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Show us that Aegon VI is really Aegon


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#1 Apple Martini

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:49 AM

Title says it all.

Ever since ADWD came out, the onus for discussion has always been on the "fake Aegon" crowd to argue its case. "Why is Aegon fake?" "Show me how Aegon is fake." "I don't understand why people think Aegon is fake."

So now I'm turning the tables, to make a point. The "fake Aegon" crowd has accumulated a fairly large body of evidence — logic, symbols, themes, backstory, etc. — in support of its argument. Because the burden has always been on them, the "Aegon is real" crowd has, in my opinion, gotten away with what the "fake Aegon" crowd hasn't — not really ever having to argue its theory from a defensive standpoint.

So, that changes right now. "Real Aegon" readers, let's have it. Why is Young Griff the real deal?

#2 Sordelor

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 10:56 AM

I think he is fake but I'll pretend I think he is real now.

Jon Connington thinks he is. Varys said it to the dying Kevan. Tyrion's reveal of who Aegon was would be idiotic if he wouldn't be the real Aegon (Martin would never humilieate his favorite character).

Edited by Somebody, 14 September 2013 - 10:58 AM.


#3 Facebookless Man

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:00 AM

Look up "burden of proof".

Edit: sorry, you acknowledged that already. Well, not much else to say then.

Edited by Facebookless Man, 14 September 2013 - 11:02 AM.


#4 Se˝or de la Tormenta

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:01 AM

Here is a small point (Im pro fake aegon theory anyway)
Martin says he got a lot from Maurice Druons " le rois maudits ". The baby prince switching happens there, saving little Joan I from mourder by making a switch with an other baby who ends up killed insted.

#5 Mladen

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:01 AM

But, he says so... Any skepticism in reading should be prohibited, or people would come up with this insane stories like Jon not being fisherman's daughter's son, or that somehow Daenerys is not fireproof, immune to all diseases... Everything that is said in ASOIAF should be taken for serious, for there is no way that people are misinformed, or God forbid, that they are lying. I mean, how can't we trust the sixteen year old boy in his claims that he is who he claims he is?

On a serious note, I, shamefully admit I didn't catch Aegon's legitimacy until my rereading (and I also wanted Sansa to be his Queen, can you imagine that stupidity? /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />), but now I am convinced he is fake. But, to play devil's advocate:

1. Varys' conversation with Kevan... I am not arguing pro, just presenting possible arguments
2. Varys used singular in his conversation with Tyrion in ACoK:

“The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe.


3. Given powerful foreshadowing about Dance of dragons 2.0, Dance actually happened between two Targaryens long before Blackfyres came to existence.

There is nothing more, that I am aware of, beside almighty words of a boy, and eunuch who is known for telling the truth... Again, just for fun, I played the devil's advocate, I don't believe in any of the arguments I presented...

#6 Apple Martini

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:02 AM

Look up "burden of proof".


I know the burden typically rests on the challenger, which is the "fake Aegon" crowd. However, that doesn't change the fact that even in the story, where people lie, there's no silver bullet showing his veracity.

#7 Crowford

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:08 AM

Well, that hostile tone of writing in the OP could have been avoided, but anyway:

What has been mentioned before, and also: Because Aegon being alive already was a big reveal in itself, since there have been only very sparse hints up until ADwD. Obviously that theory existed, but EVERYTHING that's not explicitely disproven will spawn a theory in forums like that. I personally didn't think Aegon was alive until the reveal, since it reeked of the cliche of the "rightful ruler's" long lost son.

Now piling another reveal on top of that is just lazy storytelling.

And, no, I wouldn't really say that I am in any kind of "group" regarding this.

Edited by Crowford, 14 September 2013 - 11:09 AM.


#8 Consigliere

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:09 AM

I think he is as fake as they come but for argument sake, he's real because:

1. JC says so
2. Varys said so and he has no reason to lie to a dying man
3. Aegon is hiding his Targ identity posing as YG. This in essence makes him a "secret Targ". As we all know secret Targs are immune to disease and the fact the Aegon did not contract Greyscale in The Sorrows proves he is a Targaryen.

#9 Mountain Tribesman

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:11 AM

While I freely admit that we can't be 100% certain, I do believe Aegon is the real Aegon.

1) Varys would have known, since he was obviously in the know regarding the fate of the Targaryens during and since Robert's Rebellion. And yes, Varys does lie... but why would he lie to Kevan right before killing him? He had no secrets to hide from a man about to die.

2) Jon Connington is a loyal friend of Rhaegar's, and in this sense seeks to redeem himself of his failure during Robert's Rebellion by helping Aegon much like Barristan is doing by helping Dany. I just don't see him as the sort of guy who'd make up a fake Aegon just to gain partial power, especially as, having greyscale, he's doomed.

3) Rhaegar was no fool. His description suggests a brilliant and valiant man who was nonetheless convinced that his own destiny woud end in tragedy, as it did. But knowing that, he logically sought to protect his child from his own fate, by sending him to Essos with Jon.

#10 Facebookless Man

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:12 AM

Because it would be bad writing. As much as some people here want the books to be a game of outwit-the-author, feeding your readers false information on everything just so that you can pull two plot twists every chapter of the last book is just incredibly lame.
Absolutely nothing about the way false beliefs, revelations and foreshadowing has been handled so far by GRRM suggests that he's actually playing that game. Thank god too.

Edited by Facebookless Man, 14 September 2013 - 11:13 AM.


#11 Bronn Urgundy

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

Surely the burden of proof rests on those backing Aegon as legit? I mean, a baby's head was dashed against a wall, a few people saw the remains, even though he wasn't identifiable its still more believable that that was Aegon as opposed to some random kid with vague Valyrian features going "hey guys, it was me all along!"

EDIT - Think I just parroted everyone else with the above.

Varys could've lied to Kevan because he doesnt want his little birds to know Aegon is a fake, if one gets captured and talks the game is up.

I think he's probably real though, just to throw a spanner in the works for Danearys after everything.

Edited by Bronn Urgandy, 14 September 2013 - 11:24 AM.


#12 Mladen

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

3) Rhaegar was no fool. His description suggests a brilliant and valiant man who was nonetheless convinced that his own destiny woud end in tragedy, as it did. But knowing that, he logically sought to protect his child from his own fate, by sending him to Essos with Jon.


Jon first time met the boy when he was five... So, this argument is flawed...

#13 Facebookless Man

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:14 AM

If all Varys wants is to put a random stooge of his on the throne, the way he's going about it is the most longwinded, dangerous, and likely to fail or backfire he could think of.

Edited by Facebookless Man, 14 September 2013 - 11:15 AM.


#14 Apple Martini

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:16 AM

Because it would be bad writing. As much as some people here want the books to be a game of outwit-the-author, feeding your readers false information on everything just so that you can pull two plot twists every chapter of the last book is just incredibly lame.
Absolutely nothing about the way false beliefs, revelations and foreshadowing has been handled so far by GRRM suggests that he's actually playing that game. Thank god too.


But that's what he does — he regularly presents information that isn't true and expects readers to figure out what really happened for themselves. Unless you think Davos is really dead, the Lannisters really did kill Jon Arryn and Jon Snow is somehow simultaneously the son of Wylla, Ashara and a fisherman's daughter.

As for "bad writing," I'd say that bad writing involves setting up, say, a sellsword company that was founded to put a Blackfyre on the throne and is based on a hatred of Targaryens and that never breaks a contract ... breaking a contract to put a real Targaryen on the throne. That is "bad writing."

Edited by Apple Martini, 14 September 2013 - 11:20 AM.


#15 Apple Martini

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:16 AM

If all Varys wants is to put a random stooge of his on the throne, the way he's going about it is the most longwinded, dangerous, and likely to fail or backfire he could think of.


It's not a "random stooge," it's a Blackfyre. There's nothing random about it.

#16 Apple Martini

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:19 AM

While I freely admit that we can't be 100% certain, I do believe Aegon is the real Aegon.

1) Varys would have known, since he was obviously in the know regarding the fate of the Targaryens during and since Robert's Rebellion. And yes, Varys does lie... but why would he lie to Kevan right before killing him? He had no secrets to hide from a man about to die.


Varys doesn't exactly lie; he just lets Kevan make the wrong assumption. He also has no reason to say anything to Kevan, truth or lies.

2) Jon Connington is a loyal friend of Rhaegar's, and in this sense seeks to redeem himself of his failure during Robert's Rebellion by helping Aegon much like Barristan is doing by helping Dany. I just don't see him as the sort of guy who'd make up a fake Aegon just to gain partial power, especially as, having greyscale, he's doomed.


Jon Connington is a pawn in this, not a player.

3) Rhaegar was no fool. His description suggests a brilliant and valiant man who was nonetheless convinced that his own destiny woud end in tragedy, as it did. But knowing that, he logically sought to protect his child from his own fate, by sending him to Essos with Jon.


Timeline doesn't fit. Jon didn't meet this kid until he was already a few years old. And nothing suggests Rhaegar trusted Varys (I'd say he didn't), much less that they'd work together on this.

#17 theguyfromtheVale

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:20 AM

It's not a "random stooge," it's a Blackfyre. There's nothing random about it.


I would like to add that fAegon might also very well be Varys' nephew. Not random at all, from Varys' perspective.

#18 Lady of the waters

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:22 AM

There isn't enough evidence supporting he is real IMO

The only thing you could argue is Varys saying it to Kevan but its still not enough, also JonCon and fAegon totally think he's real

#19 Sigur­ur Ingi

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:23 AM

My feeling is that Aegon may not be true Aegon but still I think he could be true targaryen through the line of Aerion brightflame since his only son lived and could have possibility had d.escentants, Aeogon being one of them.

#20 butterbumps!

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 11:24 AM

So, that changes right now. "Real Aegon" readers, let's have it. Why is Young Griff the real deal?


1. baby swaps are the new black
2. A mother wouldn't recognize a pisswater alley substitute in lieu of her own baby
3. Gregor was in on it because Rhaeger anointed him
4. The "mummer's dragon" = Dany, or simply refers to "Varys' Dragon" if Aegon is still the referent
5. Aegon dyes his hair because blond hair= Targ, and only Targs have the purple/ blond combo

I'm trying to recall some of the arguments from that amazing thread last summer about this-- the one that went on for like 30 pages-- you know which one I'm talking about. The fact that Queen Alysanne had blue eyes meant she was a bastard, and this revelation was used in support of why Aegon, who doesn't have blue eyes, means that he's not a bastard and a true Targ. So I guess the argument that Queen Alysanne= a bastard should be on that list.