Who do you think will be the 13 POV characters at the start of WINDS?

[Ser Alex Dayne]

I don't see how that can possibly be correct. I can see Bran not getting a POV, but we need at least 1 POV at the wall, so Mel or Ghost, and preferably both. We also need a POV in Kings Landing so that is Cersei. Either Jaime or Brienne need a POV to resolve that plotline but we at least need 1 of them. Then there is Areo, Dany, and Sam. All in all I don't see how it could possibly be done with less than 14 and frankly I think we would be missing out if we did not have at least 17. We know Theon has a pov so we could potentially see Asha get killed.

Are you sure he did not say at the end of Winds, so he is telling us how many POV's we are going to loose?

No he stated that there will be 13 POV's at the start of winds and that number will decrease by the end of winds but that doesn't mean we still can't see these POV's for example lets say by 1/3 of the way through winds we lose 3 POV's and than gain a cersie point of view then later we lose 2 more POV's adn than gain a bran chapter than we lose 1 POV and gain a brienne and sam chapter and so on and so forth so that by the end of winds the number has decreased from 13 like george said but we still got the necessary POV's and players

[ChillyPolly]

No he stated that there will be 13 POV's at the start of winds and that number will decrease by the end of winds but that doesn't mean we still can't see these POV's for example lets say by 1/3 of the way through winds we lose 3 POV's and than gain a cersie point of view then later we lose 2 more POV's adn than gain a bran chapter than we lose 1 POV and gain a brienne and sam chapter and so on and so forth so that by the end of winds the number has decreased from 13 like george said but we still got the necessary POV's and players

He said 13 POVs. Then added that there would be fewer by the end. You are interpreting that as "13 povs at one time". But that makes no sense, as the story never gives us povs jumbled together. They are always one at a time. The only way to make sense of his statement is that the book has 13 povs, but some of them will be eliminated by the end of the story (by death or whatever).

I don't agree with your theory that 13 povs really means 17 povs. If he is going to have any hope of finishing the series, he is going to have to regain a certain level of focus. And he knows this. I cannot understand why so many people are rooting against him on this.

[Ser Alex Dayne]

He said 13 POVs. Then added that there would be fewer by the end. You are interpreting that as "13 povs at one time". But that makes no sense, as the story never gives us povs jumbled together. They are always one at a time. The only way to make sense of his statement is that the book has 13 povs, but some of them will be eliminated by the end of the story (by death or whatever).

I don't agree with your theory that 13 povs really means 17 povs. If he is going to have any hope of finishing the series, he is going to have to regain a certain level of focus. And he knows this. I cannot understand why so many people are rooting against him on this.

no you mistook my comment so i'll make it clearer he states that he will start with 13 POV's and will end with fewer than that so lets say he has 13 POV's and by the end he kills of 8 so thats 5 POV's left but as the book continues he adds some here and there so let's say he adds 4 more POV's as the book continues than he still ended with fewer than 13 and there wasn't 13 POV's at any one time aside from the beginning

hope that cleared it up I didn't mean to complicate my original post that's my bad

[ChillyPolly]

no you mistook my comment so i'll make it clearer he states that he will start with 13 POV's and will end with fewer than that so lets say he has 13 POV's and by the end he kills of 8 so thats 5 POV's left but as the book continues he adds some here and there so let's say he adds 4 more POV's as the book continues than he still ended with fewer than 13 and there wasn't 13 POV's at any one time aside from the beginning

hope that cleared it up I didn't mean to complicate my original post that's my bad

No I understood you fine. I just disagree. I think 13 POVs is the total for the entire book, as currently planned, making the next book (hopefully) more focused than the last one (which had 16 POVs). However, by the end he will have eliminated a few, such that he hopes to start Book 7 with fewer than 13 POVs.remaining, and a level of focus equivalent to the first 3 volumes of the series.

You're hoping for 17 povs in total, and I hope you don't get what you want.;

[Ser Alex Dayne]

No I understood you fine. I just disagree. I think 13 POVs is the total for the entire book, as currently planned, making the next book (hopefully) more focused than the last one (which had 16 POVs). However, by the end he will have eliminated a few, such that he hopes to start Book 7 with fewer than 13 POVs.remaining, and a level of focus equivalent to the first 3 volumes of the series.

You're hoping for 17 povs in total, and I hope you don't get what you want.;

I don't necessarily want it like that as much as I do believe that it is a possible outcome, i'm personally fine with however GRRM decides he wants to do it

[Alysanne Donnelly]

1. Danaerys

Sam

Jaime/Brienne

Bran

Cersei

Most definitely Danaerys, Sam, and Cersei. Jaime and/or Brienne so that we can finish the Lady Stoneheart plot, but GRRM might be economical and only use one POV. Bran is needed for the Greenseer/Others plot...

I would find Nymeria Sand to be interesting, and she could give us a unique view into KL's political climate. Willas Tyrell would be interesting as well and we might actually learn something about the Reach and Highgarden.

[Logicsbane]

GRRM has said there will be 13 POVs at the start of WINDS (note, he may change his mind). Who do you think the 13 POV characters will be in WINDS?

These are the first 8 confirmed characters:

1. Aeron Greyjoy

2. Sansa Stark

3. Arya Stark

4. Arianne Martell

5. Theon Greyjoy

6. Barristan Selmy

7. Tyrion Lannister

8. Victarion Greyjoy

Who do you think the remaining 5 characters will be and why?

My thoughts:

9. Daenerys (GRRM has said he was writing about the Dothraki, it’s likely it will be from Dany’s perspective, also I doubt he won’t resolve Dany’s cliffhanger in all of WINDS

10. Jon Snow (GRRM has hinted in interviews that he is still alive)

11. Bran (GRRM said on his blog that there is a chance that we will see Bran in WINDS, this will most likely be through his own POV)

12. Samwell Tarly (he’s a the citadel and will learn a lot of cool stuff, I think)

13. Davos Seaworth (he will search for Rickon Stark. GRRM said he had some cool stuff for Osha, we will most likely see that through Davos’ POV).

However it bothers me that I have no one at Kings' Landing. I hope Tyene or Nymeria will have a POV.

What do you guys think :)

I think you nailed it...but I think if I were to make a single change it would be to swap out John Snow with Cercei Lannister. I have a feeling that John Snow's fate will be revealed at some point early, and through Davos, Theon, and perhaps one or more of Sansa, Arya or Bran's POV's, the build up for his return will occur. Seriously, with the gazillion questions that need answered in regards to Brienne, Jaime , Stoneheart, Aegon ect , I find it hard to believe it can be done with just 13 POV's.

[brown ben romney]

Definites

9: Jon Snow/Mel - only one pov needed at the wall but no way is jon dead, and i dont think the wall will sit out

10: Daenarys - same reasons as in OP and original pov character from AGOT with no povs in area,

11: Bran - same reasons as in OP, and same reasons as daenarys

12: Sam - too much happening near him (the citadel, ironborn, the tyrells, especially sam reuniting with his family has to be in his POV), other povs in area more likely to lose POV status (JonCon, even cersei imo)

Probables but can think of reasons whyd they sit out/lose pov status

13: Davos - I can see him converging with other plotlines, especially theon's or maybe the wall,

14: Cersei - Cleganebowl at beginning and hound wins or JonCon and Arianne take King's Landing quickly and/or she retreats from KL and converges with another POV, maybe sam

15: Jaime/Brienne - I could see GRRM pulling a Theon with these two, we maybe get an update like we did in ASOS with Theon through Roose Bolton but if he keeps a plotline a mystery through the whole book or until the end i think he'd do it with these two not with the wall or bran or daenarys or somebody. Or they both converge with another POV (timewise it's been awhile between Jaime's last chapter and Kevan's epilogue) and also there's no way we get both if 13 povs is even close to accurate

Likely to lose POV status

16: JonCon - can converge with Arianne, Cersei, even Sam maybe, not that important a character

17: Asha - converged with Theon, not that important a character,

18: Areo - can converge with Sam, not that important a character

I also think that it's much more likely GRRM either misremembered number of POV's (he said "i think" 13 IIRC), was forgetting or not counting smaller character(s) like Aeron, Vic or Barristan who may die early on, before other POVs get reintroduced, or that some POVs don't come back until later in the book than we lose anyone in my top 15. I also think it's a possibility GRRM decided to cut the aeron chapter he was originally going to read when people wanted arianne instead but not a likely one. I'd probably place Aeron somewhere in my probables. Also, even though both Jaime and Cersei aren't in my top 13 there's no way BOTH of them lose pov status in winds, and i think its much more likely both of them continue their POVs and 13 povs is wrong.

[Bastetcat]

GRRM has said there will be 13 POVs at the start of WINDS (note, he may change his mind). Who do you think the 13 POV characters will be in WINDS?

 

These are the first 8 confirmed characters:

1. Aeron Greyjoy

2. Sansa Stark

3. Arya Stark

4. Arianne Martell

5. Theon Greyjoy

6. Barristan Selmy

7. Tyrion Lannister

8. Victarion Greyjoy

 

Who do you think the remaining 5 characters will be and why?

My thoughts:

 

9. Daenerys (GRRM has said he was writing about the Dothraki, it’s likely it will be from Dany’s perspective, also I doubt he won’t resolve Dany’s cliffhanger in all of WINDS

10. Jon Snow (GRRM has hinted in interviews that he is still alive)

11. Bran (GRRM said on his blog that there is a chance that we will see Bran in WINDS, this will most likely be through his own POV)

12. Samwell Tarly (he’s a the citadel and will learn a lot of cool stuff, I think)

13. Davos Seaworth (he will search for Rickon Stark. GRRM said he had some cool stuff for Osha, we will most likely see that through Davos’ POV).

 

However it bothers me that I have no one at Kings' Landing. I hope Tyene or Nymeria will have a POV.

 

What do you guys think :)

 

 

 

My prediction: the Winds of Winter POV-s, and what will we see through them.

 

(Bold= confirmed POVs)
 

1. Barristan Selmy - Mereen - he will die soon (see TV show).

2. Sansa Stark - Vale, political play, entering northern policy and/or southern policy (Dorne-Aegon)

3. Arya Stark - will continue learning, then flee to Westeros - after the news: "Jon is murdered". I don't see any other reason for her to go. If this news don't make her leave then nothing will. Then she will start her revenge mission - now with the knowlidge how to do so.

4. Arianne Martell - will marry Aegon, sitting on the throne, then get the info - Aegon if fake. Big fail on her mission, then dies. This happen after Cercei's trial. (Euron/Victarion could sit on the IT after her)

5. Aeron Greyjoy - working against Euron. Contact Asha and Theon. Maybe some real kraken awakening? That would be cool.

6. Cercei Lannister- win the trial, but losing the children to Dorne -> Mircella dies in Dorne, Tommen when Aegon and Arianne go to Kings Landing? She is the only POV from KL.

7. Jamie Lannister -  Riverlands, Frays and BWB, LS. Northern conspiracy on the riverlands.

8. Tyrion Lannister - Mareen, advising Dany. Conflict with the Iron fleet, Victarion, and even dragon problems. He will be busy. We will see Dany thought his eyes. So no need a Dany POV. (She will be in the last book)

9. Davos - Rickon and the north in general, small folk. His POV could end with meeting Theon at WF. Also the wall, is he heads that way with Rickon. So no need a Jon POV (next book, like Dany)

10. Theon Greyjoy  -  Stannis's army, the battle of Winterfell, death/end of Stannis, meating with Davos, Rickon, and everyone in Winterfell. Northern conspiracy in the north.

11. Bran – far north, CotF, others.

12 Victarion Greyjoy – Battle at Mereen, killing Barristan, and Hizdar, maybe.

13. Sam – Oldtown. He could discover a lot about the measters, the faceless man, the Dorne-conspiracy (Alleras).

 

Ps: forgive me if there are mistakes, my English is rusty.

Edit:spelling.

[Tixu Oty]

I decided to revive this thread

Thanks ChillyPolly for finding the actual source for the 13 POV thing! I had been wondering where that came from but couldn't find it.

On 5/6/2015 at 6:49 PM, ChillyPolly said:

We don't have his exact words in English. His words translated into French, can be found here:

http://webplus.imatin.net/tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/106194_george-r-r-martin-quot-j-aime-tuer-mes-personnages-quot

> Je jongle. Dans le tome 1, l'histoire est racontée à travers

> sept points de vue différents. Dans le tome 6, il y en a

> treize, je crois. En tout cas, au début du livre. Mais, à la

> fin, le nombre diminue.

So it's pretty clear (I'm French) that the book starts with aproximately 13 POVs but that this number diminishes by the end. The comparison with book 1 makes it clear it means some POV characters will die - as in for good, not just that we won't see the story from their perspective anymore or that they will be undead.
 Also, as others have pointed out, when GRRM talks about POVs he means the total number of POVs, prologue (and potential epilogue) not included. The fact that he got the number of POVs of book 1 wrong here doesn't mean anything. He's just being vague and misremembering. So anybody who thinks 13 by the beginning and less by the end means some dying POVs will be replaced with other ones around the middle of Winds are deluded imo. This is not how it works. It's a total number per book. Diminishing just means dead characters won't be back to tell their stories in Dream of Spring...

I actually like that idea of less POVs, and I can live with the fact that some characters who used to be POVs will probably have their story reported more or less indirectly through other POVs from now on. We don't know what GRRM has in mind and just because we got so used to following such or such character around, doesn't mean their POVs is essential to the story. It's actually one of the things I love in ASOIAF that information is relayed through great distances and often distorted in the process. I like waiting to hear from Davos and Brienne and learning about them from Cersei, but still having to wait to figure out what really happened or just pick up more pieces of the puzzle from even more POVs.

And the number 13 is clearly just an estimate because GRRM is unsure exactly how many he's got. I'm not sure I believe that but that's what he says. Anyways, the number is bound to be an estimate because the book is not finished and GRRM is used to changing his mind all the time, rewriting stuff and moving things around all the time. But since that's the number we got for now, that's what I going to try to work with.

That being said, here's what I think we might get.

Those that are definitely in (confirmed from sample chapters) :

• 1 Sansa
• 2 Arya
• 3 Theon
• 4 Aeron
• 5 Barristan
• 6 Tyrion
• 7 Victarion
• 8 Arianne

Those that could or should be in, in order of decreasing likelyhood (imo) :

• 9 Dany : because she was a main POV from the beginning and she's clearly important
• 10 Cersei : she's become our eye into King's Landing and her arc seems pretty important
• 11 Bran : he's gotta be in! And he's a aGoT POV. The very first one actually, that's gotta count for something! Plus Bran can now probably report events from lots of other areas, especially anything Rickon or Jon connected (if Davos and Jon don't get POVs). However, it could totally be the other way around and we might only hear from Bran through the POV's of other. We've already have plenty of occurences for this (and it's pretty awesome) : Jon, Arya and Theon. Hopefully Sansa's next. So my guess is IF Bran is not in, then either Jon or Davos is. But I'm betting on Bran.
• 12 Sam :  I want him to be in! He needs to tell us about Euron, about all the cool books in the Citadel, and give us an idea of what the Faceless Men are up to. Plus cool Sand Snake buddy.
• 13 Jaime or Brienne : I think one of those really should be in, but I'm pretty sure it won't be both of them, because, they're at the same location and one or both of them may die soon. But I feel that at least one will survive and have an important story to tell. And right now we got no one else to tell us what's going on in the Riverlands except from Arya who gets only fragments. I'm rooting for Brienne because of her Dunk connection, but it could just as well be Jaime.

Those I think will not make the cut, in order of decreasing likelyhood, unless GRRM does write more than 13 POVs :

• 14 Davos : He's been in since book 2 and I do want him in but since he's probably going to stay in the North and join the GNC in the foreseeable future, we might very well hear from him from other POVs, most likely Bran or Theon (more or less directly), but also Sansa or Cersei (indirectly). Or Jon if he's in.
• 15 Jon : it seems weird to imagine Winds withouth Jon but I can totally see it. He's undead like Cat. Plus he's probably on his way to becoming a king of some sort, and kings tend to not get POVs. For the time being, other POVs can report his story, indirectly for now, but I'll bet he'll soon meet up with other characters, possibly Theon, or Sansa.
• 16 Jaime or Brienne.
• 17 Asha : other POVs can take over (Theon and Aeron)
• 18 Areo Hotah : the main of the Sand Snake action is no longer going to be in Dorne so we probably don't need him anymore just now. Some have argued about the remaining DarkStar plot though, but I don't really remember what that was about. Obara was sent after him right? But can't we hear news from Arianne who would learn things via raven? Or even from Cersei if things ripple as far as King's Landing.
• 19 Jon Connington : Arianne can take over his narrative.
• 20 Melisandre : I think we may not get more POVs from her. The one in Dance was useful so we could finally start understanding her, but that's done now.
• 21 Quentyn : out.

But what's probably even more interresting would be to try to guess which of those will no longer be POVs (as in dead) by the end of Winds

[Endymion I Targaryen]

The 8 confirmed POVs are known.When releasing Arianne II,GRRM said that Areo Hotah will continue as a POV character.Some time later, in Balticon he confirmed working on a Cersei chapter.So:

9.Cersei 

10.Areo (probably)

That means plotlines will be set aside?

[Veltigar]

He's definitely going to write more than 13. We already have ten confirmed PoV's and these do not include the following eleven:

Jaime

Brienne

Samwell

Jon

Dany

Bran

Davos

Joncon

Melissandre

Asha

Areo

Probably going to need a different epilogue and prologue character. 

Some of these might not feature (e.g. Jon might stay out of the fray and GRRM might choose to sacrifice one of the aformentioned PoV's in a prologue or epilogue), but we're deluding ourselves if we say that he isn't going to feature the majority of these characters.

Granted, most of the PoV's above will be minor (e.g. Joncon and Arianne might have fewer PoV's than usual because they are seemingly going to spend a lot of time in the same place, same for Asha and Theon, etc. and some of the characters say for example Areo might bite it early). I believe PoV characterwise this is going to be a slaughterhouse 

[Ser Creighton]

3 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

He's definitely going to write more than 13. We already have ten confirmed PoV's and these do not include the following eleven:

Jaime

Brienne

Samwell

Jon

Dany

Bran

Davos

Joncon

Melissandre

Asha

Areo

Probably going to need a different epilogue and prologue character. 

Some of these might not feature (e.g. Jon might stay out of the fray and GRRM might choose to sacrifice one of the aformentioned PoV's in a prologue or epilogue), but we're deluding ourselves if we say that he isn't going to feature the majority of these characters.

Granted, most of the PoV's above will be minor (e.g. Joncon and Arianne might have fewer PoV's than usual because they are seemingly going to spend a lot of time in the same place, same for Asha and Theon, etc. and some of the characters say for example Areo might bite it early). I believe PoV characterwise this is going to be a slaughterhouse 

You know you just need 5 more years and two books instead of one, A feast for Dragons, and Winds of Winter. Then you can get on to A dream of spring. Which will end up being 3 books and 2 novellas.

[Veltigar]

1 minute ago, Ser Creighton said:

You know you just need 5 more years and two books instead of one, A feast for Dragons, and Winds of Winter. Then you can get on to A dream of spring. Which will end up being 3 books and 2 novellas.

If that's what GRRM needs to tell his vision, than I'll grudgingly wait for it. Don't get me wrong, I'd like a perfect tWoW delivered into my hands tomorrow, but if GRRM needs more pages to make it work, than so be it  

[Ser Creighton]

Just now, Veltigar said:

If that's what GRRM needs to tell his vision, than I'll grudgingly wait for it. Don't get me wrong, I'd like a perfect tWoW delivered into my hands tomorrow, but if GRRM needs more pages to make it work, than so be it  

Oh it will end up being whatever it ends up being. I just look at all those POV's and shake my head. So many moving pieces, and most require a decent amount of chapters, Dany has a long way to go and a lot to do, Davos? Asha and Theon need to keep an eye on Stannis, Joncon needs to fill us in on Aegon, Bran and Sam clearly need time, Jaime and Brie, Aero could go relatively quickly. Cersei was not confirmed as far as I know, but you know she is going to get face time. Tyrion always gets face time, Arya will get a decent amount.

Will see, he has a lot to do and I will leave it at that.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

5 hours ago, Ser Creighton said:

 Cersei was not confirmed as far as I know, but you know she is going to get face time. 

GRRM said in Balticon that before he left he was working on a Cersei chapter.she is confirmed.

[Arrow of the Morning]

43 minutes ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

GRRM said in Balticon that before he left he was working on a Cersei chapter.she is confirmed.

Do you have the source?

[sifth]

There's just too many characters for the 13 rule to stick. Who knows how many will be in the final book. I do know that Hotah was recently confirmed on GRRM's not blog a few months ago.

[Arrow of the Morning]

6 hours ago, Veltigar said:

He's definitely going to write more than 13. We already have ten confirmed PoV's and these do not include the following eleven:

[skip]

Probably going to need a different epilogue and prologue character. 

Some of these might not feature (e.g. Jon might stay out of the fray and GRRM might choose to sacrifice one of the aformentioned PoV's in a prologue or epilogue), but we're deluding ourselves if we say that he isn't going to feature the majority of these characters.

Granted, most of the PoV's above will be minor (e.g. Joncon and Arianne might have fewer PoV's than usual because they are seemingly going to spend a lot of time in the same place, same for Asha and Theon, etc. and some of the characters say for example Areo might bite it early). I believe PoV characterwise this is going to be a slaughterhouse 

Probably we will have more than 13 POVs. It all depends of the chapters of Dance that were cut and put in WoW. All samples we had until now were supposed to be in Dance and if some of them die in them, they would not have been in Winds.

I think the POVs will change after the beginning (end of DwD as planned by George) and the rest of the book. I think we will have 13 POVs through out most of the book, but (as George said) less than 13 will make it at the end of the book alive.

[Ser Creighton]

4 hours ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

GRRM said in Balticon that before he left he was working on a Cersei chapter.she is confirmed.

Kind of figured our only KL POV would be in the book.

3 hours ago, sifth said:

There's just too many characters for the 13 rule to stick. Who knows how many will be in the final book. I do know that Hotah was recently confirmed on GRRM's not blog a few months ago.

13 for the last book is possible, but not Winds. It's at about what 20-21. That is 3-4 chapters apiece, but you know certain characters are only getting 1-2. Hotah, Selmy, Mel (Though she could get a little more given Jon's status as umm stunned?), Bran will not get a ton, he gives to much away but at least a 3 I would guess, JonCon is going to get a few, he does have the chapters, for all of them. But it's pretty clear you could see Selmy, Hotah, maybe Vic, JonCon and others going away in this book. Arya, Dany, Tyrion, probably Jon, are going to get their chapters. Then Sansa, and Cersei will get a good amount, and Bran, Davos, Jaime, Brie, Theon and Asha, will get some, but as pointed out some of these characters can split POV's because of proximity. I would say Tyrion but it's Tyrion, he lives in Martins head and tells him what to do, "I said more plot armor fat man, and I want a Dragon. Or do you want to spend another night awake listening to me sing Billy don't be a hero?"