Does Jon learn about his parentage due to the death of Rickon Stark? (spoilers potentially)

[Count Winter]

1 minute ago, Lord Friendzone said:

The longer the person stays the better the chance this person could end up like LSH. If R'hllor wants it, they prform it shortly after their death  then anyone can be brought back.

As long as they are complete i guess 

[ViserionsFire]

23 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Of course, the North no more respects all that nonsense than Dorne does.  “Baelish” theft of Winterfell's daughter and eventual inheritance of the house mantle through her occurred long ago with Bael the Bard, and as a fine example of nominative determinism at work it will recur here with Petyr “Pinkie” Baelish as well — be it with a twist or otherwise.

If Sansa's promise to LF in her letter to him is an implied acceptance to marry, I could see her telling the North that Ned raised Jon as his son and that she abdicates her claim to Winterfell in favor of Jon. She would reason that Bran is presumed dead and Arya has disappeared and as the only living son of Ned, it is Jon's right to inherit. 

[TwiceBorn]

On 17.06.2016 at 8:36 PM, Melisandre's Rubies said:

I was referring more to the fact that they don't just stay an open wound. Losing an eye, regardless of whether you die it won't grow back. If you suffer from a severe cut, you will probably be left with a scar even if you survive it. Dondarrion has scars from his wounds but he is not still bleeding, suffering from an infection, etc. They have shown us Dondarrion who bears the scars of his wounds but not unhealed wounds. Jon's wound to his face has healed but he still bears a scar. Similar as to how Tyrion is left with a scar from the Blackwater, whatever the magic it can allow them to come back and heal from the wounds but no more than one would naturally. As for the books, my assumption on LSH's wounds, both physical and mental, not healing fully are in large part because of how long she was dead before she was brought back. 

Assuming then that while one can heal from a burn, one can't heal from being literally roasted. Even now with the technology we have if a certain amount of the body is burned, depth of the burn, impact on internal organs, can still be deadly. We haven't seen any resurrections where someone is missing vital organs except perhaps in wights, but they are walking dead not undead. 

I feel uneasy about the show, because Jon was walking around with non-bleeding holes in his chest and I never saw any stitching. Also since I read Martin in my native language I am not sure if Dondarrion has scars or simply non-bleeding wounds as a dead man would. Then again - if I recall correctly LSH never stitched her throat and needs to cover the hole with a hand to speak and she does not bleed. Also Victarion does not heal his charred hand even though it is functional.

I know Martin is somewhat anchored in Christrian culture where "Doubting Thomas" needs to stick the finger into a wound. This means JS was brought back for a reason and once that goal is accomplished he will leave the mortal realm, just as Jesus did. This is why I don't believe JS has a future. I always believed that Rickon Stark will be the heir, because he is not "fated" like his siblings.

[Net-Viper X]

Dondarions wounds had healed to a degree, they are not just open wounds on his body. He had a dent in his head from the mace, but the flesh was closed up decently, and he had a dent in his chest from the lance, but no hole. He did bleed when injured too, so he was not just a reanimated zombie, but rather resurrected back to life.

LSH was a different issue, she did not seem to have healed at all. She still had rot on her face and the gaping neck wound that did not heal. I don't know if this is just inconsistency with Martin's writing or if LSH is different because she was not brought back in the proper way. Beric was always willingly resurrected by Thoros, while LSH was brought back by Beric passing on his life force without doing the red god ritual and all that. Could be that passing on life the way Beric did taints the magic somehow so it doesn't heal the body like it should.

[ShadowKitteh]

On June 17, 2016 at 4:55 PM, permaximum said:

No. The plot has already stalled hard when Mel resurrected Jon. After that any sane person would call for all the red priests in the realm and pay for their resurrection services. That way he can keep himself and loved ones alive no matter what.

Too bad there wasn't a red priest nearby when Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Oberyn, Stannis, Robert, Barristan etc. died. Through some nonsensical plot armor Jon was resurrected by Mel thanks to Davos' totally out-of-character corpse protection services, then his sudden realization of resurrection as a possiblity and finally his surprising pressure on Melisandre for someone he saw for a few hours at most.

And you still worry the plot may stall...

So the six resurrections of Beric didn't bother you, but Mel's only one, did?

[Chib]

I guess no. Jon will not find out of his heritage this season. I think Jon and the whole continent will only know by the end of next season, make it a cliffhanger. 

[ShadowKitteh]

I like the idea of a letter in the crypt, but it could only be from Lyanna. No one else had any reason to write one, but she knew she was dying.

Benjen must know about the charm on the cave, and the charm on the wall. He will also know that Bran's been marked (or he should, since he knows all about the 3ER, and that Bran is the new one.) Benjen will have to get Bran safe, but how can he let him so south of the wall, unless.... 

.....what if Benjen is controlled by the Night King, and he needs Bran to bring down The Wall?

 

[ShamblerBob]

On 6/18/2016 at 9:34 AM, TickTak7 said:

I agree. 

However, the reveal of his parentage combined with a potential victory for him at Winterfell, combined with the whole coming back from the dead thing, is a pretty good campaign platform if he is to be the new King in the North. 

The North never seemed to care very much for the Targaryens. So being the son of some Targaryen upstart would weaken his claim to the seat.  If it turns out he is NOT the son of Ned Stark, then this is information he'd best keep to himself. The Kings of the North came from the Stark line. 

As for the rising from the dead bit, the North follow the Old Gods. Eastern rituals that bring back the dead would engender suspicion.  Especially if it involves a lot of folk being burnt alive. So it might be best if he downplays any rumours about that as well. 

 

Quote

 

Don't forget, the Northern lords appointed Robb Stark as their King in the North - he wasn't a legitimate King or someone that was recognized by the crown, just someone the North appointed on their own. 

The North could do the very same to Jon Snow

 

They could - they follow their own rules. Hence Jon being illegitimate, but a northman, would be more likely a stronger claim than unknowingly being the son of some southern invader. 

[Chib]

12 minutes ago, ShamblerBob said:

The North never seemed to care very much for the Targaryens. So being the son of some Targaryen upstart would weaken his claim to the seat.  If it turns out he is NOT the son of Ned Stark, then this is information he'd best keep to himself. The Kings of the North came from the Stark line. 

As for the rising from the dead bit, the North follow the Old Gods. Eastern rituals that bring back the dead would engender suspicion.  Especially if it involves a lot of folk being burnt alive. So it might be best if he downplays any rumours about that as well. 

They could - they follow their own rules. Hence Jon being illegitimate, but a northman, would be more likely a stronger claim than unknowingly being the son of some southern invader. 

Well, Jon's heritage will not be revealed by the end of season 6 it seems. By the time his heritage will be revealed, I think people of the north would have become quite loyal to him as he is leading them against the WW. 

[ShamblerBob]

21 minutes ago, Chib said:

Well, Jon's heritage will not be revealed by the end of season 6 it seems. By the time his heritage will be revealed, I think people of the north would have become quite loyal to him as he is leading them against the WW. 

Yes - if they are loyal to him, they will be loyal to him DESPITE his ancestry, not because of it. 

The other possibility is that someone will use it to prevent Jon from assuming the title of King of the North, or Lord of Winterfell. Possibly, Littlefinger - i.e. Littlefinger will reveal that Jon is not the son of Ned Stark and then use this to gain control of Winterfell himself. 
 

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

So the six resurrections of Beric didn't bother you, but Mel's only one, did?

Funny thing that, eh?  

We also have Benjen being miraculously saved from becoming an undead thrall to the Others so that he could rescue Bran when all hope seemed lost

Then there’s the entire original miracle of the birth of dragons woken from stone. How much more unlikely could things be?

And the red comet, sheesh.  

When people write epic tales, epic things occur.  I don't know why this surprises some.

[Chib]

7 minutes ago, ShamblerBob said:

Yes - if they are loyal to him, they will be loyal to him DESPITE his ancestry, not because of it. 

The other possibility is that someone will use it to prevent Jon from assuming the title of King of the North, or Lord of Winterfell. Possibly, Littlefinger - i.e. Littlefinger will reveal that Jon is not the son of Ned Stark and then use this to gain control of Winterfell himself. 
 

It is possible but people in the north seem to believe in the power of the leader other than some credibility claim. If Sansa or Bran by that time stand up for Jon, LF can't do anything. The issue is Sansa, will she stand up for Jon is another matter, if she knows he is not her true brother but cousin, she might want to take it back, but will people listen to her is another matter, she has married to both Lannister and Bolton after all. Bran might have more weight if he says anything, though. People in the north would be all for Jon if he leads them to a victory against the WW. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

46 minutes ago, ShamblerBob said:

The North never seemed to care very much for the Targaryens. So being the son of some Targaryen upstart would weaken his claim to the seat.  If it turns out he is NOT the son of Ned Stark, then this is information he'd best keep to himself. The Kings of the North came from the Stark line. 

But Jon is from the Stark line, so he has nothing to keep quiet about.

The Starks have continued through the female line before, you know.

[ShamblerBob]

8 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

But Jon is from the Stark line, so he has nothing to keep quiet about.

The Starks have continued through the female line before, you know.

 

I agree: the North could overlook his dodgy Targaryen ancestry. 

In which case, I wonder what purpose the whole Targaryen ancestry thing serves in his character arc. At best, it seems that most people think it's irrelevant. 

[illinifan]

14 hours ago, Count Winter said:

Can anyone be brought back at anytime?

I do not know.  Jon is obviously important to the story but I am not sure why Beric keeps being brought back.

[Ser Creighton]

I think Bran in episode 10 will give some sort of reveal to the audience, I don't think it will be a full reveal, but enough to give the audience an idea of the worst kept secret in literature. Last episode usually wraps things up and gives us some insight into next season along with a cliffhanger. Jon will be King in the North no question, it makes sense for his arc on the show. Even in the books, though I don't think it occurs the same way. Or at least not the exact same way, but will be similar. 

 

[Chib]

1 hour ago, ShamblerBob said:

I agree: the North could overlook his dodgy Targaryen ancestry. 
In which case, I wonder what purpose the whole Targaryen ancestry thing serves in his character arc. At best, it seems that most people think it's irrelevant. 

I think Jon being a half Stark half Tag means something about defeating the WW and that's it.  

[Ser Goosey]

On 6/17/2016 at 0:38 PM, TickTak7 said:

I'm not expecting Melisandre to survive this season, which would help deal with that particular plot issue. 

The only reason why we haven't got the final R + L = J Tower of Joy reveal yet, is because they seem to be trying to coincide Bran's flashback with when Jon finds out in real time about his parentage. 

The crypts / harp theory and explanation isn't a bad one. I do hope it's something more literal - like Jon connects the dots on his own, rather than it being something silly supernatural like Bran whispering it to him or something. 

I wonder if they will try to make use of the whole "Targs = fire proof" thing on the show during the battle? Maybe Jon gets burnt, but turns out he's actually OK or resistant to it, which might cause him to be more alert. 

Jon burned his hands defending Mormont in season 1. 

[RhaenysBee]

5 minutes ago, Chib said:

I think Jon being a half Stark half Tag means something about defeating the WW and that's it.  

My best, most progressive and most broad minded guess is that Jon being half Targ and half Stark means that neither fire nor ice is to be ultimately defeated. They are to cooperate. They are in a way like yin and yang, completing each other for balance. Without each other they are both destructive, but together they bring the best out of each other and achieve piece and prosperity. Ice and fire, Stark and Targ being the symbols for opposites in general. Jon represents this balance and alliance, he will bring peace freedom justice and security to his new Empire. Because yay peace, yay metaphors, yay anti war message. 

Really, I just want him to sit the Iron Throne as Rhaegar's heir and rule the seven kingdoms and kill the bad guys, because I'm petty like that and progressive messages are boring. 

[ilikethesebooks]

I feel like this is more probable than less probable after this episode and the specific mention of the crypts