Free Northman Reborn Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, baxus said: Police couldn't protect you from things like that no matter what the gun regulation was. Police can't possibly cover every single location and guarantee safety. My point exactly. The rest of your post, I disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 28 minutes ago, Lordsteve666 said: But which is the better situation, one with a single gunman or one with an unknown number of additional shooters all trying to hit what they believe is the correct target an unfamiliar and confused situation. I'd fancy my chances much more in a situation with one lone gunman that if half the customers pulled out 9mm's and started shooting at where they "think" the shots are coming from. For starters there's no way of knowing how good a shot these extra shooters are (everyone thinks they're a sharp shooter until it all kicks off). Then there's fact that the situation gets drawn out into a massed gun battle with civilians all over the place not knowing who is the real "bad guy". What happens if Johnny pulls out his gun to shoot the perp and then Joe pull out his gun to shoot Johnny who he thinks is the real enemy? Suddenly there's a whole shit load more targets to get shot and that doesn't even include the poor civilians stuck in the crossfire. And that's before the poor police get there and have to identify a single true gunman from 5, 10 or even 20 other guys with guns out shooting each other. Yes, FNM's view of reality is more informed by Die Hard. Yippee ki yay, motherfuckers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: My point exactly. The rest of your post, I disagree with. Excuse me? You don't belive stricter Gun control is a big reason why its harder for people who want to shoot up public places to get guns and bullets, thus making it harder and therefore less likely these crimes happen? Ok then. Explain to me why there are more school shootings ect in the US than the UK when adjusted for population size? Yes these things can still happen, they happened in Paris not that long ago, But erm I'm sure we can name every mass shooting event in in the UK and France in the last ten years without any googling. If Gun Control is not a major part of being less at risk from Guns in the UK then in the US please enlighten me as to the real reason. I am not advocating Gun control in the US to be like the UK. Its a different place with a different culture. But I am saying that it makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 7 minutes ago, Pebbles said: Excuse me? You don't belive stricter Gun control is a big reason why its harder for people who want to shoot up public places to get guns and bullets, thus making it harder and therefore less likely these crimes happen? Ok then. Explain to me why there are more school shootings ect in the US than the UK when adjusted for population size? Yes these things can still happen, they happened in Paris not that long ago, But erm I'm sure we can name every mass shooting event in in the UK and France in the last ten years without any googling. If Gun Control is not a major part of being less at risk from Guns in the UK then in the US please enlighten me as to the real reason. I am not advocating Gun control in the US to be like the UK. Its a different place with a different culture. But I am saying that it makes a difference. No gun control measure that is realistically achievable in the US would have prevented these mass shootings. Hence, you won't get away from these types of events. You just have to prepare for them instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsteve666 Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: No gun control measure that is realistically achievable in the US would have prevented these mass shootings. Hence, you won't get away from these types of events. You just have to prepare for them instead. So your solution is rather than deal with the underlying problem is just accept it as normal part of society and move on. Jesus, it's a good job doctors don't work to the same principles or everyone would be living in fear or dying from millions of disease or ailments. 100 years ago people thought wiping out polio was not realistically achievable, now look where we are. The US could solve their gun problem if they wanted to. You're one of the richest and most advanced countries in the world but you don't want to deal with the issue of your own people getting killed on the streets or at school or in church. It's not an easy fix but at least having the sense to discus it properly would go a long way. I get the impression the country as a whole seems to be like Homer Simpson - "if at first you don't succeed, the lesson is never try" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Half the country don't agree with your framing of the problem. They have a solution already. Only what to them is a solution, is to you an increase in the magnitude of the problem. So America is in fact working very hard to solve the problem of gun crime. Only each side of the debate is actively working against the solution proposed by the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 FNR, considering that all other First World Problems don't have this Third World problem, shouldn't the side arguing for doubling down on the main difference to the rest of the First World reconsider their stance? Everybody else seems to have solved this problem (or at least, massively reduced it, compared to you), but your solution is to... do the opposite of what the proven solution is? The mind boggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: No gun control measure that is realistically achievable in the US would have prevented these mass shootings. Hence, you won't get away from these types of events. You just have to prepare for them instead. I don't know enough about guns to effectively evaluate different types of restrictions. and yes at the moment the Horse has already bolted the stable, which makes any gun control much less effective (at least immediately) However from what I've read in previous threads Australia used to have a high gun crime rate, (their horse had also Bolted) and now well they don't. So maybe its not too late for the US either, if there is enough of a will to put some gun control into place. I also think that maybe limiting the magazine size, while it won't prevent the these things may reduce the harm they do. After all even if it takes a few seconds to change magazine, that a few extra seconds when the gunman is not able to shoot anyone. I'm not saying what kind of controls if any are right for the US, but I do think it is a good idea if some kinds where seriously considered, some of it might make a reasonable difference with they limited effect on responsible gun owners. As to responsible gun owners walking around armed all the time, well that's your right. It doesn't effect me, since I live across the Pond, but it is one of the main reasons why I will never live in the US. Other people with guns don't make me feel safe, and I would feel even less safe if I had one as well. Thats my personal opinion. I respect that yours is very different. So yes I would choose the cinema / restaurant with the Anit Gun policy and as long as there are enough people like me in one area then there is going to be pressure on some businesses to provide gun free zones. Likewise there will be pressure from the Pro-gun crowd to allow them. I doubt both sides will ever really agree and be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 FNR, I think you are missing the point of the difficulty in mass shooting situations. If the police arrive and you've shot the shooter how will they, or anyone, know the shooter isn't another victim and you aren't the original shooter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: FNR, I think you are missing the point of the difficulty in mass shooting situations. If the police arrive and you've shot the shooter how will they, or anyone, know the shooter isn't another victim and you aren't the original shooter? Typically in these situations the good guy is wearing a white hat and is clean shaven, while the bad guys are usually bearded and wearing dark hats / masks. I believe most LE is trained to spot these differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said: My point exactly. The rest of your post, I disagree with. Would you like to live in a country where you'd have armed police EVERYWHERE? And why on Earth would you think that armed, untrained hero wannabes everywhere is in any way better scenario than that? 1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said: No gun control measure that is realistically achievable in the US would have prevented these mass shootings. Hence, you won't get away from these types of events. You just have to prepare for them instead. Now this is a very interesting part. How exactly do you prepare for this types of events? What exactly is the course of action if you're in a cinema and a maniac shows up with a shotgun? And what kind of training have you undergone to prepare for it? Have you enrolled in some police and/or military training? First aid course? Do you and your friends buy seats in tactically important spots of the cinema? Do you sit separately in order to not be distracted by chit-chat? Who covers what angle? Who gets to actually watch the movie instead of being on guard duty? What if one of your S.E.A.L. team gets taken out? What are the contingencies? 11 minutes ago, larrytheimp said: Typically in these situations the good guy is wearing a white hat and is clean shaven, while the bad guys are usually bearded and wearing dark hats / masks. I believe most LE is trained to spot these differences. Don't forget that bad guys are yelling either in Russian or Arabic, and only using words that an average John McClane would understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordsteve666 Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: FNR, I think you are missing the point of the difficulty in mass shooting situations. If the police arrive and you've shot the shooter how will they, or anyone, know the shooter isn't another victim and you aren't the original shooter? This was my point earlier. Dealing with a single shooter is hard enough. But what if there's 5 guys in the cinema/restaurant/church/mall with guns out, how is a beat cop who just got called in because he's in the area going to know which one is the true danger? The actual real shooter could even pretend he's just an innocent trying to protect lives. The cops have to decided on the spot who is who and that's a lot of weight on their shoulders (kill all the gunmen - can't be too careful, shoot nobody - they could all be innocent, hesitate because they have no idea - more civilians or the police get killed, wait for back-up - the perp escapes) In that sort of situation it might be that not even the extra guys who pulled out guns know who is the real shooter, they might all think there's 4 guys involved and they are the only "good guy". It's essentially a much more deadly version of a bar fight which has gotten out of hand, where nobody really knows who started what as more people get drawn in to the conflict. The only person who really knows the true picture is the guy who started it all. Sad thing is the guns make the whole thing more deadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 On 1/12/2016 at 6:03 PM, DanteGabriel said: Yup, I've definitely seen a thing making the rounds in social media that if you're out at a restaurant or other business and see one of these sad pseudo-cowboys come in with openly carried guns, you should just leave. Even if it means walking out on a meal. Yep. Like most people here, I see how Americans handle their cars; I cannot believe they're going to be significantly more responsible with their firearms. When some moron shoots himself in the foot at a restaurant, I'd rather not be in the line of fire. Open-carry activists, in my view, are bullies. They don't actively threaten anyone, but they proudly bear deadly force knowing that the very presence of the weapon is a threat. Fuck those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris G Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: FNR, I think you are missing the point of the difficulty in mass shooting situations. If the police arrive and you've shot the shooter how will they, or anyone, know the shooter isn't another victim and you aren't the original shooter? Scot, FNR doesn't care about any of that. I've had the exact same unproductive conversation with him. He only cares about having a firearm to protect his family from all the scary stuff in the world because it's the only way he thinks he can. No amount of logic or discussion will change his mind. You are wasting your time because he is not listening. Of course, the idea of a bunch of John McLane loving dudes stopping the terrorists is ridiculous to us. Especially to our European friends, the idea of gun toting private citizens is crazy. People like FNR think the are the one who will survive the apocalypse and the breakdown of society. They like to imagine themselves as the lone wolf survivor when it all goes to shit. Their entire worldview is formed by this idea of survival at all costs. To them, a gun is just a sensible precaution to take, like having plenty of water or canned goods during an emergency. You will never convince these people that they are a crazy fringe and most people don't live their lives in fear of someone taking their shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Chris, Don't get me wrong I support the individual right to keep and bear firearms. I simply don't think they are terribly helpful in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: FNR, I think you are missing the point of the difficulty in mass shooting situations. If the police arrive and you've shot the shooter how will they, or anyone, know the shooter isn't another victim and you aren't the original shooter? In about a million different ways. Cell phones, putting your gun down and your hands up, witnesses, etc.... I don't really buy the argument about more guns=more safety, but the arguments against it are generally also terrible. And with all this talk about safety bubbles and 'OMG not if but when', it's worth pointing out again that americans are safer today than at any point in history, and that that fact continues to trend positively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lessthanluke Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 2 hours ago, Swordfish said: In about a million different ways. Cell phones, putting your gun down and your hands up, witnesses, etc.... You're assuming the police aren't going to shoot the guy with a gun on sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 3 minutes ago, lessthanluke said: You're assuming the police aren't going to shoot the guy with a gun on sight. Depends on whether or not you're a 12 year old kid in a park with a bb gun or a bunch of militia holding federal property hostage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astromech Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 At long last switchblades may finally be legal again in Wisconsin after the nefarious fear-mongering following West Side Story led to their ban. Amendment AB 142 passed the State Senate last night and has been sent to Gov. Walker for his signature. http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=330 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 6 minutes ago, Astromech said: At long last switchblades may finally be legal again in Wisconsin after the nefarious fear-mongering following West Side Story led to their ban. Amendment AB 142 passed the State Senate last night and has been sent to Gov. Walker for his signature. http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=330 Only thing better than the fact that there is a "Knife Rights" organization? That their slogan is "A Sharper Future". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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