Can a woman serve as Hand of King?

[purple-eyes]

It seems like woman is rarely included in small council. 

We have a couple of them taking the role of Varys, as mistress of whispers. 

but this is for spy work, not really a political leader role. 

And recently we have Lady Nym to join the small council but without a fixed title. 

Like a regular congresswoman, I guess. 

So if a bastard woman can serve as a council member, then a high-born lady can probably serve as the hand for the king. 

suppose there is a powerful woman as hand of the king, what will happen?

 

 

 

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Something along those lines:

"Those pissing contests are how lords judge one another's strength, and woe to any man who shows his weakness. A woman must needs piss twice as hard, if she hopes to rule".

[purple-eyes]

Something along those lines:

But in many cases women ruled as regent or by own birthright, such as Cersei, Alyssa Velaryon, Sarah Aryyn, lady jenny of vale, not to mention Nymeria and all the ruling princesses of Dorne, and many smaller ladies, like rhae of runestone, Arwen of old oak, etc. 

we are not short of powerful women, some of them even ruled as the lord paramount. 

But strangely nobody was invited into small council. 

 

[FuzzyJAM]

Hand is an appointment and I'm struggling to think of any women being appointed to power.  That's very different from legally simply having power thrust upon you.  To be fair, you mention Mistresses of Whispers, but I think that is fundamentally a role of servitude, and despised by many.  Hand, however, is the most powerful appointment available in the Seven Kingdoms.  I imagine most people, men and women both high and low throughout the kingdom, would need one hell of a good reason for why that should be a woman.  Perhaps not all people - less so in Dorne, for instance - but I suspect it's a pretty big challenge.  

Another thing not immediately obvious is that women are not generally groomed for power.  It's not just that valuable female candidates are ignored by virtue of their sex (or made unworkable because of inevitable opposition that would arise towards them), but rather that there would probably be far fewer worthwhile candidates in the first place (at least, by the standards of kings making an appointment).

So there are a bunch of different reasons, but in general it boils down to (1) There are far fewer powerful women and (2) appointing women to power would probably be unpopular.  

 

[Taenqyrhae]

In the CK2 Game of Thrones mod, under the default Westeros crown laws women can be Mistress of Whisperers, Treasurer, Justiciar, or even Master of Arms, but not Castellan (which is what Hand of the King is).  I think some of the other cultures allow that, though.

Want an unstable Iron Throne?  Have a worshipper of the Old Gods end up on the throne and appoint all women to your Kingsguard (yes, I did this).  It may have worked for Qadaffi, not for Jon Stark.  

[Artos Cold]

But in many cases women ruled as regent or by own birthright, such as Cersei, Alyssa Velaryon, Sarah Aryyn, lady jenny of vale, not to mention Nymeria and all the ruling princesses of Dorne, and many smaller ladies, like rhae of runestone, Arwen of old oak, etc. 

we are not short of powerful women, some of them even ruled as the lord paramount. 

But strangely nobody was invited into small council. 

 

Sharra Arryn, Jeyne Arryn, Rhea Royce. 

[Snowisnobastard]

I suppose a strong king can chose anyone he likes as his hand. I'd like to see someone try to tell him no.

[Lord Varys]

There seems to be no historical precedent for it, but that doesn't mean that a later (female) monarch might not also name a female Hand.

Historically the office doesn't seem to have been that important prior to Septon Barth and Otto Hightower. The old queens - Rhaenys, Visenya, Alyssa Velaryon, and Alysanne clearly co-ruled the Realm and thus outranked the Hand and all the councilors.

All of them would have sat on the Iron Throne themselves.

And Tyanna of the Tower may have been the most powerful of them all considering that she was Maegor's sole queen for a time as well as the Mistress of Whisperers. She would have been the most powerful person in the Realm after Maegor, and perhaps the one who was even more feared than he was...

[purple-eyes]

There seems to be no historical precedent for it, but that doesn't mean that a later (female) monarch might not also name a female Hand.

Historically the office doesn't seem to have been that important prior to Septon Barth and Otto Hightower. The old queens - Rhaenys, Visenya, Alyssa Velaryon, and Alysanne clearly co-ruled the Realm and thus outranked the Hand and all the councilors.

All of them would have sat on the Iron Throne themselves.

And Tyanna of the Tower may have been the most powerful of them all considering that she was Maegor's sole queen for a time as well as the Mistress of Whisperers. She would have been the most powerful person in the Realm after Maegor, and perhaps the one who was even more feared than he was...

Did queen outrank the hand?

Hand is the chief adviser. Queen is one adviser too. 

But king is the main ruler. 

as a wife, queen may be able to persuade her husband more easily (if king respects and/or loves his queen enough) 

but talking about the office and rank, technically hand is the second most powerful person in the realm. 

 

[Blackfyre Bastard]

In the CK2 Game of Thrones mod, under the default Westeros crown laws women can be Mistress of Whisperers, Treasurer, Justiciar, or even Master of Arms, but not Castellan (which is what Hand of the King is).  I think some of the other cultures allow that, though.

Want an unstable Iron Throne?  Have a worshipper of the Old Gods end up on the throne and appoint all women to your Kingsguard (yes, I did this).  It may have worked for Qadaffi, not for Jon Stark.  

I immediately thought of the mod mechanics when I read the title of the thread. 

[Lord Varys]

The early queens were more than consorts. Rhaenys and Visenya co-ruled the Realm in an official capacity, from atop the Iron Throne as well as alongside the councilors of the king (which means that they would have had authority to give them orders).

This seems to be the case for Alysanne, too, who was not just Jaehaerys' wife and sister, but also shared in his power in an official capacity (not in the informal way later queens did).

And Alyssa Velaryon was the woman who deposed Maegor the Cruel and ruled the Realm as Queen Regent during the minority of Jaehaerys I. If she did not sit on the Iron Throne in Aenys' day, she most certainly did so during the Regency. Her lasting influence is pretty obvious i the family - Jaehaerys' first daughter is named Alyssa after her grandmother, and Prince Aemon, Jaehaerys' eldest surviving son, is married to his grandmother's daughter by Robar Baratheon, Jocelyn Baratheon. That is a very telling development.

The whole thing about the Hand speaking with the King's Voice and sitting on the Iron Throne in the king's absence is a later development that probably began with the close partnership between Jaehaerys and Barth and continued throughout the reign of Viserys I (who granted Otto Hightower the power to rule the Realm until the coronation of the next monarch).

But there is no reason to believe the office of the Hand was invented as an office of such vast power. It developed in this direction, and one can assume that it was during Prince Viserys' long tenure as Hand that this process was finally finished.

In the early days, the queens ruled in the king's name in the absence of their royal husband, not the Hand.

[Greystark Reborn]

Just finished watching GOT101's latest episode, Dangerous Ideas. One of the dangerous ideas in Westeros was Gender Equality, they explained that what it does is undermind the socitial fabric of Westoros, of male rule and female submission, gender equality underminds the Andall patriarchy. But I think with the history set up by the World of Ice and Fire: Alysanne, Ryanyra, Nymeria; events have been leading up to this change, and we see it with more and more women in the series coming into positions of power after Robert's Rebellion. Martin has place the focus on the main series being at the exact time frame where society is experiencing a fundimental that will be the result of the final events of the War of Ice and Fire.

[purple-eyes]

The early queens were more than consorts. Rhaenys and Visenya co-ruled the Realm in an official capacity, from atop the Iron Throne as well as alongside the councilors of the king (which means that they would have had authority to give them orders).

This seems to be the case for Alysanne, too, who was not just Jaehaerys' wife and sister, but also shared in his power in an official capacity (not in the informal way later queens did).

And Alyssa Velaryon was the woman who deposed Maegor the Cruel and ruled the Realm as Queen Regent during the minority of Jaehaerys I. If she did not sit on the Iron Throne in Aenys' day, she most certainly did so during the Regency. Her lasting influence is pretty obvious i the family - Jaehaerys' first daughter is named Alyssa after her grandmother, and Prince Aemon, Jaehaerys' eldest surviving son, is married to his grandmother's daughter by Robar Baratheon, Jocelyn Baratheon. That is a very telling development.

The whole thing about the Hand speaking with the King's Voice and sitting on the Iron Throne in the king's absence is a later development that probably began with the close partnership between Jaehaerys and Barth and continued throughout the reign of Viserys I (who granted Otto Hightower the power to rule the Realm until the coronation of the next monarch).

But there is no reason to believe the office of the Hand was invented as an office of such vast power. It developed in this direction, and one can assume that it was during Prince Viserys' long tenure as Hand that this process was finally finished.

In the early days, the queens ruled in the king's name in the absence of their royal husband, not the Hand.

Honestly IMHO only Visenya and Rhaenys really co-ruled the country since they together conquered the kingdom with Aegon. This made them very special.

For Alyssa and Alysanne, they are similar to Cersei and sharra Arryn, regent and powerful adviser (but of course, with much more respect and trust from their husbands). Remember they said jaehearys canceled the first night thing to please his wife? This is slightly different from what Aegon did for his sisters.

Technically, co-ruler means equal ruler, like Nymeria and Morse, sat side by side on two thrones, discussed together to make final decisions and one can not simply take the final word. Or like the two kings of Gondor, side by side. 

Alysanne is still a less ruler. And I am not sure if she can literally out-rank Septon Barth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

Well, even with Rhaenys and Visenya Aegon was the guy in charge. He was the king, and his sister-wives weren't on exactly the same co-ruler level. But they still shared in his power to a degree later queens did not. And the same is also confirmed for the Good Queen although Yandel downplays that. We have other sources on Alysanne in the books making it quite clear that she was very much in charge of things. George even compares her to Eleanor of Aquitaine in his description to Amok.

But the status of the queens isn't the only important point, the other is development of the office of the Hand and the Small Council. Aegon, Aenys, and Maegor had councilors fulfilling those offices and bearing those titles, but there was no formal Small Council until the reign of Jaehaerys I, which means that the offices would have been less defined and more fluid back in those days.

The idea that any lesser man - and may he be the Hand or just another member of the king's court - could tell a sister-wife of the king and a granddaughter, great-granddaughter, etc. of Aegon the Conqueror what to do is very unlikely. Things grew gradually worse even for the queens of Targaryen blood but there would always be difference in rank between a non-Targaryen blooded queen and a Targaryen queen who had a claim to the Iron Throne herself.

 

[Jaak]

There was the Hand that wasn´t. After Lord Lyonel Strong died, Viserys I considered a new Hand - and in the end, rejected her because bringing her to King´s Landing from Dragonstone would have given occasions for her to quarrel with Alicent´s children. That Rhaenyra was a woman was no objection.

Considering that Daeron would soon be sent to Oldtown at a pretty young age, Viserys really should have sent away Aegon and Aemond instead. Daeron and Helaena were less quarrelsome.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, back during the reign of Viserys I - even with the Great Council and the decision against female inheritance from 92 AC in mind - things weren't yet as misogynistic as they are later on. Rhaenyra also seems to have named at least one woman to her Small Council - Lady Mysaria the White Worm, serving as Mistress of Whisperers.

But Daeron II apparently couldn't officially name Princess Elaena his Mistress of Coin, and Cersei has internalized the idea that a woman cannot serve as Hand - she is considering Taena for the office, after all, and settles on Orton because a woman cannot hold the office.

The idea that Cersei should actually rule as Queen Regent and sit on the Small Council of King Joffrey in a court completely controlled by the Lannisters actually causes some public outcries when it is revealed during a court session shortly after Cersei's coup. This shows us how bad the position of women are at this point in the story.

I expect that Mariah Martell and Betha Blackwood played important roles at the courts of their husbands, but everything we know suggests that even they were confined to the consort role and could at best counsel their husbands behind closed doors.

[SeanF]

A woman can certainly serve on the Small Council.  Dorne can nominate a woman to represent them (albeit Dorne is unusual.  This is the sole territorial seat on the Small Council, and Dorne is well used to women being ruling Princesses and Lords).  Tyanna of Pentos was Mistress of Whisperers.  Perhaps we'll discover that other women served on the Small Council, as more of the history of Westeros is released.

As Lord Varys has pointed out, Rhaneys, Visenya, Alyssa, and Alysanne were all co-rulers, rather than just being Queen consorts.  They may have been junior to their husbands, but clearly had executive authority.  The Roman and Byzantine empires had both senior and junior emperors and this is probably similar to the model in Westeros.

Subsequent to the Dance of the Dragons, royal women lost a lot of authority.  Once they ceased to be dragon riders, their power and prestige declined.  But, a woman can be Queen Regent, outranking the Hand.  Cersei could have defied her father when he told her to remarry, even dismissed him from his office as Hand.

In principle, though, I can't see why a woman could not be Hand, however unusual that might be.

[Lord Varys]

SeanF,

well, Nymeria Sand has yet to be arrive in KL (the Golden Company could capture her in the Stormlands) and be accepted on the council. Kevan never got around to tell Mace and Randyll about her, and despite the fact that Kevan intended to allow her join the council, Mace might not be so inclined.

Her gender could become a welcome pretext to disallow her to join the council. Dorne doesn't have an eternal right to a council seat. Tyrion promised Doran a seat, Tywin let it stand, but Mace is not forced to continue this nonsense, especially if he has already seized the Regency when/if Nymeria arrives.

[Lion of the West]

I'd say that of course a woman can hold the post, the issue would come with the sexism of Westeros making her have to work a great deal harder than a man for the same results. But if she can get the job done, I see no reason as to why she couldn't hold the job.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I see no reason why not.