No Arianne Martell?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I do not think it has much to do with whether they consider the character interesting so much as when they were introduced. Had Arianne been introduced in the first book of the series, she would have been cast. But the cumulative effect of adding more and more characters to the television show ensured that characters first appearing in the fourth and fifth books were always more likely to be cut unless they were absolutely vital to the conclusion of the story.

This.

[waldo027]

This is excellent news.

It means the show makers are thinking ahead to the future and are willing to make tough decisions that fly in the face of GRRM. Its good to see that they have wrestled control of the series from him and are ready to call bull on what is important plot wise and what is filler. Obviously Arrianes role was a lot less substantial than we originally assumed and that Quentyns journey was a dead end.

I am also glad that it confirms that D&D and HBO understand the weaknesses of the last two books and are more willing to make changes here.

I agree with you 100%, they absolutely must cut a ton of crap from Feast/Dance to fit it all in 7 seasons, but GRRM's opinion of the show means zilch. He sold away his life's work to HBO and they can do whatever they want with it. If they want, they can have Maester Aemon suck Jon Snow's blood, say a prayer to R'hllor, then transform into a giant dragon who kills everyone and destroys the entire world. They own the story.

http://variety.com/2007/scene/news/hbo-turns-fire-into-fantasy-series-1117957532/

This is when HBO wrestled control of the series away from GRRM. Check the date on it.

[Queen of Whores]

they can have Maester Aemon suck Jon Snow's blood, say a prayer to R'hllor, then transform into a giant dragon who kills everyone and destroys the entire world.

Meh, still better then Daenerys' Qarth storyline.

[Makk]

I don't like this at all. Not only for the loss of all Ariannes scenes but also the relationship with her father. Doran was imo a really subtle and well written character. He simply won't work the same way without Arianne. I can't see how Aegon will fit in properly now either, I guess one of the sand snakes could take her place but without being the heir to Dorne what they offer isn't as attractive.

[El Guapo]

I agree with you 100%, they absolutely must cut a ton of crap from Feast/Dance to fit it all in 7 seasons, but GRRM's opinion of the show means zilch. He sold away his life's work to HBO and they can do whatever they want with it. If they want, they can have Maester Aemon suck Jon Snow's blood, say a prayer to R'hllor, then transform into a giant dragon who kills everyone and destroys the entire world. They own the story.

http://variety.com/2007/scene/news/hbo-turns-fire-into-fantasy-series-1117957532/

This is when HBO wrestled control of the series away from GRRM. Check the date on it.

I would watch that.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I don't like this at all. Not only for the loss of all Ariannes scenes but also the relationship with her father. Doran was imo a really subtle and well written character. He simply won't work the same way without Arianne. I can't see how Aegon will fit in properly now either, I guess one of the sand snakes could take her place but without being the heir to Dorne what they offer isn't as attractive.

A lot of readers speculate that Aegon will fall for Elia Sand based on her behavior in the Arianne sample chapter from TWoW. It really doesn't make sense to judge too much without knowing what's right around the bend.

[Ruin]

This could work...it'd be a different approach, but it could still work.

Spoilers:

In AFFC, Tyene mentioned to Doran the crowning of Myrcella, to incite a defensive war against the Lannisters. Instead of Arianne's issues with Quentyn, Tyene and her sisters could be spurred into action under the pretense of Doran's inaction/anger of their father's death, and convince Trystane to act against Doran and marry Myrcella right away. The news of Tywin's death would could only reaffirm their decision to act now.

In this case, the kingsguard that left with Myrcella can still get owned by Hotah, and the Sand Snakes can still be locked up. If they're cutting Darkstar, perhaps Myrcella is injured during this exchange. From here we get the reconcialltion and Targaryen connection, maybe Tyrs was meant for Dany, and the Sand Snakes are sent to KL...at least Nym and Tyene. Obara maybe to Dany with Trys, as his bodyguard, for S6/Quentyn's role?

[Makk]

A lot of readers speculate that Aegon will fall for Elia Sand based on her behavior in the Arianne sample chapter from TWoW. It really doesn't make sense to judge too much without knowing what's right around the bend.

That's highly possible, but in that case in the books it is likely there would be a love triangle between the three of them, which is more problems for the show without Arianne. It is true that judging is dangerous when we don't know the direction the show or even the books are going. But we can speculate. My biggest gripe with the show is that it has a history of ignoring subtle relationships between the characters and I fear this will be the same. The Jaime and Cersei relationship is quite different, Tyrions relationship with Jaime and Tywin doesn't make sense without Tysha etc

[Ser Pounce FTW]

That's highly possible, but in that case in the books it is likely there would be a love triangle between the three of them, which is more problems for the show without Arianne. It is true that judging is dangerous when we don't know the direction the show or even the books are going. But we can speculate. My biggest gripe with the show is that it has a history of ignoring subtle relationships between the characters and I fear this will be the same. The Jaime and Cersei relationship is quite different, Tyrions relationship with Jaime and Tywin doesn't make sense without Tysha etc

Love triangle? That's quite a stretch considering none of them have even met yet. And Tysha doesn't make it hard to understand Tyrion's relationship with his family. She was the straw that broke the camel's back but there were plenty of other straws already in place. Tysha is much more about Tyrion's relationship with himself and that is indeed different on the show. Still, it remains to be seen what he will think of himself next season. Might be a good idea to make peace with the idea that the show will be paring down the number of characters. There's very little way around that if they want to keep viewers clear on who's who.

[Pecan]

That's highly possible, but in that case in the books it is likely there would be a love triangle between the three of them, which is more problems for the show without Arianne. It is true that judging is dangerous when we don't know the direction the show or even the books are going. But we can speculate. My biggest gripe with the show is that it has a history of ignoring subtle relationships between the characters and I fear this will be the same. The Jaime and Cersei relationship is quite different, Tyrions relationship with Jaime and Tywin doesn't make sense without Tysha etc

This is one of the reasons why I make the argument that the screen adapation of ASOIAF would be better if it departed from the source material more radically than it has to date. Some of the best television of all time has been made in the last decade or so. Just to name a few programs: The Sopranos, Deadwood, Breaking Bad, and Battlestar Galactica. What all of those programs have in common is that they are very deeply character driven; each of these shows has just a limited number of characters that the viewers get to know very, very well. As a viewer, there's little room for confusion about the relationship between characters, character motivations, etc. GoT, on the other hand, has a huge cast with multiple storylines competing for screentime. For bookreaders, this is fine. We get what's happening because we have this base of knowledge in our heads. But for the unsullied, I'm not sure how they follow it at times, especially since the backstory is largely untold.

I think one reason those programs worked as well as they did is that they were written for television. They don't suffer from the limitations of adapting someone else's source material. And so, when thinking about the idea of adapting ASOIAF, I think I would have approached it by asking this question: how would you tell this story if the books had never been written? But the approach D & D have taken, it seems to me, is to try and transcribe the books to the screen as closely as possible. Sure, they've changed up a few things here and there, but for the most part they've stayed pretty close to the main structure of the books. And they've done an okay job it for the most part. But, while GoT is good television, it isn't great. Not really. It could have been though. Maybe in 20 years or so, when the book series is long complete, someone will come up with a new adaptation that is more visionary.

[Tyrion1991]

:D :D :D

From the Variety article http://variety.com/2007/scene/news/hbo-turns-fire-into-fantasy-series-1117957532/

"The series will begin with the 1996 first book, “A Game of Thrones,” and the intention is for each novel (they average 1,000 pages each) to fuel a season’s worth of episodes. Martin has nearly finished the fifth installment, but won’t complete the seven-book cycle until 2011"

[Queen of Whores]

This is one of the reasons why I make the argument that the screen adapation of ASOIAF would be better if it departed from the source material more radically than it has to date. Some of the best television of all time has been made in the last decade or so. Just to name a few programs: The Sopranos, Deadwood, Breaking Bad, and Battlestar Galactica. What all of those programs have in common is that they are very deeply character driven; each of these shows has just a limited number of characters that the viewers get to know very, very well. As a viewer, there's little room for confusion about the relationship between characters, character motivations, etc. GoT, on the other hand, has a huge cast with multiple storylines competing for screentime. For bookreaders, this is fine. We get what's happening because we have this base of knowledge in our heads. But for the unsullied, I'm not sure how they follow it at times, especially since the backstory is largely untold.

I think one reason those programs worked as well as they did is that they were written for television. They don't suffer from the limitations of adapting someone else's source material. And so, when thinking about the idea of adapting ASOIAF, I think I would have approached it by asking this question: how would you tell this story if the books had never been written? But the approach D & D have taken, it seems to me, is to try and transcribe the books to the screen as closely as possible. Sure, they've changed up a few things here and there, but for the most part they've stayed pretty close to the main structure of the books. And they've done an okay job it for the most part. But, while GoT is good television, it isn't great. Not really. It could have been though. Maybe in 20 years or so, when the book series is long complete, someone will come up with a new adaptation that is more visionary.

Normally I'd be considered a "book purist," and would advocate loyalty to the source material over all, but your arguments made complete sense, and now that I think about it I agree. I would rather have something that is absolutely fantastic TV at the cost of loyalty to source material, than quasi-loyal to the source material but only average TV (which GoT is right now). Some of my favourite films have been quite unloyal to their source material, such as The Shining and Children of Men. I too think a smaller focus would have allowed for much greater characterisation and subtlety.

[Makk]

Love triangle? That's quite a stretch considering none of them have even met yet. And Tysha doesn't make it hard to understand Tyrion's relationship with his family. She was the straw that broke the camel's back but there were plenty of other straws already in place. Tysha is much more about Tyrion's relationship with himself and that is indeed different on the show. Still, it remains to be seen what he will think of himself next season. Might be a good idea to make peace with the idea that the show will be paring down the number of characters. There's very little way around that if they want to keep viewers clear on who's who.

You were the one who started speculating that Aegon would fall for Elia, despite not having met yet. If that did happen why is it so much more of a stretch to consider Arianne simply accepting it?

They are not cutting down on the number of characters, in this case they are promoting far less important characters (in terms of the books) into presumably more prominent roles.

[Makk]

This is one of the reasons why I make the argument that the screen adapation of ASOIAF would be better if it departed from the source material more radically than it has to date.

SNIP

I'm in two minds about whether I want the show to depart from the story to a greater degree or not. I quite strongly prefer the books to the show and I think the times they have changed things in the past are generally weaker. I agree with what you were saying about reducing the number of characters making it easier for the viewer. But, and I am speculating here, I don't think that is what they are even going for. They are simply replacing important characters with less important ones having the same level of complexity. I am guessing we are still going to get much of the Arianne/Myrcella storyline but with Trystane seducing her, along with some inventions, instead. Heck, he may even be bisexual if they do have Aegon.

However I think it is inevitable it will depart further and further. Since the show will soon be bringing in some elements that have not been written, it could be better if there was a general understanding that the book and show are no longer tightly entwined. I don't want GRRM being influenced by the show in any way, so if the show demonstrates they are now quite different, while there is still some known source material, it might not be such a bad thing.

I actually want to force myself to stop watching the show until the final books are all out. I don't want my reading spoiled or impacted by seeing new material in the show that may or may not be based on what GRRM is to write. Not sure I will be able to resist when the next season starts though.

[Pecan]

I'm in two minds about whether I want the show to depart from the story to a greater degree or not. I quite strongly prefer the books to the show and I think the times they have changed things in the past are generally weaker. I agree with what you were saying about reducing the number of characters making it easier for the viewer. But, and I am speculating here, I don't think that is what they are even going for. They are simply replacing important characters with less important ones having the same level of complexity. I am guessing we are still going to get much of the Arianne/Myrcella storyline but with Trystane seducing her, along with some inventions, instead. Heck, he may even be bisexual if they do have Aegon.

I agree quite a bit with what you're saying here. At this point, yes, it's unlikely that they are fundamentally changing how they are going about adapting the storyline. I guess my point was more speculation about how I would have preferred they approach the task of adapting these novels. Of course, this is with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I am curious about what others think about that though. Do most book readers simply want to see the strictest possible adaptation?

[Mingolla]

This is one of the reasons why I make the argument that the screen adapation of ASOIAF would be better if it departed from the source material more radically than it has to date. Some of the best television of all time has been made in the last decade or so. Just to name a few programs: The Sopranos, Deadwood, Breaking Bad, and Battlestar Galactica. What all of those programs have in common is that they are very deeply character driven; each of these shows has just a limited number of characters that the viewers get to know very, very well. As a viewer, there's little room for confusion about the relationship between characters, character motivations, etc. GoT, on the other hand, has a huge cast with multiple storylines competing for screentime. For bookreaders, this is fine. We get what's happening because we have this base of knowledge in our heads. But for the unsullied, I'm not sure how they follow it at times, especially since the backstory is largely untold.

I think one reason those programs worked as well as they did is that they were written for television. They don't suffer from the limitations of adapting someone else's source material. And so, when thinking about the idea of adapting ASOIAF, I think I would have approached it by asking this question: how would you tell this story if the books had never been written? But the approach D & D have taken, it seems to me, is to try and transcribe the books to the screen as closely as possible. Sure, they've changed up a few things here and there, but for the most part they've stayed pretty close to the main structure of the books. And they've done an okay job it for the most part. But, while GoT is good television, it isn't great. Not really. It could have been though. Maybe in 20 years or so, when the book series is long complete, someone will come up with a new adaptation that is more visionary.

I am not a book purist, your arguments seems logical, and i found myself agreeing with you but examples of shows you are using suggests it might not be good idea for D+D to departure too much. BSG collapsed badly at the end, it was my favorite show at that time, but after the finale i was so disgusted i never rewatched it and still feel depressed when i think about that final episode. Breaking Bad finale also was like badly written fanfiction compared to previous episodes.. Those failures could be avoided if writters had more time to really think about how to finish those shows. GRRM thinking about it for many many years. That is big benefit for quality of GoT overall story and its ending. If D+D will radically change direction of the show and it will become necessary for them to create their own ending, it could end up very badly. So i prefer if they keep their current method of keepiing major storyline points intact and just changing the way leading to them.

[Ser Eric]

I agree quite a bit with what you're saying here. At this point, yes, it's unlikely that they are fundamentally changing how they are going about adapting the storyline. I guess my point was more speculation about how I would have preferred they approach the task of adapting these novels. Of course, this is with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. I am curious about what others think about that though. Do most book readers simply want to see the strictest possible adaptation?

Speaking for myself, no. Adaptation is very difficult and especially so for ASOIAF. I don't expect a completely unaltered version of the books to be on screen.Small changes here and there and additions are fine by me as long as they add something to the story. I had no issues with them combining Willas and Garlan into Loras for instance or the exclusion of coldhands. But Arianne is not a small change, it's a huge change. I can't get behind a situation where everything that happens in the books (in Dorne) is removed and they completely invent a new imaginary plotline. That's unacceptable in my view. Too many characters is not a valid excuse when they've already cast 5 characters in Dorne and Arianne is more important than 4 of them. There is just no logic to it. Why not cut one or two of the sand snakes and have Arianne in if too many characters is an issue? I'd much rather see the relation between Arianne and Doran depicted on screen than have to sit through romantic nonsense that's not in the books.

For me, first and foremost GoT is an adaptation. D&D owe it to Martin to stick to the books wherever possible instead of trying to be too clever, something which they've been increasingly guilty of since Season 1.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

You were the one who started speculating that Aegon would fall for Elia, despite not having met yet. If that did happen why is it so much more of a stretch to consider Arianne simply accepting it?

They are not cutting down on the number of characters, in this case they are promoting far less important characters (in terms of the books) into presumably more prominent roles.

No, I did not speculate what Aegon would do. I just shared what others have speculated. And no, they are not promoting less important characters, they are definitely cutting down the number of people on the show while trying to still have all the important events happen. That means giving some acts to others, plain and simple. What I have said a few times now is that many people upset about Arianne and Sandsnakes are not considering that what will happen in book 6 might be heavily influencing who was cast or not. Focusing on what we have so far is to be expected but given the very limited amount of screen time left, D&D have to think ahead, i.e. books 6 & 7, in order to make the most efficient decisions for season 5, 6,& 7. The snakes seem to be set up to do more things that impact the plots than Arianne, who seems to be hooked only to Aegon, either as an advisor or a lover, both of which are probably easily cut since those roles are probably not critical. Also, it's not clear how Aegon will impact things either.

[cxvb]

But Arianne is not a small change, it's a huge change.

You don't know that. All Arianne has done so far is the Queenmaker plot and surely we can all agree that this is a side plot about as important as Coldhands.

I can't get behind a situation where everything that happens in the books (in Dorne) is removed and they completely invent a new imaginary plotline. That's unacceptable in my view. Too many characters is not a valid excuse when they've already cast 5 characters in Dorne and Arianne is more important than 4 of them. There is just no logic to it. Why not cut one or two of the sand snakes and have Arianne in if too many characters is an issue? I'd much rather see the relation between Arianne and Doran depicted on screen than have to sit through romantic nonsense that's not in the books.

Kindly get off your high horse. There are a lot of people involved with the show, none of them stupid. The reasoning, that they could have folded a sandsnake's plot into Arianne and thus have her plus 2 sandsnakes is not some genius masterplan that no one but you could conceive of. They certainly considered it. And, on the basis of them knowing lots, truckloads, more about what works for TV, what their ressources are, what the future plot developments are, etc. they eventually decided - most probably - to cut Arianne. We don't know, how close that decision was.

And yet here you are, ranting about "no logic", when all that's wrong is that the decision was made based on information you are not aware of. If you couldn't be aware that you're missing lots of necessary information I'd understand, but you know that you don't know enough.

And of course, once we have that missing information a good argument might be made, why the decision against Arianne was poor. We don't know yet either way. Until we do a bit of humility might be appropriate.

[Ser Eric]

You don't know that. All Arianne has done so far is the Queenmaker plot and surely we can all agree that this is a side plot about as important as Coldhands.

No, we cannot. In fact, it's nonsensical to even suggest so. Arianne is a PoV character, Arianne is the heir to Dorne. Colhands is a run of the mill character who will proabaly never appear again where as Arianne has at the very least 2 chapters in WoW that we know of and probably more that we don't know about. Arianne is also likely to play a part in Aegon's story line who is strong claimant to the throne. On the other hand we have Obara, who's task is to hunt down Darkstar, who has of course not been cast. So, if the Queenmaker plot is not very important side plot and Darkstar has not been cast then why do you need Obara? Hint - You don't unless you plan to invent a new storyline for her. It's not rocker science. Then of course, you have Trystanne, whose contribution in the books is limited playing (and losing) Cyvasse games. Even Quentyn manages to do more than him which says a lot.

We'll see what they churn out next season but unless Arianne drowns on her way to Storms End, she's going to be a far more importartant character than atleast Trys or Obara. Probably Tyene and Nym as well.

And regardless, the dynamic between Doran and Arianne is more interesting than a potential Trys-Myrcella romance.