Rant and Rave Without Repercussions - Includes Season 6 Spoilers

[JonCon's Red Beard]

9 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I am not going to start a debate on it but "Still … we wouldn't want him to leave here entirely unchastened, so"—through the night and the rain, he glimpsed the white of Jaime's smile—"kill his men." 

Edit: (Ned was however inclined to see the worst in Jaime so I am not really sure Jaime did smile )

When you say "kill", you inevitably smile.

[AerionBrightflameII]

I wouldn't be surprised if he did smile.. That was before he started to change and break away from Cersei..

He and Ned had no love for each other and his brother was taken hostage.. His first response has always been to use his sword.

 

-His brother never untied a knot when he could slash it in two with his sword.

Tyrion Lannister.

 

 

[Toth]

Just regarding the current discussion... haven't we learned from Jaime's POV that a cocky smile is his default expression whenever he feels unsure? Just because he learned that it makes his opponents uneasy.

Of course I also believe his general "Meh, whatever"-attitude in this time-period caused his violent decision-making. Bullying Ned into submission is still better than doing nothing, that's what I took from his thinking process.

 

[Le Cygne]

That's true, there's more going on. Jaime and Sandor, you can never go by what's on the surface, you have to dig deeper. With Sandor, look for signs of something reminding him of what his brother did to him, and he is all full of false bravado, but if you look deeper, he actually trying to be nice to someone. With Jaime, ditto for the Kingslayer reminders, Ned rubs him the wrong way. Moral of the story, you can't go by their words alone, or their I'm big and bad puffing themselves up, it's usually the opposite going on inside.

Here's Jaime with the wench, notice he's admiring her, then he thinks he's going to whack her, but he does the opposite (and just a minute ago, he thought she had pretty eyes):

Quote

Ser Cleos raised a shout. When Jaime looked up, Brienne was lumbering along the clifftop, well ahead of them, having cut across a finger of land while they were following the bend in the river. She threw herself off the rock, and looked almost graceful as she folded into a dive. It would have been ungracious to hope that she would smash her head on a stone. Ser Cleos turned the skiff toward her. Thankfully, Jaime still had his oar. One good swing when she comes paddling up and I'll be free of her.

Instead he found himself stretching the oar out over the water. Brienne grabbed hold, and Jaime pulled her in. As he helped her into the skiff, water ran from her hair and dripped from her sodden clothing to pool on the deck. She's even uglier wet. Who would have thought it possible? "You're a bloody stupid wench," he told her. "We could have sailed on without you. I suppose you expect me to thank you?"

"I want none of your thanks, Kingslayer. I swore an oath to bring you safe to King's Landing."

"And you actually mean to keep it?" Jaime gave her his brightest smile. "Now there's a wonder."

 

[Tijgy]

To be honest, I am not really sure what Jaime is thinking here? Except for I am angry my little brother is kidnapped. I want to hurt someone. O no, I cannot really hurt Ned Stark (1° Cat Stark might hurt Tyrion when I hurt that frozen-faced bastard; 2° While Robert is angry at Ned, killing Ned would make Robert very angry) ... Let hurt him by hurting his men? 

I cannot really see anything else what Jaime is here trying to achieve? Except maybe sending a message to Ned: you cannot hurt my family otherwise I will hurt you? No matter what, I think their death are still sort of pointless? They would be less pointless if they actually captured Ned or something and schemed with LF to shut up? They would have then a hostage and they just could have been traded (and they could have stopped their attacks on the RL)

I think the smile can be explained by many things. I think you must not forget Ned is the one who thinks he sees the smile? And Ned is a bit paranoid if it concerns the Lannisters. I mean he actually blames them for almost everything (thanks to the scheming by the real monster LF) . 

He still gave the order that lead to Jory's death. (And this actually does not make me dislike Jaime ... it might make me just more conflicted about my love for him  but I do not love him less for it.)

 

[Le Cygne]

And Ned still led him to believe the Starks would kill his beloved brother for something he didn't do.

"Your brother has been taken at my command, to answer for his crimes," Ned Stark said.

Again, "Kingslayer" rubs Jaime the wrong way, as Ned knows, and Ned calls him that.

There are two sides to this story, you can like one better than the other, but there was a lot going on.

(And again, my original rant was, they are taking this out of context, and dialing it up, to paint Jaime as a "monster"... although now he's just a lunkhead.)

 

[Toth]

17 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

And Ned still led him to believe the Starks would kill his beloved brother for something he didn't do.

"Your brother has been taken at my command, to answer for his crimes," Ned Stark said.

Again, "Kingslayer" rubs Jaime the wrong way, as Ned knows, and Ned calls him that.

There are two sides to this story, you can like one better than the other, but there was a lot going on.

Yeah, two sides of a story is it exactly. I mean, I found Ned's reaction in this scene also very interesting. He is confused, he has no idea what is going on, Jaime goes at him threateningly. And yet his first reaction is basically "I can't show myself being in disagreement with my wife. Whatever her reasoning was in capturing Tyrion, I'll go with that."

Of course, backing down and telling the truth to Jaime would have been the sensible choice, but considering Tywin's usual overkill reaction, coming to an agreement with Jaime would have helped nothing at all in the long run.

[Tijgy]

I think Ned's and Jaime's problem is that they both assume things of each which is not really the truth and that is thanks to the masks they both wear. They should have gone to some relation therapy to clear everything up. (And for Ned I think this goes back to his demonizing the Lannisters so he can put the entire blame of the atrocities of the RR on their shoulders and ignore the fact Robert did not react to the murders of the Targaryen children. It will otherwise hurt the image he has of Robert as his valiant protector  Ned ... he doesn't really deserve you. And the real big monster you are looking for is not the Lannisters (mmm, still a little) nor Robert ... but that evil smirking little mockingbird - Sadly Ned cannot hear me otherwise he might be still alive ) 

But I think it looks like D&D are too much focusing how Jaime is being perceived by people. They are actually felling into the trap where a lot of characters fall into, the image of Jaime as the Kingslayer  They are so blind as Ned: it is not Jaime who is the monster. It might be a little Cersei, Tywin, ... but it is certainly that evil smirking little mockingbird. And unlike Ned they have actually books which make that perfectly clear who is the monster   

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 hours ago, Davros Seaworth said:

I'm not sure love potion is the right word, sound very Harry Potter, but yes, I agree I think, perhaps its because in teh books a female character (Jeyne's mum) has agency and they don't want that as well.

 

5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

No, I don't really think that was it.  I believe they felt that the 'he had to marry her because she was a virgin' would be too old fashioned for the HBO audience and they wanted a more 'modern' take.

I hated everything about Talisa and have ranted about her for years...but I don't think they saw it as harmful to Robb's story, they thought the idea of 'marrying for love' would resonate w/the audience.

What I thought the show should have done was have Jeyne Westering, older, holding out at the Crag, the rest of her family dead in the war, and then they can fall in love, but he would marry her not 'cause I luvs her' he would marry her because otherwise, as a Lannister House, if he left her she would end up dead.  Something more like this  I thought split the difference, it's more adult and modern, but still gives Robb an actually honorable reason to marry her.  They could have put the Crag closer to the RL and talked up the Mountain to make a sense of danger seem realistic.

In the books, that is what Maggy the Frog is known for and it is not by chance that Sybella and Jeyne are her decendents. Robb told his mother that he meant to marry a Frey girl but it was the combination of grief, his injuries, he was bed ridden and something made them do it.  they are also having sex multiple times a day he tells Cat and they are crazy about each other. Robb knew the consequences of this with the Freys but did it anyway. Robb was pretty level headed and winning until this point. He took his oaths seriously and was going to hang the Greatjohn if he broke his. I think love potion was used and since GRRM says that Jeyne Westerling will be in the prologe of TWOW, we may get a confirmation if, IF the POV of the prologue is Sybella Spicer Westerling.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

6 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I think Ned's and Jaime's problem is that they both assume things of each which is not really the truth and that is thanks to the masks they both wear. They should have gone to some relation therapy to clear everything up. (And for Ned I think this goes back to his demonizing the Lannisters so he can put the entire blame of the atrocities of the RR on their shoulders and ignore the fact Robert did not react to the murders of the Targaryen children. It will otherwise hurt the image he has of Robert as his valiant protector  Ned ... he doesn't really deserve you. And the real big monster you are looking for is not the Lannisters (mmm, still a little) nor Robert ... but that evil smirking little mockingbird - Sadly Ned cannot hear me otherwise he might be still alive ) 

But I think it looks like D&D are too much focusing how Jaime is being perceived by people. They are actually felling into the trap where a lot of characters fall into, the image of Jaime as the Kingslayer  They are so blind as Ned: it is not Jaime who is the monster. It might be a little Cersei, Tywin, ... but it is certainly that evil smirking little mockingbird. And unlike Ned they have actually books which make that perfectly clear who is the monster   

An now that "evil smirking little mockingbird" gets to save WF

[Le Cygne]

Robb is also a teenager, wanting sex in those circumstances don't require a love potion. Why is it Dany is just a teenager with a crush, but Robb requires a love potion? Could be they both have genuine desires, and may even like the woman/man involved.

[Tijgy]

2 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

An now that "evil smirking little mockingbird" gets to save WF

Yeah, and at the same time Jaime is a monster, they made them kill his cousin and he is Larrified 

[Tijgy]

O no I was wrong. Ned was looking for a beast not a monster:

"And the truth of Jon Arryn's death still eluded him. Oh, he had found a few pieces, enough to convince him that Jon had indeed been murdered, but that was no more than the spoor of an animal on the forest floor. He had not sighted the beast itself yet, though he sensed it was there, lurking, hidden, treacherous."

Ned, it is Littlefinger!!!!! Sigh. And now that beast is responsible for Ned's downfall is going to be the hero of Winterfell 

[Le Cygne]

That's going to be the worst of season 6. The man who killed Ned and destroyed his daughter's life riding to the rescue. Can you imagine the "You go, Littlefinger" stuff in the media! HERO OF THE NORTH! This is really bad writing, it's undoing everything, but hey, nothing is just nothing. Just the sort of thing they like. I can just hear the Outside the Episode now. And for goodness sake, keep Sophie Turner away from those, spare us having to listen to "he is so awesome!"

And I guess they will hate Fansa when she finally turns on him. She should have appreciated him. What a mess...

[Toth]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Robb is also a teenager, wanting sex in those circumstances don't require a love potion. Why is it Dany is just a teenager with a crush, but Robb requires a love potion? Could be they both have genuine desires, and may even like the woman/man involved.

Never bought that theory myself. Especially since nobody on the Westerling side gained anything from it. Much the opposite, considering Tywin's usual retaliation regarding bannermen falling out of line. Nah, it's just something that happened between the two, further enforced by Robb's entire "can't father a bastard, I saw myself how miserable Jon felt - so there is just one honorable thing to do"-train of thought.

[Toth]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Robb is also a teenager, wanting sex in those circumstances don't require a love potion. Why is it Dany is just a teenager with a crush, but Robb requires a love potion? Could be they both have genuine desires, and may even like the woman/man involved.

Never bought that theory myself. Especially since nobody on the Westerling side gained anything from it. Much the opposite, considering Tywin's usual retaliation regarding bannermen falling out of line. Nah, it's just something that happened between the two, further enforced by Robb's entire "can't father a bastard, I saw myself how miserable Jon felt - so there is just one honorable thing to do"-train of thought.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

That's going to be the worst of season 6. The man who killed Ned and destroyed his daughter's life riding to the rescue. Can you imagine the "You go, Littlefinger" stuff in the media! HERO OF THE NORTH! This is really bad writing, it's undoing everything, but hey, nothing is just nothing. Just the sort of thing they like. I can just hear the Outside the Episode now. And for goodness sake, keep Sophie Turner away from those, spare us having to listen to "he is so awesome!"

No the worst is how he even gets the Value to follow him. "Hey Yohn, I don't know how but Sansa (the girl who you and the rest of the Value lords vowed protect and was last seen with me heading for the North) is somehow the Boltons captive let's go save her!"

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

18 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Robb is also a teenager, wanting sex in those circumstances don't require a love potion. Why is it Dany is just a teenager with a crush, but Robb requires a love potion? Could be they both have genuine desires, and may even like the woman/man involved.

I completely get the crush and horny thing but the connection to Maggy the Frog is there for a reason. Besides, Robb is fighting for a crown and Kingdom. Dany tends to have such things fall in her lap in comparison.

[Le Cygne]

It's all going to be nauseating. But hey...

[A Ghost of Someone]

Just now, Le Cygne said:

It's all going to be nauseating. But hey...

yep, Nothing is Nothing.