The North storyline is worse then Dorne

[D-Shiznit]

The Grand Northern Conspiracy basically got debunked.

[nedstarksdetachedhead]

Hahahaha nothing will ever be as shit as Dorne. 

[TheSerb]

I agree that this story is not perfect, especially the abandonment of the whole North remembers thing. I'm not sure if that's supposed to be some kind of an in-universe deconstruction of the trope? I feel it's only peasants and farmers and smallfolk who really care for that. Most of the nobility have turned against Starks even more it seems, because they are bitter that Robb had many of their men killed because of his stupid mistakes.

But...

Why in his right mind would Jon show Longclaw to the Mormonts? How would that help in any way? Hell, they would probably demand that the sword be returned to its rightful family.

[Winter's Cold]

18 minutes ago, D-Shiznit said:

The Grand Northern Conspiracy basically got debunked.

The will doesn't exist in the show. We haven't met Wyman Manderly or Barbery Dustin. The Umbers have sided fully with the Boltons and even given up Rickon Stark. The show version of the North is quite different from the book version.

[Kaibaman]

3 minutes ago, TheSerb said:

I agree that this story is not perfect, especially the abandonment of the whole North remembers thing. I'm not sure if that's supposed to be some kind of an in-universe deconstruction of the trope? I feel it's only peasants and farmers and smallfolk who really care for that. Most of the nobility have turned against Starks even more it seems, because they are bitter that Robb had many of their men killed because of his stupid mistakes.

But...

Why in his right mind would Jon show Longclaw to the Mormonts? How would that help in any way? Hell, they would probably demand that the sword be returned to its rightful family.

To be fair I don't think the Northern lords were simply apathetic but rather pragmatic to the dangers of risking war. Lets face it, loyalty is a virtue but as Davos points out nobody is blindly loyal to the point of risking their lives and those they are responsible for unless they know their cause isn't just good but winnable. When Robb called the banners, the lords of the North were probably just bored and looking for a chance for adventure and glory and they were in a position where they all had huge amounts of troops at their disposal. But post Red Wedding, they are now wary of war because they've already lost a lot of fighting men and aren't in a position to contribute to the Stark cause, and some like the Glovers had their homes attacked when they were away. Plus the fact that Jon and Sansa don't have the numbers to begin with isn't helping their recruiting efforts when Ramsay has far more soldiers available.

I think Jon should have taken Longclaw with him to Bear Island. Giving it back to them would have been a gesture of goodwill and the fact that Joer had entrusted it to Jon would have being a point in his favor.

[Trump the Builder]

I actually love the battle for the North - much more than the Dornish storyline anyways.  I do agree that this whole episode was a bit weak as far as progressing this story though.  I too was wondering when Jon was going to show Longclaw.  Also, they left that one place without much of a fight and just kind of accepted that the one family will not be on their side.  That was pretty weak of Jon and Sansa.  

[King Edd of House Tollet]

My problem with how this plotline is handled in the show is extremely poor

I do agree that some House of the North would not want to fight for the Stark due to fear, lack of manpower and wary of war in general, but loyality is a very important caracterist there, it should be more emphasized. At least a major house support they should get, like the Manderlys, who in the books are cleary a Stark Loyalist house.

But the way they are building the battle, it is becoming more and more clear that they are making the Stark army with half the size of the Bolton army into fighting them anyway, so they can be saved by Littlefinger's Vale Army, which is really stupid

[lancerman]

The North Remembers... That the Starks were incompetent clowns that led them all into a war and then sabotaged the whole thing because they were selfish pricks.

 

[TheCasualObserver]

28 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The North Remembers... That the Starks were incompetent clowns that led them all into a war and then sabotaged the whole thing because they were selfish pricks.

 

That's a pretty crude way of putting it, but even if we accept that, the North seems angrier at the Starks for facilitating the red wedding with poor choices than the Boltons for actually committing it.

[TheCasualObserver]

Ramsay is the reason the Northern storyline sucks. He warps the plot so that he can still be a threat to the protagonists even when he shouldn't be.

In political terms Ramsay should be a dead duck. He lost the support of the crown and the legitimacy they provided him when he married Sansa. He lost the support of the freys when he killed Walda. He should have lost the support of his own men when he murdered his father and brother - it's the worst kept secret in the North according to Jon Umber. And he has even lost his wife, with Sansa running off in the company of another man. The rumor mill will paint him as a cuckold, and not being able to control your wife in a medieval society is a hugely embarrassing stigma to have. 

In previous seasons of the show the writer's prided themselves on being a work of fiction where the good guys weren't allowed to cheat their way to victory, so when Robb makes political mistakes he suffers the dire consequences. But flash forward to season 6 and Ramsay has fucked up just about everything that was in his power to fuck up and is still cruising. Every good thing that happens to him is a result of someone else's unrelated mistakes, which just happen to help him out.

Beating Stannis: Stannis burns his daughter alive in front of his men, causing mass desertions. Stannis marches his entirely infantry force into an open field and Ramsay runs right over them with his cavalry. 

Karstarks: Robb Stark kills Lord Karstark, so his son hates all Starks forever and will plump any candidate, no matter how crazy, as long as they are not a Stark.

Umbers: Jon lets the wildlings through the wall and like an idiot makes no attempt to control their inherent desire to be wild, so the Umbers join Ramsay. They also give Ramsay, Rickon, but that's a decision too stupid for me to wrap my head around. (Also - both of Ramsay's new allies have had their fathers executed but Starks and Boltons respectively. But the Karstarks hate the Starks forvever and the Umbers don't give a shit).

Ramsay had no impact on any of the above - they just dropped into his lap. His own appalling political mistakes are without consequence.

And this is all in service to the Battle of the Bastards. We have to have that big fight at the end of every season and this one is no different. Jon's army will fight the Boltons and LF and the Lords of the Vale will come in to help them out - we've known this from ep 4 or even earlier. 

So with that fight on lock, (it's the title of the episode) how can I be invested in the Northern storyline until then? I haven't bothered watching eps 5,6 or 7, because nothing that happens will change that eventuality.

Dorne is still the worst, but the Northern storyline irritates me more, and Ramsay is clearly the reason for it. 

[Cas Stark]

52 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The North Remembers... That the Starks were incompetent clowns that led them all into a war and then sabotaged the whole thing because they were selfish pricks.

 

Clearly having a mad dog kinslayer who flays people alive over taxes is a much better situation for the Northern Houses.  LMAO.

[lancerman]

45 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Clearly having a mad dog kinslayer who flays people alive over taxes is a much better situation for the Northern Houses.  LMAO.

Boltons have flayed forever and nobody has any hard evidence on Ramsay being a kinslayer. Either way even if they hated him, they just followed a Stark into a war and all got burned on it. 

Not to mention Robb's stupidity is the reason they are in this situation in the first place. 

Why hey would any rational person trust the Stark's? They have no army besides some wildlings who have been crossing the wall and murdering and taping northerners, 

It'e stupid blind loyalty at this point to get involved. 

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Boltons have flayed forever and nobody has any hard evidence on Ramsay being a kinslayer. Either way even if they hated him, they just followed a Stark into a war and all got burned on it. 

Not to mention Robb's stupidity is the reason they are in this situation in the first place. 

Why hey would any rational person trust the Stark's? They have no army besides some wildlings who have been crossing the wall and murdering and taping northerners, 

It'e stupid blind loyalty at this point to get involved. 

So did everyone else who followed their liege lords into the war.  Tullys.  Lannisters. Tyrells.  Baratheons.  

I wonder why only the Northern lords have turned on their leaders? 

[Leticia Stark]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So did everyone else who followed their liege lords into the war.  Tullys.  Lannisters. Tyrells.  Baratheons.  

I wonder why only the Northern lords have turned on their leaders? 

Because nothing comes easy for the Starks, lol.

[KINGpanther]

While I agree the North storyline has been crap, nothing can be worse than the turd on a stick that is Dorne.

Probably my biggest gripe is even after everything Jon has been through he is still going around saying 'plz help'. Jon should be hitting people with the truth and demanding aid not trying to convince people to fight.

[lancerman]

47 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

So did everyone else who followed their liege lords into the war.  Tullys.  Lannisters. Tyrells.  Baratheons.  

I wonder why only the Northern lords have turned on their leaders? 

You wonder why? Really? That's strange. 

Maybe because the Northerners are the only ones who had their home attacked and had their liege lord sabotage their efforts so he could his deck wet, while his mom released their most valuable prisoner and faced no repercussions. Maybe because the only Stark's around are a bastard who let a bunch of murderering raiders who have been at odds with the North for years across the border and a women whose been married to the Lannisters and Boltons. 

No other house had to put up with that. I wonder why the Lannister's didn't lose their banners? It's not like Tywin didn't end the fighting the most efficient way possible. 

Get real. It's pure sentimentality at this point and a bunch of people who built up a quote they read into a conspiracy. 

Without a better reason they are stupid for getting involved again. 

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, lancerman said:

You wonder why? Really? That's strange. 

Maybe because the Northerners are the only ones who had their home attacked and had their liege lord sabotage their efforts so he could his deck wet, while his mom released their most valuable prisoner and faced no repercussions. Maybe because the only Stark's around are a bastard who let a bunch of murderering raiders who have been at odds with the North for years across the border and a women whose been married to the Lannisters and Boltons. 

No other house had to put up with that. I wonder why the Lannister's didn't lose their banners? It's not like Tywin didn't end the fighting the most efficient way possible. 

Get real. It's pure sentimentality at this point and a bunch of people who built up a quote they read into a conspiracy. 

Without a better reason they are stupid for getting involved again. 

Really?  I seem to recall the Riverlands was decimated, yet somehow the Blackfish still got an army fighting for him, LOL.

But, okay I get, you hate the Starks, too, no wonder you love the show.

There is no building up to a conspiracy if you are referring to the books.  We know the hill clans are fighting with Stannis on behalf of The Ned's little girl, we know Big Bucket Wull wishes to die bathing in Bolton blood.  We know that Manderly and Glover are trying to get Rickon back.  We know that one of the Umbers has already betrayed the Boltons.  We know that Lady Dustin reminds us that the North fears the Boltons but loves the Starks.....  that's all factual information from the books..

Why the show has decided to make the Starks worthless bumbling idiots and have every house in the North turn on them, I couldn't say.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Really?  I seem to recall the Riverlands was decimated, yet somehow the Blackfish still got an army fighting for him, LOL.

But, okay I get, you hate the Starks, too, no wonder you love the show.

There is no building up to a conspiracy if you are referring to the books.  We know the hill clans are fighting with Stannis on behalf of The Ned's little girl, we know Big Bucket Wull wishes to die bathing in Bolton blood.  We know that Manderly and Glover are trying to get Rickon back.  We know that one of the Umbers has already betrayed the Boltons.  We know that Lady Dustin reminds us that the North fears the Boltons but loves the Starks.....  that's all factual information from the books..

Why the show has decided to make the Starks worthless bumbling idiots and have every house in the North turn on them, I couldn't say.

Exactly if the GNC is not real (fyi I don't think it is either, at least not to the extreme people think it is) no can dispute that ADWD provided enough evidence that "The North Remembers" we got Stannis who 85-90% of his current army is Northerns, we got Wyman, Roose even admits that many of the lords with him right now either are going to take a shot at him when they get a chance or join Stannis is they smell blood in the water

[lancerman]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Really?  I seem to recall the Riverlands was decimated, yet somehow the Blackfish still got an army fighting for him, LOL.

But, okay I get, you hate the Starks, too, no wonder you love the show.

There is no building up to a conspiracy if you are referring to the books.  We know the hill clans are fighting with Stannis on behalf of The Ned's little girl, we know Big Bucket Wull wishes to die bathing in Bolton blood.  We know that Manderly and Glover are trying to get Rickon back.  We know that one of the Umbers has already betrayed the Boltons.  We know that Lady Dustin reminds us that the North fears the Boltons but loves the Starks.....  that's all factual information from the books..

Why the show has decided to make the Starks worthless bumbling idiots and have every house in the North turn on them, I couldn't say.

Did the Blackfish screw the maiden of one of the Lannister's banners and marry her, splitting up the alliance and effectively losing the war? Did the Blackfish let Jamie Lannister go with no gaurantees? Did the Blackfish effectively lose the war for anybody by his own selfish actions? Did Blackfish let a bunch of wildlings across the Wall?

None of that seems to apply to him. Go figure.

The Northerners all have good reasons to not follow a half baked Stark coalition of 2000 Wildlings into war against the most powerful house in the region. They've been completely let down by the Stark's. They might not like the Bolton's but the Stark's own stupidity made the Bolton's having power possible. 

The Stark's even got some support from the hardcore Stark loyalists. It's houses like the Glover's who quite frankly laid out a compelling reason not to follow them. 

 

[Stannistician]

13 minutes ago, lancerman said:

You wonder why? Really? That's strange. 

Maybe because the Northerners are the only ones who had their home attacked and had their liege lord sabotage their efforts so he could his deck wet, while his mom released their most valuable prisoner and faced no repercussions. Maybe because the only Stark's around are a bastard who let a bunch of murderering raiders who have been at odds with the North for years across the border and a women whose been married to the Lannisters and Boltons. 

No other house had to put up with that. I wonder why the Lannister's didn't lose their banners? It's not like Tywin didn't end the fighting the most efficient way possible. 

Get real. It's pure sentimentality at this point and a bunch of people who built up a quote they read into a conspiracy. 

Without a better reason they are stupid for getting involved again. 

But in the show universe it was so vitally important to have a Stark in WF that the Boltons broke their alliance with the Lannisters/ Iron Throne in order to marry Ramsay to Sansa.  The audience was told that this was absolutely necessary to gain the support of the other northern houses.  If the other northern houses really feel this way about the Starks, why was it necessary for Ramsay to marry Sansa in order to appease them?  Seems really stupid of Roose.  And why is Ramsay so keen on getting Sansa back to produce an heir for him?  Why not marry a Karstark or Glover?