R+L=J v.123

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Has there ever been an in depth discussion about the parallels between Alys Karstark and Lyanna Stark?

That would be a good one to have!

Yes, I'd like that, too. I remember having seen it mentioned here and there, but no work done on it.

[Han Snow]

Don't add that quote unless you're going to add the whole thing where Ned says that Robert loved her more than he did.

Please, oh please, oh please, do tell why and how Bob's "Can't keep it in his pants" Baratheon's love has any, any bearing at all on the actual sibling bond and genuine affection and love that Ned clearly and explicitly felt for his sister? How? Why does it matter? Even if you see Bob's infatuation as some kind of true and grand romantic love, what does it have to do with Ned's own, clearly genuine brotherly love?

And another question:

Are you actually stateofdisipation? It certainly would explain a lot. Though the way you construct your posts seem quite different when the trolling similarities are put aside.

[markg171]

My point was that if you're going to stretch Ned loved her with all his heart to justify lying to the whole world about dishonoring himself and his wife, you should acknowledge that Ned isn't the person in the series who actually loved Lyanna best. Because if Ned didn't love her best, then that limits just how far that you can say he would go for her.

[JonSnow4President]

My point was that if you're going to stretch Ned loved her with all his heart to justify lying to the whole world about dishonoring himself and his wife, you should acknowledge that Ned isn't the person in the series who actually loved Lyanna best. Because if Ned didn't love her best, then that limits just how far that you can say he would go for her.

Are you blind? Or are you only capable of reading half of posts? From the post you quoted.

i don't know that we necessarily need to add this right now, but as an extra point:

Cat thinks that whoever Jon Snow's mother was, Ned must have loved her fiercely and deeply. Yet the only two women Ned ever thinks about are Cat and Lyanna. And in Ned I, we are told that Ned loved his sister Lyanna with all his heart.

That is why no one gives a damn about Robert's (or Rhaegar's) love on this tiny nugget. Catelyn's thoughts are not about any Tom, Dick, or Harry loving Jon's mother, but specifically that Ned must have loved her fiercely. Coupled with Ned loving Lyanna with all his heart just 2 chapters early (IIRC), it's a potential (minor) clue.

The argument isn't that since Ned loved Lyanna, he justified "lying to the whole world about dishonoring himself and his wife." It's simply about tying those two small statements together.

[Ser Leftwich]

Quantifying love is a waste of time. Who loved Renly the most? Loras? Margaery? Stannis? Brienne? The line works because Ned says he loved Lyanna, it does not matter how much. In conjunction with the line from Cat, it works on a literary level.

Ah, but Ned only loved Lyanna with 97.2% of his heart and Robert did with 98%! So therefore, reasons!

[BearQueen87]

My point was that if you're going to stretch Ned loved her with all his heart to justify lying to the whole world about dishonoring himself and his wife, you should acknowledge that Ned isn't the person in the series who actually loved Lyanna best. Because if Ned didn't love her best, then that limits just how far that you can say he would go for her.

But it has nothing to do with proving RLJ, which is the point of the OP

And you'll note that, as JS4Prez, pointed out, we left out Rhaegar's love of Lyanna. It's about Ned, the secret, and his love for Lyanna.

And, one final thing...you last sentence. Nope nope nope. That's not true of human relations. The amount of love I have for someone and how far I would got for them is NOT dependent upon how much others love. Not even close. Robert loved Lyanna? That doesn't change, even the tiniest little bit, what Ned would do for his sister.

ETA:

Because by your logic the conversation went like this...

Lyanna: Promise me, Ned. Promise me that you'll take care of this baby boy I conceived with Prince Rhaegar.

Ned: I can't my dear sister. For you see, I love you, but Robert Baratheon loves you more. Therefore this limits what I can do for you in this time of need.

Do you see how that makes no sense?

[Ser Creighton]

Quantifying love is a waste of time. Who loved Renly the most? Loras? Margaery? Stannis? Brienne? The line works because Ned says he loved Lyanna, it does not matter how much. In conjunction with the line from Cat, it works on a literary level.

Ah, but Ned only loved Lyanna with 97.2% of his heart and Robert did with 98%! So therefore, reasons!

Didn't Ned also point out that Robert never really knew Lyanna?

[BearQueen87]

Didn't Ned also point out that Robert never really knew Lyanna?

Indeed. Robert saw her beauty but not the steal iron underneath. Ned' internal "Robert loved her more" is contradicted several chapters later when you realize that Robert only loved the Lyanna in his head.

ETA: thanks for getting the right quote Ser Leftwich!

[Ser Leftwich]

Didn't Ned also point out that Robert never really knew Lyanna?

Yes.

“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee.” - AGoT p.308

[Ser Creighton]

Yes.

“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee.” - AGoT p.308

Iron from Ice?

Anyway yeah that's about right and seems rather par for the corse for the POV's. Sometimes they realize things, gasp! I think there is another quote as well, that supports that one but don't remember. But yes that quote and the quote from the crypts kind of points out that it's up to the reader to sort of figure things out. That sometimes things change, like opinions, and sometimes you are confronted with reality, and sometimes a character can be wrong about something nd come to that realization.

[markg171]

It has everything to do with proving RLJ. Only mentioning that Ned loved her with all his heart is like writing a blank cheque. You're not limiting yourself on how far you can say Ned will go for Lyanna and can now justify any possible action of Ned's.

Acknowledging that Ned personally admits that he didn't love Lyanna as much as Robert did limits that. You can't suddenly justify every possible scenario as there's a cap now. Which is why so many of you are opposed to it.

Could Ned still have lied for all these years for Lyanna even though Robert loved her more than he did? Of course. But it's no longer the certainty that it is if you make it seem like Ned loved her the most out of everybody in the world.

[JonSnow4President]

It has everything to do with proving RLJ. Only mentioning that Ned loved her with all his heart is like writing a blank cheque. You're not limiting yourself on how far you can say Ned will go for Lyanna and can now justify any possible action of Ned's.

Acknowledging that Ned personally admits that he didn't love Lyanna as much as Robert did limits that. You can't suddenly justify every possible scenario as there's a cap now. Which is why so many of you are opposed to it.

Could Ned still have lied for all these years for Lyanna even though Robert loved her more than he did? Of course. But it's no longer the certainty that it is if you make it seem like Ned loved her the most out of everybody in the world.

None of that is what we're arguing though. It's simply pointing out "Ned must have loved Jon's mother fiercely" and "Ned loved Lyanna with all his heart" are a nice "coincidence."

Arguing against an invisible strawman doesn't endear us to you, I promise.

[BearQueen87]

It has everything to do with proving RLJ. Only mentioning that Ned loved her with all his heart is like writing a blank cheque. You're not limiting yourself on how far you can say Ned will go for Lyanna and can now justify any possible action of Ned's.

Acknowledging that Ned personally admits that he didn't love Lyanna as much as Robert did limits that. You can't suddenly justify every possible scenario as there's a cap now. Which is why so many of you are opposed to it.

Could Ned still have lied for all these years for Lyanna even though Robert loved her more than he did? Of course. But it's no longer the certainty that it is if you make it seem like Ned loved her the most out of everybody in the world.

But no one here is saying that Ned loved her the most out of everybody in the world. We even left Rhaegar out of that part of the OP because it has to do with Ned's love for Lyanna and the parallel writing GRRM did.

Ned One: Ned had loved Lyanna with all his heart.

Cat Two: Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely.

What we're saying is that Ned loved Lyanna so much--the mother of Jon--that he keeps many secrets. It has nothing to do with Robert because Robert's love for Lyanna, however it does manifest, does not limit what Ned is willing to do for his siter. That's not how human relationships work.

[RumHam]

It has everything to do with proving RLJ. Only mentioning that Ned loved her with all his heart is like writing a blank cheque. You're not limiting yourself on how far you can say Ned will go for Lyanna and can now justify any possible action of Ned's.

Acknowledging that Ned personally admits that he didn't love Lyanna as much as Robert did limits that. You can't suddenly justify every possible scenario as there's a cap now. Which is why so many of you are opposed to it.

Could Ned still have lied for all these years for Lyanna even though Robert loved her more than he did? Of course. But it's no longer the certainty that it is if you make it seem like Ned loved her the most out of everybody in the world.

This is amazing. and not in a good way.

Even if you somehow established that Ned flat out hated his sister, one could easily imagine him fulfilling "the promise" out of a Stannis like sense of honor and duty to his family.

[markg171]

None of that is what we're arguing though. It's simply pointing out "Ned must have loved Jon's mother fiercely" and "Ned loved Lyanna with all his heart" are a nice "coincidence."

Arguing against an invisible strawman doesn't endear us to you, I promise.

If you're just trying to link those specific two things together, that's one thing.

If you try and justify Ned saying he dishonoured himself and Catelyn and everything else, based solely off "Ned loved her with all his heart" that is a completely different thing when you don't acknowledge that it was possible to love Lyanna more.

[BearQueen87]

If you're just trying to link those specific two things together, that's one thing.

If you try and justify Ned saying he dishonoured himself and Catelyn and everything else, based solely off "Ned loved her with all his heart" that is a completely different thing when you don't acknowledge that it was possible to love Lyanna more.

*sigh*

This is now becoming frustrating. Robert loving Lyanna more or less than Ned (or even just DIFFERENTLY) has nothing to do with what Ned would or wold not do for Lyanna. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Ned did not stop and say, 'I can't do what you want Lyanna because there is another person who loves you more."

[The Twinslayer]

Good point, but I doubt the septon could have stirred up so much controversy if it wasn't already an issue you know? Also we know it was a problem for the faith from that SSM about defying convention, the Faith, and the other lords.

Jon's own thoughts give us a further clue to this. After he sleeps with Ygritte, Jon thinks about the fact that Ned "forgot his marriage vows" to Catelyn when Ned slept with Jon's mother. Since we know Ned and Cat were married in a Sept, this tells us that the Faith's marriage vows required fidelity.

That is a pretty good explanation for the fact that Maegor could not find a septon who would preside over a second marriage for him --because the septon could not be a party to the breach of the marriage vows to Maegor's first wife. The same logic would apply if Rhaegar asked a septon to preside over a polygamous marriage to Lyanna. The septon would have to refuse.

I did once say that I thought Jaehaerys may have done it as part of his bargain with the Faith. This was before I had access to the entire worldbook. Now that we know he was the one who actually established a code of law for the Seven Kingdoms ('cept Dorne. ((Hey maybe polygamy is legal in Dorne and Rhaegar and Lyanna got married down there!))) I think that's a more likely reason for him to have done it.

I think that when Jaehaerys made his bargain and swore to defend the Faith, he told the High Septon that he was going to prepare a new code of laws and promised that the new code would outlaw polygamy. So the settlement with the Faith came first, and included the promise of a ban on polygamy, but the actual ban waited until the full code was put into place. (As when Robb Stark promised to marry a Frey and got Walder's support but the plan was for the actual marriage to come later).

[BearQueen87]

Jon's own thoughts give us a further clue to this. After he sleeps with Ygritte, Jon thinks about the fact that Ned "forgot his marriage vows" to Catelyn when Ned slept with Jon's mother. Since we know Ned and Cat were married in a Sept, this tells us that the Faith's marriage vows required fidelity.

And in your experience of reading this series does required fidelity always mean fidelity is adhered to?

That is a pretty good explanation for the fact that Maegor could not find a septon who would preside over a second marriage for him --because the septon could not be a party to the breach of the marriage vows to Maegor's first wife. The same logic would apply if Rhaegar asked a septon to preside over a polygamous marriage to Lyanna. The septon would have to refuse.

Thankfully, if that were true, there are other religions in Westeros that do not require a septon.

[The Twinslayer]

And in your experience of reading this series does required fidelity always mean fidelity is adhered to?

No. But it is one thing to stand silent while the king takes a mistress. It is something very different to actively participate in the beach of the vows by blessing a polygamous marriage.

[markg171]

This is amazing. and not in a good way.

Even if you somehow established that Ned flat out hated his sister, one could easily imagine him fulfilling "the promise" out of a Stannis like sense of honor and duty to his family.

The problem is though, is that there seems to be multiple promises. One seems to be about being buried in Winterfell. One seems to be about Rhaegar being dead. One of them causes Ned to immediately comment that he thinks he's going mad. The promise issue, isn't as clear cut and dry as is portrayed on here.

That aside, the point though was that when you only say that Ned loved her with all of his heart, you can argue anything as a certainty that Ned would have done all he could because he loved her with all his heart. When you acknowledge that it was possible to love her even more, that's no longer a certainty that he would have agreed to anything and would have gone to any lengths for her. It becomes a possibility. And there's a huge difference between a possibility and a certainty.