in the world of Westeros, rape is something that happens to a woman, not a man. I'm sure if you asked several Westerosi what they thought about a man being raped, the idea would baffle them. Even something as explicit as this can slip past;

Jaime grabbed the boy with his good hand and yanked him around. “I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you arrogant pup. Your commander, so long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.

Objectively, this is a very violent threat of rape/forced sodomy, alongside physical assault. But characters in the narrative cannot play this as a threat of rape. We just see it as Jaime being rather frustrated. If Loras were to complain Jaime threatened to rape him, he'd likely meet laughter and have his masculinity questioned. The idea of 'being raped' is gendered. Jump to the Maester Kerwin incident, where rape does occur unequivocally;

Not long after that Kerwin had come creeping to the captain to complain that four of the crew had dragged him belowdecks and used him as a woman.

I think the language is pretty important here. Kerwin wasn't raped, he was used as a woman. Because only women get raped. He was probably sodomised, as he couldn't literally be used as a woman, but the fact that violation has a gendered connotation is the issue.

It's a repulsive attitude we haven't fully abandoned even in the 21st century. To use the most germane example that springs to mind, one of the biggest blunders Robert Jordan ever made was trying to play Mat Cauthon's rape by Queen Tylin in A Crown of Swords for laughs.

Unlike the Kerwin incident, Randland is supposed to be an egalitarian society. Rand's forced bonding to an Aes Sedai is played as rape, but Mat's literal raping is not. It's greeted by laughs by characters who really should know better. Yet you don't have to look far on the internet to find defenders of the statement "Tylin didn't rape Mat", based on some truly horrific reasoning. If we as a society can't get our act together and cry foul, what hope do the Westerosi have?

I'm not trying to portray males in fiction or reality as overly victimised here, because they just aren't. I just really think when McDougall asks;

So where are they, all the raped male characters?

that the answer is that they're right in front of you. All that's actually missing is their label.

[Beorn Snow]

that the answer is that they're right in front of you. All that's actually missing is their label.

Yes, it´s quite scary. Even today talking about male-rape is much more stigmatized.