The Most Compelling Reason That Aegon Is Really Aegon

[Dolorous Nedd]

I know that many people on here think that Aegon is actually a fake, but there is one point that strongly argues in favor of him being real. At the end of ADWD Varys tells Kevan Lannister the truth about Aegon as Kevan is dying. Why would Varys lie to a man that's going to be dead in two minutes? It would seem the only real possibility that Aegon is fake is if Varys is wrong. It would be quite a feat to pull the wool over the eyes of Varys!

[thecryptile]

Maybe Varys was lying for the sake of his "little birds".

[Mladen]

Why would Varys do anything? You always forget that they weren`t alone there.

And if this is the most compelling proof, then I am even more convinced that he`s fake.

Also I recommend some of dozen threads on this subject...

[Dr. Pepper]

I know that many people on here think that Aegon is actually a fake, but there is one point that strongly argues in favor of him being real. At the end of ADWD Varys tells Kevan Lannister the truth about Aegon as Kevan is dying. Why would Varys lie to a man that's going to be dead in two minutes? It would seem the only real possibility that Aegon is fake is if Varys is wrong. It would be quite a feat to pull the wool over the eyes of Varys!

Why would Varys tell a dying man anything? Who else was in the room or could have been listening?

Varys always says the truth in a twisted way, where he leads us to think one thing when it's actually something else. For example, he told Ned exactly who was behind Jon Arryn's murder. Paraphrasing but something along the lines of "a young man Jon brought to court, a person that owes everything to Jon". We and Ned assume that it's someone who was brought recently and so go with Ser Hugh, but it turns out that it was someone else that Jon helped - Littlefinger. Varys didn't lie, only allowed Ned and us readers to believe one thing when it was really the other.

In the room where Kevan died, Varys didn't say that Aegon was the son of Rhaegar. He just said Aegon and, like he always does, did not correct Kevan or even fully agree with Kevan when he assumed it was Aegon son of Rhaegar.

As for pulling the wool over Varys' eyes, it's happened before. Varys was not ready for Ned to be beheaded. He seemed pretty surprised that someone had convinced Joffrey to do it. Varys isn't omnipotent.

[Dolorous Nedd]

Maybe Varys was lying for the sake of his "little birds".

It's funny that I thought of this JUST before I read your reply. Strange it didn't dawn on me sooner since I have been thinking about this point for quite a while. On the other hand it seems that Kevan was an honorable enough man to deserve to be told the truth as he was dying.

[Hodor knows]

I know that many people on here think that Aegon is actually a fake, but there is one point that strongly argues in favor of him being real. At the end of ADWD Varys tells Kevan Lannister the truth about Aegon as Kevan is dying. Why would Varys lie to a man that's going to be dead in two minutes? It would seem the only real possibility that Aegon is fake is if Varys is wrong. It would be quite a feat to pull the wool over the eyes of Varys!

Maybe Varys considered that there might be others listening.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

To be honest, whether or not Aegon is a real Targ or a Blackfyre farce for sure remains to be seen, and I won't swear by anything until GRRM puts it on the page, but to be completely honest I want Aegon to be real. Dany is already poised to think Aegon is a fake because of the whole "mummers dragon" remark by Quaithe, but for all we know the "mummer" part could just be referring to the involvement of Varys. How darkly ironic would it be with Dany killed her own cousin without even realizing it?

Maybe just because I'm a fan of the whole "Dany is becoming a villain" angle this appeals to me, but I think it'd be a nice way to go.

[thewingedwolf]

Why would Varys do anything? You always forget that they weren`t alone there.

And if this is the most compelling proof, then I am even more convinced that he`s fake.

Also I recommend some of dozen threads on this subject...

Here is a more pressing question for you. What is fake and what is real? Where did the concept of "real" and "fake" go when Robert Baratheon took the throne. If anything what that proved was that claim or "real" means nothing and that one's ability to take the throne by force is what ultimately determines "claim". After all let's not forget, Aegon had no claim, he took the throne by force, and so did Robert so why can't Aegon?

[Dr. Pepper]

Here is a more pressing question for you. What is fake and what is real? Where did the concept of "real" and "fake" go when Robert Baratheon took the throne. If anything what that proved was that claim or "real" means nothing and that one's ability to take the throne by force is what ultimately determines "claim". After all let's not forget, Aegon had no claim, he took the throne by force, and so did Robert so why can't Aegon?

I don't think that's actually the point being argued. The argument is whether or not Aegon is son of Rhaegar or son of whomever. If he is not son of Rhaegar but passing himself off as such, he's a fake and the determination becomes how we figure out that he's a fraud and why certain characters would be invested in passing off a fraud when it comes to the throne. We already know that blood claim is pretty useless when it comes to the throne, so the question is why would someone want to use a blood claim to get fAegon on the throne?

[thewingedwolf]

I don't think that's actually the point being argued. The argument is whether or not Aegon is son of Rhaegar or son of whomever. If he is not son of Rhaegar but passing himself off as such, he's a fake and the determination becomes how we figure out that he's a fraud and why certain characters would be invested in passing off a fraud when it comes to the throne. We already know that blood claim is pretty useless when it comes to the throne, so the question is why would someone want to use a blood claim to get fAegon on the throne?

Perhaps I dd not argue my point as clearly as i wanted to (and I blame wine for that). But the point I was trying to make is that the truth about Aegon is irrelevant. What matters is what people believe. If the lords of Westeros believe he is the son of Rhaegar and the rightful then, in the end, that is all that will matter and Aegon will be king. Perception is reality.

[thecryptile]

(...)the point I was trying to make is that the truth about Aegon is irrelevant. What matters is what people believe. If the lords of Westeros believe he is the son of Rhaegar and the rightful then, in the end, that is all that will matter and Aegon will be king. Perception is reality.

Agreed, also Aegon thinks he's a Targ. So he will act like a Targ. From a plot perspective, I don't think it matters if Aegon is "real" or not. It's not like they can do a DNA paternity test, so it's all a matter of perception.

[Dr. Pepper]

Perhaps I dd not argue my point as clearly as i wanted to (and I blame wine for that). But the point I was trying to make is that the truth about Aegon is irrelevant. What matters is what people believe. If the lords of Westeros believe he is the son of Rhaegar and the rightful then, in the end, that is all that will matter and Aegon will be king. Perception is reality.

I agree that perception and desire will be reality. I think it's more likely that they will flock to him because they don't care to fight, they don't like who is already governing them or they want revenge or something similar. Whoever Aegon says he descends from will matter little though that will likely be a point used to rally people.

However, I do think Aegon's true identity is relevant and important. If he is not the son of Rhaegar, then who is he and why do Illyrio and Varys want him on the throne? How does his true identity connect with the rest of the story? I don't see fAegon existing in his own bubble, in a story all on it's own. All of the sub-plots are connected in some way, and as a reader, I want to know how. I don't think this is just a series about political intrigue and an Iron Throne in Westeros. I think there's a lot more to the story than that. It's boring to me to not consider the hows and whys.

[Mladen]

Here is a more pressing question for you. What is fake and what is real? Where did the concept of "real" and "fake" go when Robert Baratheon took the throne. If anything what that proved was that claim or "real" means nothing and that one's ability to take the throne by force is what ultimately determines "claim". After all let's not forget, Aegon had no claim, he took the throne by force, and so did Robert so why can't Aegon?

Power is all that matters. Not blood, not claims, power. Aegon proved that, Robert too, then Tywin, and at the end whoever wins will too. It doesn`t matter whether he has some claim or not, for we discuss Aegon`s identity here, not his claim.

[Tommens Cat]

Black or Red, a dragon is a dragon.

[thewingedwolf]

I agree that perception and desire will be reality. I think it's more likely that they will flock to him because they don't care to fight, they don't like who is already governing them or they want revenge or something similar. Whoever Aegon says he descends from will matter little though that will likely be a point used to rally people.

However, I do think Aegon's true identity is relevant and important. If he is not the son of Rhaegar, then who is he and why do Illyrio and Varys want him on the throne? How does his true identity connect with the rest of the story? I don't see fAegon existing in his own bubble, in a story all on it's own. All of the sub-plots are connected in some way, and as a reader, I want to know how. I don't think this is just a series about political intrigue and an Iron Throne in Westeros. I think there's a lot more to the story than that. It's boring to me to not consider the hows and whys.

First off, let me admit that, I like Aegon so my opinion may be biased now perhaps what I will say best belongs in another thread but doesn't the description Varys gives Kevan right before he kills him sound like someone who is fit to rule. Now naturally I would not beliebe that but Varys, weidly enough has not lied when put in situations like this.

I guess my point is, perhaps he is a blackfyre but even if he is, Daeron Blakfyre still seemed more honorable than all the Targs who followed him. That being said, as I mentioned earlier, I lie Aegon so I may be strongly biased and drunk.

[thewingedwolf]

Power is all that matters. Not blood, not claims, power. Aegon proved that, Robert too, then Tywin, and at the end whoever wins will too. It doesn`t matter whether he has some claim or not, for we discuss Aegon`s identity here, not his claim.

Then I am sorry, please disregard my posts then.

[Dr. Pepper]

First off, let me admit that, I like Aegon so my opinion may be biased now perhaps what I will say best belongs in another thread but doesn't the description Varys gives Kevan right before he kills him sound like someone who is fit to rule. Now naturally I would not beliebe that but Varys, weidly enough has not lied when put in situations like this.

I guess my point is, perhaps he is a blackfyre but even if he is, Daeron Blakfyre still seemed more honorable than all the Targs who followed him. That being said, as I mentioned earlier, I lie Aegon so I may be strongly biased and drunk.

I don't think it matters whether or not one likes Aegon or the Blackfyres or whatever. As mentioned above, red or black a dragon is still a dragon. I also don't think it matters whether previous Blackfyre's were honorable or not considering there are Targs that were honorable and Targs that weren't. Just as there were Starks who were and Starks who weren't.

I don't think Varys lied. The Aegon we see was raised to be a king without being raised as a king. He didn't grow up in a castle with great wealth. We met him on a small boat with few luxuries. As far as we know, Varys has been in King's Landing for all of YG's life, so whatever he knows about YG has been passed down by someone else.

Still, this doesn't tell us YG's true identity and it doesn't tell us why someone(s) spent nearly a decade molding this child to take the throne in Westeros. Why does Illyrio care? Why did Illyrio feign aid to Dany and Viserys when he had a boy calling himself Aegon son of Rhaegar all this time? Why does Varys care? Why were Varys and Illyrio working together. There are too many unanswered questions when Aegon is just assumed to be son of Rhaegar.

[Yukle]

OMG! Littlefinger maintains the ruse that Sansa is his daughter in when they are in private! Sansa is actually Alayne!

[Woman of War]

You are right, Mladen.

Hoe does it serve Varys or Illyrio to have that specific boy on the throne? What is their link to him? Is he just some kid they found and brought up making the boy and some others believe that he is a prince's son?

Or does one of the two in the conspiracy have a special link to the boy? Is he Illyrio's son by his dead wife? Did the wife have to die because she did not want to give up her child for some political purpose? Those woman's hands in the jar at Illyrio's are hardly a loving memory but rather a the sign of a twisted cruel mind.

Do the two intend to ever reveal the truth to the boy in order to make him willingly follow their advice out of being thankful? Haha, Aegon, fake or not, is a proud overconfident sweet and careless boy who is very erratic in taking any advice despite his careful education.

And - how can we know that Varys and Illyrio are into one and the same conspiracy? I'd imagine that Varys' plans are far more sophisticated than Illyrio's and that Varys may have played Illyrio for a long time (tainted by my fascination by the character Varys).

[thewingedwolf]

Still, this doesn't tell us YG's true identity and it doesn't tell us why someone(s) spent nearly a decade molding this child to take the throne in Westeros. Why does Illyrio care? Why did Illyrio feign aid to Dany and Viserys when he had a boy calling himself Aegon son of Rhaegar all this time? Why does Varys care? Why were Varys and Illyrio working together. There are too many unanswered questions when Aegon is just assumed to be son of Rhaegar.

You are probably right. As I said I like Aegon which biases my judgement.