The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

hullo,

I'm doing a Jon re read at the mo so decided to check out the thread. Well Its very interesting. Anyway I wondered if anyone here might be interested in reading my essays on Jon & Ygrittes relationship which I wrote for the rethinking romance thread. You may like them, you may think I'm an imbecile. But I'd be interested in your opinions as reading this thread which deals in large so far with those same Jon chapters that I looked at for the essays has been intriguing and caused me to think over the conclusions I came to.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/93822-rethinking-romance-love-stories-of-asoiaf/page-15#entry5058220

[XSarellaX]

Comparing Jon/Ygritte and Rhaegar/Lyanna... I think they relationship might have developed in a similar way. Rhaegar starts it for a higher reason, but ends up falling in love. I can see him swearing to himself that after she got pregnant, he would leave the ToJ to deal with RR, go back to Elia... and then he stays for an extra month.... maybe two... or three....

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Comparing Jon/Ygritte and Rhaegar/Lyanna... I think they relationship might have developed in a similar way. Rhaegar starts it for a higher reason, but ends up falling in love. I can see him swearing to himself that after she got pregnant, he would leave the ToJ to deal with RR, go back to Elia... and then he stays for an extra month.... maybe two... or three....

I can see it happening that way. And since we will probably never get details about it, I think GRRM is inviting us to see it that way by using the Jon/Ygritte parallel.

Is this thread dying? Or did our reread team just get rudely interrupted by real life? I hope it keeps going, at least until the end of aSoS. (I can see where things might start to duplicate the Learning to Lead reread once we hit aDwD.)

[Lummel]

...Is this thread dying? Or did our reread team just get rudely interrupted by real life? I hope it keeps going, at least until the end of aSoS. (I can see where things might start to duplicate the Learning to Lead reread once we hit aDwD.)

Butterbumps! Has been hit and is alleged to be reeling from an American holiday related disturbance, possibly involving weird new world foodstuffs piled on tables. But once she posts my post will be up the following week so hopefully we'll be able to move back on track until the next derailment ;)

[Lummel]

hullo,

I'm doing a Jon re read at the mo so decided to check out the thread. Well Its very interesting. Anyway I wondered if anyone here might be interested in reading my essays on Jon & Ygrittes relationship which I wrote for the rethinking romance thread. You may like them, you may think I'm an imbecile. But I'd be interested in your opinions as reading this thread which deals in large so far with those same Jon chapters that I looked at for the essays has been intriguing and caused me to think over the conclusions I came to.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/93822-rethinking-romance-love-stories-of-asoiaf/page-15#entry5058220

Wow! You have so much to say!

We don't give out imbecile certificates in this thread, so don't worry. It is interesting to see that you have a different take on things. I think I would be inclined to compare Jon and Ygritte with Gilly and Sam. I feel that Jon and Ygritte is impossible to an extent because of how Jon views his oath - he would either have to abandon it or break with Ygritte. What we see is that Ygritte has to die, I feel the other alternative would have been for Jon to 'kill' his oath. We'll have to see if Sam and Gilly manage to achieve a compromise, or a baby, or reach a similar crisis in Oldtown.

Rhaegar and Lyanna I think is different to Jon and Ygritte, Rhaegar seems happy to keep Lyanna on the side, the relationship doesn't - at least not at that point- oblige him to chose between the crown and the woman. Apparently he could enjoy the prospect of both. Jon doesn't have such an easy situation. He has to make a choice and in a sense that is a choice between Winterfell, his upbringing, the values he honours and on the other hand the woman he loves. He is put by GRRM in to a situation he which he will loose and he will suffer.

I'd be interested to hear how your views are developing on Jon and Ygritte. :)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Butterbumps! Has been hit and is alleged to be reeling from an American holiday related disturbance, possibly involving weird new world foodstuffs piled on tables. But once she posts my post will be up the following week so hopefully we'll be able to move back on track until the next derailment ;)

Just how big of a party did Butterbumps! throw to celebrate the 80th anniversary of Repeal of Prohibition?

Rhaegar and Lyanna I think is different to Jon and Ygritte, Rhaegar seems happy to keep Lyanna on the side, the relationship doesn't - at least not at that point- oblige him to chose between the crown and the woman. Apparently he could enjoy the prospect of both. Jon doesn't have such an easy situation. He has to make a choice and in a sense that is a choice between Winterfell, his upbringing, the values he honours and on the other hand the woman he loves. He is put by GRRM in to a situation he which he will loose and he will suffer.

Yeah. There's some similarity in the basic plot, but Rhaegar's conflict is with external forces, while Jon's is internal, with himself.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Jon's wound did not, of course, affect his sexual functionality, and his refusals are based on his commitment to his vows and his unwillingness to father bastards. The symbolism, though, is still present. Jon has always carried a "wound" due to his bastardy. Joining the Night's Watch is a form of self-emasculation, a self-inflicted wound. After straying from his vows, he gets a real wound that (symbolically) reinforces the others. He accepts the loss of that part of his life, but acceptance doesn't make him whole.

I don't seem to be able to reach any profound conclusion here.

Beautifully put! The bolded part made my eyes tear up.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Beautifully put! The bolded part made my eyes tear up.

A first for anything I ever wrote. Thanks! I assure you that wasn't my intent. Maybe I was chopping onions at the time.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Wow! You have so much to say!

We don't give out imbecile certificates in this thread, so don't worry. It is interesting to see that you have a different take on things. I think I would be inclined to compare Jon and Ygritte with Gilly and Sam. I feel that Jon and Ygritte is impossible to an extent because of how Jon views his oath - he would either have to abandon it or break with Ygritte. What we see is that Ygritte has to die, I feel the other alternative would have been for Jon to 'kill' his oath. We'll have to see if Sam and Gilly manage to achieve a compromise, or a baby, or reach a similar crisis in Oldtown.

Rhaegar and Lyanna I think is different to Jon and Ygritte, Rhaegar seems happy to keep Lyanna on the side, the relationship doesn't - at least not at that point- oblige him to chose between the crown and the woman. Apparently he could enjoy the prospect of both. Jon doesn't have such an easy situation. He has to make a choice and in a sense that is a choice between Winterfell, his upbringing, the values he honours and on the other hand the woman he loves. He is put by GRRM in to a situation he which he will loose and he will suffer.

I'd be interested to hear how your views are developing on Jon and Ygritte. :)

I know I honestly felt embaressed when I wrote it and realised just how huge it was!

But try as I might I could not cut it down. Its rather badly edited though as I was in a major rush to post it before I became computer-less for a few weeks. Ought really go back in and neaten it up rectify spelling etc.

I agree Ygrite had to die, Jon needed to return to CB and fulfil his role as leader for the upcoming battle, his story ark is about learning to lead not learning to love. Though Love is an important factor in ASOIAF and is important to Jon too. Its his leadership which I feel is his role in the tale.

Ygrite is a facilitator to his learning about Wildlings, their humanity their culture, his own religion.

After all, after his time with the Wildlings they cease to be "his fathers gods" and become his own. By the time he's LC of the watch he very much identifies himself as being an Old Gods follower, he can not burn the Godswood to attain winterfell, as the Heart tree IS Winterfell.

Seeing first hand the old ways, learning more about the history of the North, the first men, the Old Gods. These all influence his decision to admit the Wildlings past the wall, his love for Ygrite and the people he meets North of the wall and the knowledge that they would all become wights are the factors which play into his realisation that protecting the realms of men means protecting the Wildlings from the WW's.

I feel his relationship enables him to do all of this, and also to humanise Neds actions or the actions he has been led to believe led to his birth. He seems a lot more sympathetic to his fathers position and less angry with his base beginnings after he's known a woman. He's still royally screwed up about it for sure. but he questions what he feels about it and I think forgives Ned a little.

Please elaborate on how their relationship is similar to Sam & Gilly? as other than them both being NW brothers who can not feasibly return to their posts with a lover in tow I don't s it. I'd like to understand more? Thanks :)

In fact I may suggest a Sam & Gilly essay for the rethinking romance thread as I have never really considered the role of their romance in the story, where as Jon & Ygrite clearly has a narrative purpose.

All very interesting isn't it.

[Lummel]

...his story ark is about learning to lead not learning to love. Though Love is an important factor in ASOIAF and is important to Jon too. Its his leadership which I feel is his role in the tale.

Ygrite is a facilitator to his learning about Wildlings, their humanity their culture, his own religion.

After all, after his time with the Wildlings they cease to be "his fathers gods" and become his own. By the time he's LC of the watch he very much identifies himself as being an Old Gods follower, he can not burn the Godswood to attain winterfell, as the Heart tree IS Winterfell...

Please elaborate on how their relationship is similar to Sam & Gilly? as other than them both being NW brothers who can not feasibly return to their posts with a lover in tow I don't s it. I'd like to understand more? ...

Are this point about his father's gods and becoming his own! Me and Ragnorak have been discussing that too. It might be worth while listing out the how and when he uses those phases, my impression is that we're in a transition phase were he uses both for a while, but I do think there an element of feeling that those gods are his own maybe because of being with the wildlings but also because of what he has experienced, particularly the mystical/religious/transcendent/weird stuff like his wolf dream, like Bran's intervention, like some of his other dreams - Ygritte in the Winterfell pool and the Winterfell crypt dream that is upcoming in my next Jon chapter.

I do like the 'learning to love' phase you have. It struck me reading that just how big a role love has for Jon in his arc, love for Winterfell, love for the Stark family, love for Sam, Ygritte, some other friends too mayhaps. I was flicking ahead to Samwell IV and noticed the descriptions of Jon's face from Sam's POV - it's all about feeling - smiles sad and tired, weariness. There's this awareness of Jon's emotional state - the man of feeling - that is a bit hidden or not stressed directly in Jon's own POV.

I think we can probably take both, learning to lead and learning to love, crunch them together and say that Jon's arc is Bildungsroman - this is Jon becoming an adult. We start with the aloof, superior boy, chip on his shoulder, looking to Father figures for leadership and end up in ADWD with this passionate, capable figure with a frosty exterior?

There's a strong similarity with Daenerys, in that they are both people with very strong emotions, but the one has accepted the burden of keeping the world as it is while the other seeks to change it.

Sam and Gilly, I've probably lost my train of thought on them, but doesn't Sam seek to integrate Gilly into his family life in a way that Jon doesn't? For Jon it is Ygritte versus, well, the whole social system of Westeros, he can't have her without breaking his oath. But Sam is looking out for Gilly, thinking about claiming her child as as his bastard (presumably encouraged by his impression of Jon?), working her into his life, thinking about what to do with her when he's at the citadel. I agree there is still the same conflict, sharing a bed with Gilly and keeping his new brothers is just a dream but maybe its possible for him to have a second best solution in which both get to live and love if not be together that isn't possible for Jon and Ygritte?

Sam and Gilly I've thought is quite romantic - you've got these two people with very damaging family lives who build a loving relationship between them. It's usually hopeful by ASOIAF standards :laugh:

[butterbumps!]

Many apologies for the delay. As Lum mentioned, I got extremely behind due to workload that followed a holiday I was out of town for. I’m really sorry guys—thanks for being patient.

intermediary chapters (between Jon VI-VII)

Of the 6 chapters between Jon VI and VII, 4 depict the Red Wedding in real time (Cat VI + VII, Arya X + XI), while Tyrion VI pertains to the reaction to it at King’s Landing.

In terms of continuity, Jon was just confronted by a summary of important betrayals in his previous chapter (mutiny at Craster’s, Theon’s taking Winterfell and killing Bran and Rickon), while struggling with his own betrayal of the wildlings, which was in turn predicated by a ruse in which he feigned betrayal to the Watch. We get this summation of compounded betrayals in the North and are immediately launched into the climax of the Red Wedding, generally regarded as the most poignant betrayals of the series. The betrayals continue into Tyrion VI, as Tywin reveals his part in the RW, and lays out his Northern restructuring plan, involving a future betrayal of the Boltons, who had become recent allies.

Aside from the thematic continuity, there’s some material in these chapters that I think is important for Jon’s arc, but won’t bear fruit until DwD and beyond, so I don’t want to get too sidetracked with the details at this stage. I just want to point out that the Cat and Tyrion chapters contain some critical Bolton information and Northern politics generally, including who was killed at the RW and which troops were spared, some hints Roose may have been behind the Winterfell sack, intra-Bolton dynamics, and so forth. I think it might be better to come back to this when we enter DwD, as it doesn’t quite intersect with Jon yet.

One development that does deserve mention here is Tywin’s Northern restructuring plan. During Tywin’s reveal of the dynamics of the Red Wedding, he outlines his strategy to install House Lannister in the North. He’s awarded Roose the position of Warden of the North for his role in the RW, and additionally, LF has found Arya Stark to further cement Bolton ties to Winterfell through marriage to his recently legitimized bastard son. Of course, “Arya Stark” is actually a highly abused Jeyne Poole, but even without that reveal, it’s clear Tywin’s supposed gifts are poisoned. Tywin intends for the Boltons to flush out the Ironborn, anticipating that both will suffer heavy losses in the struggle. With the North weakened by this conflict and winter, he plans for Tyrion to stake his claim of Winterfell with Sansa’s child in the spring, effectively double-crossing his newfound Bolton allies.

And, of course, the notion of “Arya Stark” in Bolton clutches will have tremendous ramification for Jon later.

The final chapter before Jon VII is Davos V, which has some very immediate intersections with Jon’s arc. Stannis’ council is extremely restless over the question of burning Edric as a sacrifice in order to gain a dragon, with the understanding that this would swing the war in Stannis’ favor. News of the RW has reached them, so with the second king dead, Mel’s pleas to burn the boy have a bit more weight. However, after Davos’ intercession, they decide to postpone the burning to see if Joffrey dies to make the leech success rate 3 for 3.

Meanwhile, Davos has been learning to read, and Pylos hands him a letter from Castle Black as practice (I omitted the hesitations):

To the five kings:

The king beyond the Wall comes south. He leads a vast host of wildlings. Lord Mormont sent a raven from the haunted forest. He is under attack. Other birds have come since, with no words. We fear Mormont slain with all his strength…

We learn that Pylos had shown the letter to Alester when it had first arrived, and that it had never found its way to Stannis; I don’t think Pylos handed Davos this letter by random chance, that is, I think this was Pylos’ subtle way of getting a troubling message to the king given the ensuing dialogue.

Also interesting for our purposes are Davos’ reflections on the Wall and wildlings, which he recalls from his early days as a smuggler. We learn that the wildlings are avid importers of weaponry, and that their main exports include furs, ivory, amber, and obsidian (I think the obsidian is quite noteworthy, as it means this material is widely available up North).

Further, it seems that Davos shares Jon’s sympathy for the wildlings, in that both see the wildlings as men, no different from any other group: “They were fair thieves but bad hagglers. One made off with our cabin girl. All in all, they seemed men like any other men, some fair, some foul.” Jon will express these exact sentiments in DwD.

As we know, Davos will bring the letter to Stannis’ attention and convince him to aid the Watch. Without spending too much time on Davos’ character itself, I think the way he processes how to handle the letter is rather telling. Though he’s not convinced Stannis should intercede from a political angle, he connects Mel’s previous vision of slaughter amongst the ring of torches to the Watch, and is haunted by the possibility that Mel’s warnings of a supernatural war is falling into place. He’s troubled by both the manifestation of her war of darkness, as well as the intensification of his moral dilemma of burning Edric as a means of saving humanity.

As a final note, I think it’s noteworthy that Davos and Jon have aligned attitudes toward the wildlings, as well as similar views toward Mel and her sorcery, as Davos’ thoughts here portend Jon’s in DwD. Both men understand that she has real power, and don’t dismiss her as a fraud, but neither can bring themselves to trust her as a supposed ally.

[butterbumps!]

Jon VII

overview

This chapter takes place almost entirely from atop the King’s Tower, where Jon (still extremely weakened by injury), Satin and Deaf Dick are positioned for the Magnar’s attack from the south. The chapter neatly divides into 3 parts: anticipation, battle, and aftermath, in which Jon stumbles out of the tower to find a dying Ygritte.

observations

• It’s been 6 months from the start of the ranging—Satin arrives in aCoK, Jon I, just before they leave, and we’re told he’s been training for “half a year.”
• Just as Arya convinced Ned to let her keep Needle by indicating she knew to “stick them with the pointy end,” Jon convinces Donal he’s able to fight with the same line: “I have need of every man who knows which end of the spear to stab into the wildlings.” “The pointy end.” Jon had told his little sister something like that once, he remembered.
• Jon shares two simple meals with Satin and Dick as they wait for the battle to arrive.
• Jon takes ownership of the old gods as his own, for I believe the first time: ‘“Pray, then,” Jon told him. “Pray to your new gods, and I’ll pray to my old ones.” This is said when the men have broken, immediately prior to lighting the switchback stair.
• Despite believing Theon has killed his brothers and burned Winterfell, Jon thinks about Theon in a pretty subdued manner, even reflecting on the fact that Theon’s a superior archer.

analysis

the battle plan

Prior to the climax of the battle on the switchback stair, we get fractured hints that a plan is in place; we see the boiling oil by the trap door, we know that kegs of flammable materials are under the switchback stair, we’re informed of men’s positions, but none of it is put into perspective as a cogent strategy. On top of this, we get Jon’s relatively calm and lucid thoughts, which would conceivably suggest the existence of an organized strategy to defeat the wildlings, but he remains silent in terms of how this is supposed to come together. By the time of the “red rout” on the switchback stair, Donal’s plan becomes obvious, but despite Jon’s non-panicked mindset, we’re given impressions of the scene without exposition of the plan until the battle is nearly won, which I assume is done primarily for the sake of story-telling. We’re (calmly) told of the poor odds, and watch the carnage unfold seemingly chaotically, which heightens the tension, rendering the outcome more climactic than if Jon had given exposition of the plan prior to the final stages.

In a nutshell, Donal’s plan was to create controlled chaos to lure the wildlings into a vulnerable (though seemingly victorious) position and apply the coup de grace.

First, everything worth saving was taken to the top of the Wall, abandoning the Castle below. The gate and the switchback stair were the two main points of vulnerability, and special measures were taken to protect them. Two makeshift barricades were erected, one comprised of non-flammable materials around the gate, and the other containing flammable materials around the foot of the staircase. As the centerpiece of the plan, Donal commanded the wooden stair to be soaked in oil from the ninth landing downward.

Men were strategically placed atop the barricades, roofs, and at various landings on the staircase. The men positioned from above as archers were relatively safe, but those below and at the lower landings of the staircase were to be sacrificial bait for the wildlings. The vulnerable men were to engage the wildlings in battle until all seemed lost, and then make a break for the staircase with the assumption that the wildlings would chase after them, at which point the stairs would become a fiery deathtrap. Though the brothers knew of the plan to lure the wildlings onto the stair, the Mole’s Town men did not, undoubtedly to make the “break” more convincing.

With the widlings running up the staircase chasing after the “broken men,” Donal signaled the archers to light the flammable materials at the base of the stair, thereby removing the possibility for escape. As the fleeing brothers make their way to a safe landing, Donal gives a second command to light the stairs from above, isolating the wildlings between two fires. Now trapped, many perish from fire, while others, including Styr, are thrown to their deaths when the ice swells and breaks off in massive chunks. At this point, the battle is won.

Essentially, the Watch exploits two major vulnerabilities—the switchback stair and the concept of “broken men”—into major opportunities. The switchback stair, which would have provided the wildlings with access to the top of the Wall, becomes a weapon in its own right. The rout operates similarly. Before the readers are clued into the intentional nature of the rout, Jon recalls his father’s words on fleeing:

“A man is never so vulnerable in battle as when he flees,” Lord Eddard had told Jon once. “A running man is like a wounded animal to a soldier. It gets his bloodlust up.” The archers on the fifth landing fled before the battle even reached them. It was a rout, a red rout.

Donal anticipated this predilection to chase, and turned their own vulnerability into a vulnerability for their enemy. Though the fact that the Mole’s Town men were not clued in to the intentional rout doesn’t quite sit right with me morally, I think the overall strategy is pretty inspired. Turning one’s weaknesses into the enemy’s weaknesses is clever and resourceful, and something we often see by many of the competent players in terms of intrigue.

As a final note, it may be worth pointing out that fire was the main ingredient in deciding the battle; though the switchback stair was the intended burn target, the entire battle scene was consumed by fire, not unlike Blackwater. Poignantly, fire turned the tide, but it was ice that finishes it.

the anvil, hammer and the King’s tower

As Jon waits for the battle to arrive, he reflects on Benjen’s explanation of the Watch’s lack of southern defenses. In the abstract, we learned much of this back in aGoT during Aemon’s ravens and dove speech, but here we get a thorough exposition of the practical manifestations of Watch neutrality.

Benjen explains that Castle Black is intended to be defenseless from the South; by remaining vulnerable, the Watch could never pose a threat to the rest of the realm. What’s extremely noteworthy about this logic is that it presupposes the condition of the Watch as a powerful threat to the rest of the realm. That is, it speaks to a highly empowered Watch (ample men, resources and order) that would have the ability to be an aggressor, and consequently, a need to mitigate this strength with a major vulnerability as a check on its power for diplomatic relations.

We’ve already seen a number of accounts of cooperation between the Watch and Winterfell in terms of taking out a common threat, as well as various cases in which the kings of Winterfell were moved to intercede when a LC went rogue, as with the Night’s King. To these, Benjen adds further accounts of the Watch’s attempted abuses of power, and easy rectification from Winterfell:

Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other?

And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible.

It’s incredibly striking that in every single account of intervention we’ve been given, it’s the NW that’s noted as the aggressor/ wrongful party. Never, in all these accounts, has there been a case of the realm violating neutrality by attacking the Watch unprovoked. Of course, we can speculate about whether there’s an element of revised history there-- that perhaps some of these interventions were done for political reasons, and later revised to present the Watch as having gone rogue. Even so, it stands that we’ve been given no precedents of intervention in cases where the Watch has been under attack by the realm as a wrongful party; adjacently, the concept of neutrality has only ever been explained presupposing the condition of a highly empowered Watch able pose a threat.

A hamstrung Watch, with no cooperation from the realm, facing an enemy from the South (all on the eve of an Other invasion, no less) is completely uncharted territory. That is, there’s no custom or law to guide procedure under these conditions, especially when the customary arrangement of the self-imposed vulnerability from the South is what’s now endangering the very existence of the Watch its condition was meant to protect. With cynicism, Jon reflects on this crisis of custom and reality:

…”We survive because the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms know that we pose no threat to them, no matter who should lead us. Our only foes are to the north, and to the north we have the Wall.”

Only now those foes have gotten past the Wall to come up from the south, Jon reflected, and the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms have forgotten us. We are caught between the hammer and the anvil.

At this juncture, the Watch, led by Donal, handles the crisis by written appeals to the various kings and lords of the realm, while staving off the threat by creatively exploiting their own vulnerabilities, as outlined above. But from this point forward, the “hammer and anvil” crisis becomes increasingly dire and finally implodes toward the end of DwD, when the Watch comes under attack by the realm directly. Ideally, Jon would have preferred a different strategy for dealing with a southern threat than Donal’s plan. Though Donal’s plan was resourceful, the cost to the Watch in terms of property damage was extremely large—nearly everything was burnt or broken, the food gardens were trampled, and resources lost. It was also incredibly risky; had the Thenns simply decided to open the gate instead of chasing the Watch up the staircase, the outcome would have been much different. Instead, Jon would have preferred to meet the wilidngs along the road with a sizable garrison:

The thing to do would be to take the attack to them, he thought. With fifty rangers well mounted, we could cut them apart on the road. They did not have fifty rangers, though, nor half as many horses.

Jon’s assessment, that riding out to meet a southern enemy is the best solution, anticipates his strategy at the end of Dance. Without defending the particulars of that future decision here, I think it’s noteworthy that this is the strategy he favors for such a circumstance well in advance of that final chapter.

In light of Jon’s reflections on the Watch’s imposed vulnerability, Jon’s assessment that the Watch is now caught between “anvil and hammer,” and Jon’s thoughts about the written appeals to kings for aid (and the fact that we know a king is about to answer this plea), it seems highly significant that the King’s Tower was chosen for Jon’s position during the battle. From this vantage, Jon was given the critical task of igniting the base of the switchback stair. Of the castle’s towers, the King’s is neither the strongest nor tallest, but has the best combination of advantages:

The King’s Tower was not the castle’s tallest—the high, slim, crumbling Lance held that honor, though Othell Yarwyck had been heard to say it might topple any day. Nor was the King’s Tower strongest—the Tower of Guards beside the kingsroad would be a tougher nut to crack. But it was tall enough, strong enough, and well placed beside the Wall, overlooking the gate and the foot of the wooden stair.

Specifically, it’s the vantage the King’s Tower provides that sets it apart from the others.

Given R+L and Robb’s will, the symbolism of Jon atop the King’s Tower goes without saying. But I think the fact that the rationale for choosing this stronghold is revealed immediately prior to the reflections on the “anvil and hammer” and thoughts about the critical importance of support from a king is a form of embedded commentary. That the King’s Tower offers the best vantage point for dealing with the various threats to the Watch (and by extension, the threats to the realm) seems to anticipate the crisis that becomes evident in DwD: given the overall unprecedented hamstrung conditions, a Lord Commander might not have enough reach to enable the Watch to perform, but a King might.

the wildling enemy

Jon’s attitude toward the wildling host is conflicted, though committed. It’s clear that Jon has been having trouble reconciling their companionship with the notion that they are the enemy, and his leg wound would have offered him the perfect excuse to abstain from fighting. Though he could have sat out, he’s determined to fight, for reasons that are never enumerated though hinted at. I think he’d talked himself into seeing them as the enemy by focusing on the fact that they were planning to slaughter his brothers in the night (as per the opening of the chapter), as well as focusing on his intense dislike of Styr. I think his determination to fight is also inspired by desire to prove that he’s not a turncloak in light of the accusations. Perhaps more deeply, I think Jon feels that he owes the Watch (especially Qhorin) a huge debt, and though he recognizes that he’s already paid off some of this by warning the men, it’s not enough for him: “You may kill us, he reflected, but no one will be butchered in their beds. That much I did, at least.”

As a final reason, it appears that Jon is fairly comfortable with the idea of death at this point. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he has a death wish, but between his pessimism, calmness, survivor’s guilt and recent personal setbacks (destruction of Winterfell, mutiny at Crasters, the loss of Sam, his organization is about to kill people he doesn’t hate, the loss of Ygritte), I think he may have accepted death as a real and potentially welcome possibility. Compared to his brothers, he’s significantly less tense and fidgety, his thoughts are pessimistic, but matter of fact, and while he’s not being cavalier and risky during the battle, he’s not especially concerned with the preservation of his life.

It appears that this internal reconciliation has taken place off-screen, and that now that the decision has been made, he tries to avoid revisiting it by not thinking about the enemy outside of Styr. But even thinking of Styr conjures unbidden thoughts about Mance’s men, and we see the conflict arise. After allowing himself one last silent plea to Ygritte, he puts the enemy out of his mind until the battle begins:

Grigg the Goat, Quort, Big Boil, and the rest will be coming as well. And Ygritte. The wildlings had never been his friends, he had not allowed them to be his friends, but her . . .

Ygritte, stay away. Go south and raid, go hide in one of those roundtowers you liked so well. You’ll find nothing here but death.

He has one final moment of doubt just before the wildlings arrive, as he looks at the stars and wonders if he’s seeing the Stallion or Horned Lord.

Once the wildlings start creeping toward battle, Jon doesn’t hesitate, though it’s clear he feels half-hearted. He recognizes Big Boil, and when Mully puts an arrow through his leg, Jon uncharacteristically chides: “That will stop him bitching about his boil.” We know Jon doesn’t hate Big Boil, and even tries to convince himself Boil is not a friend. I take this catty remark as a sign that Jon’s trying to convince himself the enemy is more vile than it truly is, especially given that he subsequently prays to see an enemy he actually wants to kill: Give me one clean shot at the Magnar of Thenn, he prayed to his father’s gods. The Magnar at least was a foe that he could hate. Give me Styr.

When Jon’s faced with Ygritte, however, he’s unable to perform even half-heartedly. Ygritte shoots Dick from the ground, and when Jon realizes she sent the arrow, he can’t bring himself to return fire. Frustrated with his inability to loose, he carelessly shoots a different target and misses:

Not ten feet from Deaf Dick’s body, he glimpsed a leather shield, a ragged cloak, a mop of thick red hair. Kissed by fire, he thought, lucky. He brought his bow up, but his fingers would not part, and she was gone as suddenly as she’d appeared. He swiveled, cursing, and loosed a shaft at the men on the armory roof instead, but he missed them as well.

Jon avoids thinking about Ygritte until the battle is done, but as soon as Styr is thrown from the ice, he asks Satin to help him “look for someone,” telling himself that surely some of Mance’s men will have escaped. Walking through the wreckage, he takes note of his wildling friends, injured and dead, until he comes on Ygritte, dying from an arrow to the lung. After confirming that the arrow is not his, he tries convincing both of them that she’s going to live, to which she replies, “You know nothing,” and dies.

Jon and his brothers

One of the striking aspects of this chapter is Jon’s interpersonal dynamics with the other Watchmen. In this chapter of crisis and panic, Jon seems to function as a figure of stability and insight for some of the men—a calm in the storm. He hides his pessimism from Satin, trying to put the boy at ease. When Owen the Oaf seeks comfort (he’s hoping King Robert will show up), Jon assuages his fears without lying. Though admittedly, many Watchmen still think Jon’s a turncloak and they turn away from him, it seems that a fair share of brothers look to him for guidance as some sort of authority figure.

Jon and Satin particularly form a bond this chapter. While waiting for the battle to start, we get Jon’s infamous, almost romantic, thoughts on the boy:

The boy claimed to be eighteen, older than Jon, but he was green as summer grass for all that. Satin, they called him, even in the wool and mail and boiled leather of the Night’s Watch; the name he’d gotten in the brothel where he’d been born and raised. He was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and raven’s ringlets. Half a year at Castle Black had toughened up his hands, however, and Noye said he was passable with a crossbow. Whether he had the courage to face what was coming, though . . .

We discussed the implications of this quasi-romantic description in thread about homoerotic paradigms a while back, and it was mentioned that battlefield language like this was a very common phenomenon historically. Though seemingly romantic, the language has more to do with an appreciation of life in the face of death than anything necessarily sexual, and as it pertains, it reveals Jon’s sadness at the recognition of Satin’s possible death.

Though he met Satin briefly just before the ranging, it appears that this is the first time they’ve interacted for any length of time. Jon seems to believe that both he and Satin are very likely about to die, yet he doesn’t resist building rapport with the boy as a form of detachment the way he does with his wildling friends. I think it’s a noteworthy contrast that Jon allows himself to form a deep affinity for Satin, whom he barely knows, while convincing himself to try to hate the wildlings, some of whom he knows much better at this point. It’s almost as though he’s unconsciously trying to transfer any affection he has for Big Boil and Quort and co. onto this boy he hardly knows.

[Mark Antony]

Brilliant analysis BB. This is one of my favorite Jon chapters. Weirdly on my first read Ygrittes death didn't really effect me at all but on re-reads it's easily one of the saddest parts for me to read idk why.

Really love the budding bromance between Jon and Satin. Marsh and Co's attitude towards him in Dance is one of the things that upsets me the most.

[Lummel]

...In terms of continuity, Jon was just confronted by a summary of important betrayals in his previous chapter (mutiny at Craster’s, Theon’s taking Winterfell and killing Bran and Rickon), while struggling with his own betrayal of the wildlings, which was in turn predicated by a ruse in which he feigned betrayal to the Watch. We get this summation of compounded betrayals in the North and are immediately launched into the climax of the Red Wedding, generally regarded as the most poignant betrayals of the series. The betrayals continue into Tyrion VI, as Tywin reveals his part in the RW, and lays out his Northern restructuring plan, involving a future betrayal of the Boltons, who had become recent allies.

...

The final chapter before Jon VII is Davos V, which has some very immediate intersections with Jon’s arc...

We learn that Pylos had shown the letter to Alester when it had first arrived, and that it had never found its way to Stannis; I don’t think Pylos handed Davos this letter by random chance, that is, I think this was Pylos’ subtle way of getting a troubling message to the king given the ensuing dialogue...

Betrayal is an interesting theme, I suppose an inevitable one given GRRM's central concern with the problems of the human heart in conflict with itself. Perhaps it is an angle that can be brought to bear on most of the POVs whether in terms of the betrayal of integrity, values, loyalties or in terms of necessity or contingency yet oddly we experience betrayal most strongly from the POV of Jon Snow. Isn't he the great traitor among the POVs? Was this a necessary part of his development as Benjen (kinda sorta) almost suggested way back in Jon I?

I think the Davos chapter is very important and its nice to see you highlighted it here. The connection is strengthened in that GRRM positins the next Davos chapter immediately before the next Jon chapter and we return to the content of that letter a second time. As an aside it is interesting that Pylos doesn't apparently have the right to address Stannis directly.

• Jon takes ownership of the old gods as his own, for I believe the first time: ‘“Pray, then,” Jon told him. “Pray to your new gods, and I’ll pray to my old ones.” This is said when the men have broken, immediately prior to lighting the switchback stair.
• Despite believing Theon has killed his brothers and burned Winterfell, Jon thinks about Theon in a pretty subdued manner, even reflecting on the fact that Theon’s a superior archer.

...

We’ve already seen a number of accounts of cooperation between the Watch and Winterfell in terms of taking out a common threat, as well as various cases in which the kings of Winterfell were moved to intercede when a LC went rogue, as with the Night’s King. To these, Benjen adds further accounts of the Watch’s attempted abuses of power, and easy rectification from Winterfell:

Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other?

And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible.

It’s incredibly striking that in every single account of intervention we’ve been given, it’s the NW that’s noted as the aggressor/ wrongful party. Never, in all these accounts, has there been a case of the realm violating neutrality by attacking the Watch unprovoked. Of course, we can speculate about whether there’s an element of revised history there-- that perhaps some of these interventions were done for political reasons, and later revised to present the Watch as having gone rogue. Even so, it stands that we’ve been given no precedents of intervention in cases where the Watch has been under attack by the realm as a wrongful party; adjacently, the concept of neutrality has only ever been explained presupposing the condition of a highly empowered Watch able pose a threat.

... With cynicism, Jon reflects on this crisis of custom and reality:

…”We survive because the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms know that we pose no threat to them, no matter who should lead us. Our only foes are to the north, and to the north we have the Wall.”

Only now those foes have gotten past the Wall to come up from the south, Jon reflected, and the lords and kings of the Seven Kingdoms have forgotten us. We are caught between the hammer and the anvil.

... Instead, Jon would have preferred to meet the wilidngs along the road with a sizable garrison:

The thing to do would be to take the attack to them, he thought. With fifty rangers well mounted, we could cut them apart on the road. They did not have fifty rangers, though, nor half as many horses.

Jon’s assessment, that riding out to meet a southern enemy is the best solution, anticipates his strategy at the end of Dance. Without defending the particulars of that future decision here, I think it’s noteworthy that this is the strategy he favors for such a circumstance well in advance of that final chapter.

...

Given R+L and Robb’s will, the symbolism of Jon atop the King’s Tower goes without saying. But I think the fact that the rationale for choosing this stronghold is revealed immediately prior to the reflections on the “anvil and hammer” and thoughts about the critical importance of support from a king is a form of embedded commentary. That the King’s Tower offers the best vantage point for dealing with the various threats to the Watch (and by extension, the threats to the realm) seems to anticipate the crisis that becomes evident in DwD: given the overall unprecedented hamstrung conditions, a Lord Commander might not have enough reach to enable the Watch to perform, but a King might...

...As a final reason, it appears that Jon is fairly comfortable with the idea of death at this point. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he has a death wish, but between his pessimism, calmness, survivor’s guilt and recent personal setbacks (destruction of Winterfell, mutiny at Crasters, the loss of Sam, his organization is about to kill people he doesn’t hate, the loss of Ygritte), I think he may have accepted death as a real and potentially welcome possibility. Compared to his brothers, he’s significantly less tense and fidgety, his thoughts are pessimistic, but matter of fact, and while he’s not being cavalier and risky during the battle, he’s not especially concerned with the preservation of his life...

Jon and his brothers

One of the striking aspects of this chapter is Jon’s interpersonal dynamics with the other Watchmen. In this chapter of crisis and panic, Jon seems to function as a figure of stability and insight for some of the men—a calm in the storm. He hides his pessimism from Satin, trying to put the boy at ease. When Owen the Oaf seeks comfort (he’s hoping King Robert will show up), Jon assuages his fears without lying. Though admittedly, many Watchmen still think Jon’s a turncloak and they turn away from him, it seems that a fair share of brothers look to him for guidance as some sort of authority figure.

...

We discussed the implications of this quasi-romantic description in thread about homoerotic paradigms a while back, and it was mentioned that battlefield language like this was a very common phenomenon historically. Though seemingly romantic, the language has more to do with an appreciation of life in the face of death than anything necessarily sexual, and as it pertains, it reveals Jon’s sadness at the recognition of Satin’s possible death.

Though he met Satin briefly just before the ranging, it appears that this is the first time they’ve interacted for any length of time. Jon seems to believe that both he and Satin are very likely about to die, yet he doesn’t resist building rapport with the boy as a form of detachment the way he does with his wildling friends. I think it’s a noteworthy contrast that Jon allows himself to form a deep affinity for Satin, whom he barely knows, while convincing himself to try to hate the wildlings, some of whom he knows much better at this point. It’s almost as though he’s unconsciously trying to transfer any affection he has for Big Boil and Quort and co. onto this boy he hardly knows.

The observation about the nature of his reflection on Theon is interesting, on the other hand memories of The Ned and Arya also feature in this chapter. perhaps Theon the archer has pasted into his Winterfell lore while Theon brotherslayer is something he is still processing, on the otherhand we also have the way that The Ned thought of Rhaegar. Whatever people speculate as to the nature of the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar and whatever maybe speculated as to the extent of The Ned's knowledge about that relationship at the very least his action sparked off a chain of events that led to the deaths of The Ned's friends and family - despite which his thoughts about Rhaegar have a distinct absence of malice or dislike. This may be some kind of disassociation, on the other hand it links back to the theme of loyalty/disloyalty, perhaps an acceptance that his action was all in the game?

Yes! the Old Gods / New gods / My father's gods / my old gods! Ragnorak pointed that out to me earlier. I think we should underline that this Jon speaking to somebody else. Later in the same chapter he still uses 'my father's gods' in his internal monologue. Also at this point he is taking the role of the grizzled veteran, the grognard talking to the boy. There is an element then of role playing. The public persona is prepared to talk of my old gods while privately he still doesn't want to displace The Ned. These are his still Father's gods (irony if L+R=J presumably intended ?). On the other hand I suggested to Ragnorak and I think earlier in this series that the old gods had to be experienced. Jon now has had experiences that might be influencing his faith/perception of reality - he has had a wolf dream, he has witnessed the dramatic intervention of a direwolf into his life, he has seen the stuff of old nan's tales in the flesh...

Butterbumps! I am at a loss reading your statement: "the concept of neutrality has only ever been explained presupposing the condition of a highly empowered Watch able pose a threat" when that conflicts completely with the Jon thought that you quote in your post. The implication of Jon's thought and his reflection on what Benjen said suggest the opposite to what you say: neutrality works because the Watch has not been capable of being a threat to the south/rest of the kingdom. This is to my mind highly significant because that dynamic is going to change dramatically during the course of ASOS. Instead of a confident, established Stark Winterfell we are going to have a weak Bolton ascendency in the wake of the Red Wedding and Robb's Will. Of a sudden we no longer have a watch that poses no threat despite who leads them but a Watch because of who leads them and the decisions that that person makes that is very threatening to the power to the south. In other words during ASOS we see the shift from inevitable neutrality because the Watch can pose no threat to inevitable conflict because the Watch is inherently threatening/

Likewise the riding out to cut the Thenns to pieces is in context a reference to the area of the Gift, I'm not sure I could in good faith see that as a precursor to the Jon XIII situation in ADWD. One could also see it as suggesting that Jon was capable of conducting an aggressive defence - seeking to lure an aggressor into territory on which the Watch would be the defenders and could ambush their attackers.

The King's tower - nice observation...although there are a couple of other intimate moments between men on top of magnificent stony erections, one in ADWD and one in The Mystery Knight that brings us back to the homo-eroticism angle... ;)

Comfort with the idea of death is something I associated with Jon in ADWD - it makes sense that it starts here.

Jon as an authority figure is a great point and one that I'll be returning to in the next chapter post that I'll be putting on to this thread on next Saturday or Sunday. But the build up to that starts here...

A few other things I noted down when I reread the chapter:

• "You may kill us...but no one will be butchered in their beds. That much I did, at least" This I thought was incredibly poignant - what did he expect of himself? To defeat the Thenns singlehandedly? His expectations on himself seem completely unreasonable - no wonder he comes to be depressed.
• A lot of memories in this chapter, Arya, The Ned, theon, the Old Man's eyes, Ygritte
• "He had made as many enemies as friends at Castle Black" - is that really true? Seems rather over the top...
• "his fingers would not part" very nice disassociation as much to be taken at face value as 'my cock betrayed me'

[Julian Rayne]

Davos - there was nothing in the letter that suggested a supernatural threat, it spoke of Mance and Wildlings. Davos somehow picked up on the atavistic fear in the letter and connected it with Mellisandre's War for the Dawn, and not with a particularly successful Wildling incursion.

Jon's "death wish". I agree that he doesn't explicitly have one. I thinks he's entering into a state of clinical depressions that he remains in throughout the next book.

[SeanF]

I loved your comments on Jon/Satin, BB. They aren't as close as Frodo/Sam in LOTR, but the relationship is somewhat similar. There were some very good comments on your homoeroticism thread, about how in the past, soldiers have described their comrades in terms that sound romantic, but are not necessarily evidence for their being lovers.

[butterbumps!]

I think the Davos chapter is very important and its nice to see you highlighted it here. The connection is strengthened in that GRRM positins the next Davos chapter immediately before the next Jon chapter and we return to the content of that letter a second time. As an aside it is interesting that Pylos doesn't apparently have the right to address Stannis directly.

One thing I realized reading these back to back is that they're different letters. The letter Davos reads is addressed to the "five kings," and pertains to the attack at the Fist and Mance's host. The letters Jon thinks about this chapter are a new set sent by Aemon, to the "four kings" (as well as various lords), pleading for help with imminent wildling attack.

Butterbumps! I am at a loss reading your statement: "the concept of neutrality has only ever been explained presupposing the condition of a highly empowered Watch able pose a threat" when that conflicts completely with the Jon thought that you quote in your post. The implication of Jon's thought and his reflection on what Benjen said suggest the opposite to what you say: neutrality works because the Watch has not been capable of being a threat to the south/rest of the kingdom. This is to my mind highly significant because that dynamic is going to change dramatically during the course of ASOS. Instead of a confident, established Stark Winterfell we are going to have a weak Bolton ascendency in the wake of the Red Wedding and Robb's Will. Of a sudden we no longer have a watch that poses no threat despite who leads them but a Watch because of who leads them and the decisions that that person makes that is very threatening to the power to the south. In other words during ASOS we see the shift from inevitable neutrality because the Watch can pose no threat to inevitable conflict because the Watch is inherently threatening/

Hmm...I'm not sure if I understand the conflict. I was trying to say that the lack of southern defenses were a way to add vulnerability to an otherwise highly empowered Watch-- that is, without this applied vulnerability, the Watch would have been able to operate in a fairly unchecked manner. In other words, yes, this rendered the Watch less empowered, but that condition was required because the Watch could pose a significant threat without it. Does that make more sense?

And agreed with your take-- that's a really good point. Now, the Watch isn't so much a military threat to the South, but a political one in terms of Jon as Ned's son/ Robb's heir.

I loved your comments on Jon/Satin, BB. They aren't as close as Frodo/Sam in LOTR, but the relationship is somewhat similar. There were some very good comments on your homoeroticism thread, about how in the past, soldiers have described their comrades in terms that sound romantic, but are not necessarily evidence for their being lovers.

I especially liked your comments in that thread explaining the language as a relic of poetry from Antiquity, where without having known the sexual undertones, learned men might mimic that language not realizing the sexual intent of the originals.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I think it’s a noteworthy contrast that Jon allows himself to form a deep affinity for Satin, whom he barely knows, while convincing himself to try to hate the wildlings, some of whom he knows much better at this point. It’s almost as though he’s unconsciously trying to transfer any affection he has for Big Boil and Quort and co. onto this boy he hardly knows.

JOn has shown me time and time again how he's drawn to the "misfits". Look at who he's bonded with in the story: Arya, who was a failure of a daughter to Cat, Septa and Sansa, Tyrion -the "bastard in his father's eyes", Sam- the failure of a son, renowned coward and freakishly overweight, and Satin- the boy prostitute that is hated by most of the brothers.

Being drawn to these types of people is one thing- I understand it completely. He wants to help them, make them feel better and appreciated. But Jon goes beyond that, he OPENS up to these people. He bares his heart , his dreams, his fears to the people that are outcasts, like him.

His relationship with Satin doesn't progress like it did with the other three, but the two big battles and Jon quickly becoming leader may have prevented it from growing into a deeper friendship. He does though keep Satin safely under his wing when he becomes LC.

I found it weird that all through that chapter, Jon thinks of Satin in respectful descriptions but in the last page, he drapes one arm over a crutch and the other arm over the shoulders of a boy "who'd been a whore in Oldtown". In the beginning of that chapter, Jon skirts around Satin's previous life and gently thinks, "that he was born and raised in a brothel". In the end of that chapter, he thinks of him in a more vulgar term that is un-Jon-like:) He is frantic though at that particular moment. He can barely walk but has to look for Ygritte amongst the bodies.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, bumps!

He watched the Stallion gallop up the sky

The last time we saw the Stallion, in Jaime's chapter, the Stallion was rearing. The Celts regarded the Stallion as a symbol of war. The Stallion rearing or stopping could imply that the Wo5K is on hiatus, and Jon seeing it gallop again could foreshadow the war continuing.

"You know nothing Jon Snow."

I think this marks the point where Jon becomes a man.

"Do you remember that cave? We should have stayed in that cave."

I think this could be a reference to Plato's Cave. Jon has spent time with the wildlings, taken out of the traditional view he has had of them growing up and at CB. The depictions of the wildlings he had known had no substance, and what sees casting the shadows on the wall, or the wildlings from which the descriptions stem from, constituting a greater reality. He sees that the NW and the wildlings need to unite against a common foe.

Wouldn't it be said of him that he went up and came back with his eyes corrupted, and that it's not even worth trying to go up? And if they were somehow able to get their hands on and kill the man who attempts to release and lead them up, wouldn't they kill him?-Plato's Cave from The Republic

That could be the attitude of men like Marsh towards Jon. Now that Jon has spent time amongst the wildings, Marsh and Co. could have seen Jon's "eyes" or the way he sees things corrupted. Jon tries to lead them up the path in seeing past their assumptions regarding wildlings, and find the common ground between them, which results in Marsh and Co attempting to kill Jon.

[Lummel]

I loved your comments on Jon/Satin, BB. They aren't as close as Frodo/Sam in LOTR, but the relationship is somewhat similar. There were some very good comments on your homoeroticism thread, about how in the past, soldiers have described their comrades in terms that sound romantic, but are not necessarily evidence for their being lovers.

Oh, but surely military service is simply intrinsically homo-erotic. All that man to man bonding and focus on masculine virtues, the sacred band of Thebes is simply the natural end point that other polities have been too shy to embrace ;)

...Hmm...I'm not sure if I understand the conflict. I was trying to say that the lack of southern defenses were a way to add vulnerability to an otherwise highly empowered Watch-- that is, without this applied vulnerability, the Watch would have been able to operate in a fairly unchecked manner. In other words, yes, this rendered the Watch less empowered, but that condition was required because the Watch could pose a significant threat without it. Does that make more sense?...

Yes, some. I suppose I don't see the Watch as being neutral because of armed neutrality. At best with adequete defences they could hold off the fervent attentions of Winterfell. I think I see where you might be going with this - to Jon XIII and suggesting that neutrality has to be mutual. My reading of Jon's memories of what his uncle said is that it is the other way round. Neutrality is one sided. The Watch is intended to be submissive to Winterfell and Winterfell has an acknowledged right to intervene in the watch's affairs if things get out of hand - in which case Jon's sense of the papershield from Sam I AFFC and the beginning of ADWD puts his actions with regard to Stannis in a different light :dunno:

JOn has shown me time and time again how he's drawn to the "misfits". Look at who he's bonded with in the story: Arya, who was a failure of a daughter to Cat, Septa and Sansa, Tyrion -the "bastard in his father's eyes", Sam- the failure of a son, renowned coward and freakishly overweight, and Satin- the boy prostitute that is hated by most of the brothers.

Being drawn to these types of people is one thing- I understand it completely. He wants to help them, make them feel better and appreciated. But Jon goes beyond that, he OPENS up to these people. He bares his heart , his dreams, his fears to the people that are outcasts, like him...

I found it weird that all through that chapter, Jon thinks of Satin in respectful descriptions but in the last page, he drapes one arm over a crutch and the other arm over the shoulders of a boy "who'd been a whore in Oldtown". In the beginning of that chapter, Jon skirts around Satin's previous life and gently thinks, "that he was born and raised in a brothel". In the end of that chapter, he thinks of him in a more vulgar term that is un-Jon-like:) He is frantic though at that particular moment. He can barely walk but has to look for Ygritte amongst the bodies.

Yes, but be careful here, Jon has good relationship with Robb and Bran too, Theon is the only one of that younger generation that he seems not to like yet Theon is the one who is clearly the outcast lonely figure, Arya only feels an outcast from her Mother's affections from ACOK once she has started killing people. On the otherhand he doesn't make friends with Chett who is also an isolated, misunderstood figure nor Alister Thorne!

I'm not sure that Jon opens up particularly to anybody apart from Sam. They seem to share most, but then they are the most alike - Lord's sons up at the Wall, denied the inheritance for different reasons.

I find that use of 'whore' to describe Satin curious too. Perhaps it is the standard term in Westeros and not thought of as particularly insulting. I don't think anybody uses the word prostitute that I can recall offhand :dunno:

..."Do you remember that cave? We should have stayed in that cave."

I think this could be a reference to Plato's Cave. Jon has spent time with the wildlings, taken out of the traditional view he has had of them growing up and at CB. The depictions of the wildlings he had known had no substance, and what sees casting the shadows on the wall, or the wildlings from which the descriptions stem from, constituting a greater reality. He sees that the NW and the wildlings need to unite against a common foe...

Interesting, the cave and watching the flickering shadows on the wall is not reality though I thought, in that sense staying the cave is the longing to remain in the world of illusion in which a romance between Jon and Ygritte was a possibility while the real world of Westeros or beyond the Wall forces Jon to break either his oath or his 'n Ygritte's hearts (I like her death with the arrow in the chest - it is like some evil Cupid struck)

ETA - something else I remembered from this chapter - the death of Rast. At the start of the book we have the death of Chett. Just wanted to flag up the deaths of people with cause to dislike Jon. Jon's statement that he has as many enemies as friends is then a piece of misdirection to add an element of surprise to Jon's election in a few chapters time maybe?