Another Thought on Loras

[Hippocras]

I can't find my other Loras threads, but the basics are this:

I agree there is a high likelihood Loras is not badly injured.

If not badly injured, he is either a hostage for Dorne or Aegon (via Aurane Waters), or the High Septon is sympathetic to the Tyrells. Why? Because if Loras was not very sure his sister would survive her trial and was free to do so, he would be back in KL to be her champion, or Garlan would be. If the Tyrells are sure, it means they have an inside track. Or if they are not sure, then Loras is physically unable to come to KL.

Finally, I am quite certain the Tyrell alliance with Littlefinger is still active. Which means that Loras, if not a hostage, may well be on his way to the Vale in the near future once the ground is set there: Bringing with him Aurane and the royal fleet.

[Veltigar]

I think the Tyrells are right to do that because Dragonstone is nothing compared to the havoc Euron is creating in the Reach only because the Redwyne Fleet is away. Cersei is a fool to keep the Redwyne Fleet occupied for something completely unimportant.

Lol, so what? The fact that it's the sensible thing to do doesn't make the act of killing 2000 Lannister soldiers (who thought you were their ally) any less despicable.

[newbieone]

Can't it be just a device to make Loras available as a champion in one of the upcoming trials by combat?

I can buy Loras not being at death's door, but there is something about this theory that I don't quite understand. Why do you think that Cersei would care about the loss of 1000, or even 2000 Lannister men?

Not much for a field army but important for garrison size. Allying with Stannis is probably out of the question, but the Targ door is still open. Or they may be content simply having Tommen around and wed to Marg, resulting in kids 'of the houses of Baratheon and Tyrell'.

[Veltigar] What I like about this theory is that it really shows how horrible the Tyrells really are. If this theory is true then they just massacred so much people just because they wore other House colors.

I know they can act in surprisingly amoral ways for someone who acts like a good guy, but I don't think they'd sink to the level of killing off the troops on purpose — unless they had a strong hidden agenda and motivation to act like the enemy within, but only the Martells and ex-Stark bannermen (e.g. Manderly) have that type of motivation. Aurane might, being essentially a bastard Targaryen cadet himself (he even looks like Rhaegar).

[Ambi76] I think he's injured but also will be up to something now (GRRM loves his maiming & rebirth motive).

Davos is #19 and Loras is #36 in the most mentioned characters in ASOIAF game. Yes, I was rather surprised Loras is that far up myself.

Loras is a sort of post-chivalric archetype. In the middle ages, the dominant archetypes were the ruler, the warrior (knight) and the priest/saint/hermit. Then there was the knight and lady thing, or knight and king relationship. GRRM takes the knight in Loras and makes it laundry public.

— Mare in heat. It's not just unfair combat, targeting horses was a strong taboo in tourneys. Remember Ivanhoe? An unsaddled knight, having to face a still mounted opponent was specifically reminded to avoid injuring the horse (perhaps a little over the top, but anyway), and GRRM supposedly recommends reading Ivanhoe/references it in some meaningful way.

— The beautiful and brave ladies' man actually prefers guys.

— Was possibly involved in trying to replace Cersei with Marg, which Renly schemed a year ago, when Loras was presumably already an active knight/junior lordling with some important secondary roles to play.

— Supported Renly while not knowing about the incest and with Stannis silent, true, but still a clearly junior claimant. (While possibly because he seemed to be the ideal chivalrous king material to them; switching back to KL over Stannis due to family feud/reservations/fear.)

— Garlas fought in Renly's armour only because Loras's frame was too small, otherwise it would've been Loras.

— Where the Tyrells ask for their rewards after the Blackwater, Loras participates in the shameless weaseling up to Joff.

— Gave Sansa a rose at the tourney (obviously memorable due to a Lyanna & Rhaegar reminiscence), didn't even remember her much afterward (whereas she developed a long-term crush on him).

— Quite possibly knows about the incest at some point.

— While Loras is probably gay, Cersei notes that he and his sister, despite not being twins, are more similar to each other than she and Jaime. And IIRC Jaime sees him as a younger version of himself. Perhaps in some way that's meant to mean something more than a shallow similarity to Cersei and Jaime's impact on the fate of the kingdom. (Both getting dislodged by 'younger and more beautiful'.)

This all is mitigated by his supposedly being ambitious and at least a little egotic, but not false. 'Yet'. And question is, to what extent it's still 'yet'.

[Mithras]

Lol, so what? The fact that it's the sensible thing to do doesn't make the act of killing 2000 Lannister soldiers (who thought you were their ally) any less despicable.

I don't think it is despicable. It may not be honorable but they needed to storm the castle quickly and Cersei gave Loras the command. I don't blame him if he chose the Lannister men for the first wave. Cersei thought that sending Loras was a very good move of hers but that bit her ass like everything she did. If Cersei postponed the taking of Dragonstone, they would not need to storm the castle.

[Hippocras]

I don't think it is despicable. It may not be honorable but they needed to storm the castle quickly and Cersei gave Loras the command. I don't blame him if he chose the Lannister men for the first wave. Cersei thought that sending Loras was a very good move of hers but that bit her ass like everything she did. If Cersei postponed the taking of Dragonstone, they would not need to storm the castle.

I agree. If this is what happened, blame Cersei.

[Veltigar]

I don't think it is despicable. It may not be honorable but they needed to storm the castle quickly and Cersei gave Loras the command. I don't blame him if he chose the Lannister men for the first wave. Cersei thought that sending Loras was a very good move of hers but that bit her ass like everything she did. If Cersei postponed the taking of Dragonstone, they would not need to storm the castle.

Again, murdering 2000 soldiers (who trust you) because their boss made a mistake is despicable. Even if there is no sensible alternative.

[Mithras]

Again, murdering 2000 soldiers (who trust you) because their boss made a mistake is despicable. Even if there is no sensible alternative.

I don't call that murder. Everyone knows the consequences of storming a castle. They have to pay the price thanks to the bitch queen and no sane man kills his own troops especially if he is in a big hurry and he needs his men at home fighting the ironborn. What can be called murder is the command of Roose to Robett to attack Duskendale.

[Biter the Gallant]

Perhaps it it is my fault but I simply can't imagine a realistic method to hide the fact that the Stannis loyalists still hold Dragonstone from the Lannisters for a long time. It seems to be totally impossible. Especially as there must be still many surviving loyal Western knights and soldiers of the expeditionary army.

On the other hand, I tend to believe that the news about the wounds of Loras are exaggarated, or totally false.

[Veltigar]

I don't call that murder. Everyone knows the consequences of storming a castle. They have to pay the price thanks to the bitch queen and no sane man kills his own troops especially if he is in a big hurry and he needs his men at home fighting the ironborn. What can be called murder is the command of Roose to Robett to attack Duskendale.

Again not disputing the necessity, just pointing out that it's a morally reprihensible act if the OP is right

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I've never been a big Loras fan, but the line "i've never seen a braver knight" describing him is pretty cool. He seems to be somewhat of a knight from the past. The type of guy who would have rode alongside Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Gerold Hightower

[Et Cetera the Mouse]

I agree that Loras is probably ok, simply because he's too badly injured to be dead. If he had died, I feel like Aurane would have said "He died storming the castle", instead of a lengthy description of his injuries. Cersei hates Loras everybody, so the more pain she thinks he died in, the happier she will be. The Tyrells aren't openly supporting a different king, although they might go for whoever LF decides to back (there was mention of a Tyrell-LF alliance), provided that king marries Margaery. If they back Aegon, they might increase the rivalry with Dorne b/c they will want Margaery to marry Aegon, rather than Arianne. They want a Tyrell married to the ruler, so the promise of Garlan/Dany or Willas/Dany might convince them to go to Daenerys' side. No matter how Loras is, they've definitely jumped from the sinking Lannister ship. It's just a question of where they'll go next.

[The Fresh PtwP]

And what makes it fishy is that it aligns far too well with what Cersei wanted to hear.

Right? Since she's become a POV, what has gone exactly her way like Loras and Dragonstone just did?

Somethings up.

[denny717]

I think Loras deffinetly is badly burned, but theres no way he'll die(yet). its GRRM style to take away things that define their character. Bran likes to climb=useless legs. jaimies a great swordsman=no sword hand. loras is so handsome= burned face! He's going to come back into the center of attention again with an ugly face and an attitude towards lannisters to match.

[ambi76]

While Loras is probably gay, Cersei notes that he and his sister, despite not being twins, are more similar to each other than she and Jaime. And IIRC Jaime sees him as a younger version of himself. Perhaps in some way that's meant to mean something more than a shallow similarity to Cersei and Jaime's impact on the fate of the kingdom. (Both getting dislodged by 'younger and more beautiful'.)

Interesting list newbieone, but that last point of yours always leaves me a bit puzzled, that people really seriously consider Mad Queen Cersei's insane internal ramblinges re Loras and Margaery and a potential incest story there. This is so cearly projection to me, that it always makes me laugh when people take it seriously.

This is even despite there actually being some vague (Loras/Renly/Margaery) threesome implications in the text IMHO via the recollection of Renly's wedding night by Taena, which always makes it funny, when people get outraged at the show for Maergery's suggestion to Renly there. I just don't think it will amount to anything (except some hot fanfiction maybe).

[Rhaegar the Dragon Prince]

I don't think he is dying, either he took a minor wound or the Tyrells made it up completely.

Also note how in Cersei's POV chapters where she is ruling, she doesn't actually do anything to benefit the realm, she seems to just be about ridding King's Landing of all Tyrells and their underlings.

[Hippocras]

People really need to give much more consideration to the meaning and implications of the Tyrell alliance with Littlefinger.

[HexMachina]

I like this idea :) I think it is possible that Loras was injured in the taking of Dragonstone, but certainly not as severely as it is made out in the books. There is a clear power struggle between the Lannisters and Tyrells in King's Landing, and we know from a Clash of Kings that removing soldiers from a key player's grasp is a common move, as we have this from Tyrion:

Littlefinger stroked his beard. “Do you truly mean to send away all your guards, Lannister?”

“No, I mean to send away all my sister’s guards.”

“The queen will never allow that.”

...

“And for the sake of her beloved brother, she will consent, despite her misgivings.” They made their way down a deserted colonnade.

“Still, the loss of her red cloaks will surely make her uneasy.”

“I like her uneasy,” said Tyrion.

and finally, something else to point out some news from Ser Loras since Cersei was imprisoned

I am the queen! She swallowed, smiled, and said, “That is good to know. Tommen loves her so. I never believed those terrible things that were being said of her.”

Had Margaery Tyrell somehow wriggled free of the accusations of fornication, adultery, and high treason?

“Was there a trial?”

“Soon,” said Septa Scolera, “but her brother—”

“Hush.” Septa Unella turned to glare back over her shoulder at Scolera. “You chatter too much, you foolish old woman. It is not for us to speak of such things.”

Her brother what? Returned? Has sailed to the Reach? Died?

[HexMachina]

I can't find my other Loras threads, but the basics are this:

I agree there is a high likelihood Loras is not badly injured.

If not badly injured, he is either a hostage for Dorne or Aegon (via Aurane Waters), or the High Septon is sympathetic to the Tyrells. Why? Because if Loras was not very sure his sister would survive her trial and was free to do so, he would be back in KL to be her champion, or Garlan would be. If the Tyrells are sure, it means they have an inside track. Or if they are not sure, then Loras is physically unable to come to KL.

Finally, I am quite certain the Tyrell alliance with Littlefinger is still active. Which means that Loras, if not a hostage, may well be on his way to the Vale in the near future once the ground is set there: Bringing with him Aurane and the royal fleet.

I don't think Loras can be prisoner in Dorne, as we have PoV chapters there with Arriane and Areo since Dragonstone fell, and really Dorne stands to gain nothing by capturing Loras except a ransom or p***ing off the Tyrells.

Also, Margaery will not have a champion. She is not having a Trial by Combat, but is being trialed by judges. I believe that this is because she really is innocent, and knows that the evidence will never stand up to even flimsy scrutiny - which is pretty clear, since their only confession has come from a half mad, mutilated singer, and they have a confession from Osney that Cersei ordered him to lie about bedding Margaery. Really, there is no evidence against her. If I was Margaery, I would be going for a regular trial too

[Hippocras]

I don't think Loras can be prisoner in Dorne, as we have PoV chapters there with Arriane and Areo since Dragonstone fell, and really Dorne stands to gain nothing by capturing Loras except a ransom or p***ing off the Tyrells.

Also, Margaery will not have a champion. She is not having a Trial by Combat, but is being trialed by judges. I believe that this is because she really is innocent, and knows that the evidence will never stand up to even flimsy scrutiny - which is pretty clear, since their only confession has come from a half mad, mutilated singer, and they have a confession from Osney that Cersei ordered him to lie about bedding Margaery. Really, there is no evidence against her. If I was Margaery, I would be going for a regular trial too

Well no, being a prisoner for Dorne doesn't necessarily mean he is in Dorne.

But that is not my favorite option anyway. My preferred option is that the Tyrells have activated their exit strategy, have been working with LF, and are about to make a surprising move.

I am actually not in the camp that is convinced Dorne will side with Aegon. I am wondering if the Tyrells will, with LF's "official" support.

[ambi76]

I am the queen! She swallowed, smiled, and said, “That is good to know. Tommen loves her so. I never believed those terrible things that were being said of her.”

Had Margaery Tyrell somehow wriggled free of the accusations of fornication, adultery, and high treason?

“Was there a trial?”

“Soon,” said Septa Scolera, “but her brother—”

“Hush.” Septa Unella turned to glare back over her shoulder at Scolera. “You chatter too much, you foolish old woman. It is not for us to speak of such things.”

Her brother what? Returned? Has sailed to the Reach? Died?

I actually still think the Septa is not even talking about Loras here, but Willas (described as boring and pious by Littlefinger) who maybe asked to attend Marg's trail as attestor (for her virginity) or something.