Nemesis Games by James SA Corey [SPOILERS]

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

HBH,

Hence, I think the perspective is an interesting choice but it necessarily toned down the emotional impact of seeing what happened to Earth through his eyes. Amos appears to be perfectly amoral. His only concern is survival. He uses Holden as his moral touchstone and goes with it.

[Happy Ent]

HBH,

Hence, I think the perspective is an interesting choice but it necessarily toned down the emotional impact of seeing what happened to Earth through his eyes. Amos appears to be perfectly amoral. His only concern is survival. He uses Holden as his moral touchstone and goes with it.

 

And even [i]then[/i], what we saw through his emotionally stunted eyes was very, very harmless. No raving mobs. The atmosphere on the island (where they eventually lifted off of) felt very relaxed, given that everybody’s lives depended on what happened.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

HE,

Amos does note that the calm would pass as people figured out there was no fix and no escape.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

A couple of things on Amos.  I actually think he has one of the stronger moral compasses in the series.  He knows that he lacks a normal moral compass (because of his past), but  actually tries harder than anyone else to make sure that he is in fact acting socially.  He uses Holden, who also lacks a normal moral compass (Holden tends to think of the world in black and white - that's why the series needs Avansarala - someone who operates in shades of grey) as a proxy, but interestingly it doesn't always lead him to doing the right thing because Holden, who can frankly be quite short sighted in his pursuit of "justice", doesn't always do the morally right thing. 

 

I thought it was completely realistic that Amos' reaction to the horror of the asteroid hits wasn't to break down, but rather to work with what he had to get the best result for his tribe.  Amos is absolutely right that we are community based creatures, and I agree with someone upthread - the numbers they were talking about were so enormous that really it's only possible to comprehend the tragedy in terms of how it affects one's own personal community.  AT that point, Amos' community was pretty much Clarissa, so he acted accordingly and within that morality.

[Howdyphillip]

HBH,

Hence, I think the perspective is an interesting choice but it necessarily toned down the emotional impact of seeing what happened to Earth through his eyes. Amos appears to be perfectly amoral. His only concern is survival. He uses Holden as his moral touchstone and goes with it.

I am going to argue here about the character of Amos. I don't find him to be psychopathic or amoral. I actually think that he is the moral center of the group. I understand that this might seem on the surface counter intuitive because he himself questions his morality. He even states that the reason he is lead by Holden is because Holden acts as the conscience that he doesn't have. 

 

Let's examine the facts though. Amos has always been shown to be of strong moral character. In this book alone, he places himself in harms way to help a family that is being persecuted during his travel from Earth. He also is usually the first to forgive, and recognizes when others are making internal changes as evidenced by his friendship with Clarissa. (Who is my favorite character by the way.) He also constantly acts as a protector for other members of his crew, and he does this several times at the risk of losing his life.

 

 I personally believe that Amos grew up hard, and was forced to make amoral decisions in order to survive. He clearly knows when he crosses the line of his morality. This in and of itself precludes him from being a psychopath, A psychopath doesn't consider things in terms of right and wrong. He is also dreadfully afraid of making wrong choices, so he allies himself with people he believes are trying to do the right thing. These are not choices that are made by amoral people.

 

I personally can not wait until Daniel and Ty write him in a situation where Holden is standing in conflict with his morals. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

HP,

But in the Amos POV the reason he's kind to the family is not because he thinks it's the right thing to do but because he thinks it's what Holden would do. What is scary to me about Amos is that we don't know precisely why he's latched on to Holden. Yes, he's making choices that are essentially moral and that help others but he's doing this, not because of his own internal moral compass but because he thinks, "that's what the Capitan would do". He doesn't care deeply and importantly himself. That's why I say Amos' internal voice appears to be amoral, because he needs to think "what would Holden do" before he can make a moral choice.


What happens on the day he decides it is no longer smart or best for him to follow Holden?

[Howdyphillip]

HP,

But in the Amos POV the reason he's kind to the family is not because he thinks it's the right thing to do but because he thinks it's what Holden would do. What is scary to me about Amos is that we don't know precisely why he's latched on to Holden. Yes, he's making choices that are essentially moral and that help others but he's doing this, not because of his own internal moral compass but because he thinks, "that's what the Capitan would do". He doesn't care deeply and importantly himself. That's why I say Amos' internal voice appears to be amoral, because he needs to think "what would Holden do" before he can make a moral choice.


What happens on the day he decides it is no longer smart or best for him to follow Holden?

 Here are my thoughts about this. Amos obviously suffers guilt for the actions that he has taken during his lifetime. If he didn't, then there would be no need to try and find his moral compass externally. The feelings of guilt in and of themselves prove that he is capable of feelings and empathy. The fact that he forms real bonds with others also solidifies to me that we aren't dealing with a psychopath.

 

 Lets examine the example that you just gave. He does the right thing for the family because he tells himself that is what Holden would do. In reality, Holden isn't there. Holden is a completely different person with completely different motivations. It is very possible, and even probable, that the decision that Holden would have made about the thugs would have been vastly different than what Amos decided to do. Holden very well could have decided that placing himself at risk to aid the family would jeopardize his safety, and in turn the safety of Naomi and the rest of the crew as well. This wouldn't be outside the lines with the rest of the narrative as we have often seen Holden making decisions to aid his crew in lieu of aiding the overall  good of humanity.

 

 So we now have established that it is not Holden's moral code that guides Amos, but it is his own. Amos thinks of himself as a "bad" person because he has lived a hard life and has been forced to make hard decisions. Many of these decisions violate what he believes about right and wrong. Since he believes this way, he has told himself that in order for him to stop doing "bad" things, he must adopt and emulate what he thinks Holden would do. In reality, what he thinks of as the "good" decisions Holden would make are in actuality his own ideas of morality.

 

 With that said, there are strong arguments to be made that his morality is actually the strongest and most uncompromising of the entire crew. Almost all of the crew at one point or another have displayed altruistic actions, but Amos does so on the most regular basis. He constantly puts himself on the front line to protect people. He regularly puts the needs and desires of others ahead of his own, and although he doesn't think of himself this way in the least, he is probably the biggest hero of the group.

 

I personally believe that the better question than What happens on the day he decides it is no longer smart or best for him to follow Holden is What happens on the day that Holden makes a decision that Amos truly believes to be wrong?

[mormont]

I am going to argue here about the character of Amos. I don't find him to be psychopathic or amoral. I actually think that he is the moral center of the group. I understand that this might seem on the surface counter intuitive because he himself questions his morality. He even states that the reason he is lead by Holden is because Holden acts as the conscience that he doesn't have. 
 
Let's examine the facts though. Amos has always been shown to be of strong moral character. In this book alone, he places himself in harms way to help a family that is being persecuted during his travel from Earth.

 

True, but there's a strong suggestion that on that occasion (and some others - the incident with the kid prostitute comes to mind), Amos is using the situation as a socially-acceptable excuse to get involved in a confrontation that might lead to violence, or at least a chance to intimidate people, for less than altruistic reasons.

 

Of course, the fact that Amos feels he needs such an excuse indicates that he's got some sort of moral conscience. Still, it's interesting that on a couple of occasions Amos seems to have difficulty understanding or even recognising his own emotions. I feel he's deliberately written to suggest a degree of emotional disconnect or emotional illiteracy: he doesn't really understand sometimes why he does what he does. I think that probably applies to why he follows Holden. Amos himself likely isn't really sure.

[HairBearHero]

I'd say Amos has a very strong moral code of his own that's been formed as a result of his experiences (hence the hair-trigger violence when children are threatened/harmed and extremely protective attitude towards his "family"), but he's smart enough to be aware that his own moral code and society's moral code are barely overlapping - it's doing the socially acceptable thing he struggles with and that's why he uses Holden as a guideline. 

 

He's a fairly strong example of a human with orange/blue morality (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality)

[Howdyphillip]

 

True, but there's a strong suggestion that on that occasion (and some others - the incident with the kid prostitute comes to mind), Amos is using the situation as a socially-acceptable excuse to get involved in a confrontation that might lead to violence, or at least a chance to intimidate people, for less than altruistic reasons.

 

Of course, the fact that Amos feels he needs such an excuse indicates that he's got some sort of moral conscience. Still, it's interesting that on a couple of occasions Amos seems to have difficulty understanding or even recognising his own emotions. I feel he's deliberately written to suggest a degree of emotional disconnect or emotional illiteracy: he doesn't really understand sometimes why he does what he does. I think that probably applies to why he follows Holden. Amos himself likely isn't really sure.

I can see nothing at all to disagree with here. Certainly Amos is written as someone that has trouble understanding his emotions. I would say that he is in no way disconnected from them though. 

 

I do have a question. Are people here equating the predisposition to violence that Amos obviously has with a lack of morality? I personally believe that these are two separate things. Most of violent behavior that he has displayed first hand in the series doesn't seem to be breaking his moral code. This is not to say he is incapable of going against it, as it is highly suggested that in his back story he quite often did just that. I think that he has a very clear line of what he believes is right and wrong though.

[karaddin]

Has everyone discussing Amos read The Churn? Because I think if some are arguing from the position of having read it and others not it casts the character in a different light

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Karaddin,

What is "The Churn"?

[Xray the Enforcer]

A novella set in the Expanse universe that involves Amos. And I agree with Karaddin: one will likely have a very different take on Amos depending on if one has read that novella. (I have. It was great.)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Xray,

Where is it available. Is it in an anthology?

[Xray the Enforcer]

No. Standalone ebook.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Churn-An-Expanse-Novella-ebook/dp/B00I82884W

 

There are IIRC three novellas already finished:

The Churn

The Butcher of Anderson Station

The Gods of Risk

 

All three are interesting in their own right, but The Churn is the only one IMHO that is actually necessary to bring extra depth to the main story of the novels.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I hope they publish as a paper book eventually.

[Howdyphillip]

Has everyone discussing Amos read The Churn? Because I think if some are arguing from the position of having read it and others not it casts the character in a different light

I actually have not read this, or even had knowledge of its existence. I just bought it though and now have plans for the afternoon. Thanks.

[Rhom]

I hope they publish as a paper book eventually.

I believe they do once they have a couple more published.

[YellowDogJen]

Just picked up The Churn. Thanks, guys! :)

[HairBearHero]

The Churn is excellent. As are all the other novellas - although The Butcher of Anderson Station is extremely short.