MoonKnight21

Tyrion + Sansa potentially Reunite

162 posts in this topic

He quite possibly thinks that she helped frame him for killing Joffery on purpose. He might not be happy about that.

He's still a Lannister, whom she was forced to marry - whose House is responsible for a lot of bad things happening to her own family. That's going to be hard for her to overlook.

Plus, she might very well be done with relationships for a while, if not permanently, after Ramsay. And Littlefinger's perving on her.

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If Sansa loses Littlefinger Tyrion is all she has got left. And Littlefinger won't remain in the show for long, I guess.

Sandor is another possibility but that would be awkward and stupid.

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Tyrion and Sansa are married. Sansa has matured. I hope that she and Tyrion are reunited, and she comes to realize he did everything he could for her.

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I am certainly interested to see what happens if they do reunite. Presumably their marriage was considered annulled when she married Ramsay, but it's overall unclear. I still think it would be epic for the story to end with a Stark-Lannister alliance through Sansa and Tyrion and Jon as the embodiment of the Stark-Targ alliance. I have no idea what will happen with Dany. 

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I think I already said that but probably it was in the ASOIAF section, I think there are chances they will reunite (if he doesn't die at the end) and personally I would like it (it may be just an allegiance after they annull, a political marriage between friends/allies or a 'true' marriage... love would be a nice bonus):

1) the marriage is still valid (at least legally it should)

all we know is a marriage which is not consummated is annullable by the High Septon.

in the books, there's no question, they're still married; In the show, she was married off to Ramsay and he raped her (consummation), but the former marriage (not consummated) was never formally and properly annulled by the competent authorities (High Septon) before she was given to Ramsay, so people argued either:

 x) the second marriage made the first irrelevant because it was consummated while the first wasn’t  

y) he second marriage is illegitimate because the first one was never annulled  (Littlefinger and Ramsay just decided by themselves that the first marriage was irrelevant and could be set aside with no formality of any sort because it wasn’t consummated) and therefore Ramsay just raped and took as a wife a woman who was in fact still married with another man.

Personally I think x) is wrong; it may be my inner lawyer talking but technically y) is the correct answer, for there is a difference between ‘null’ and ‘annullable’. Null means something is invalid, annullable means it’s valid until you annull it. So basically the lack of consummation gives you the chance to get rid of the marriage, makes the marriage annullable hence precarious, but not null.. which means that if you don’t annull it, it’s still valid.

Now in all honesty I don’t know if the show, being a show, will appreciate the difference, it’s even possible it won’t matter… it depends on Sansa’s endgame

2) See GRRM nodding here when Sophie Turner says she wishes for Tyrion+Sansa to be reunited and become a power couple in Westeros:

Unless he changed his mind (I don't think it was misdirection, it was just the smallest thing).

3) real history behind both GoT/ASOIAF: their marriage might be inspired by Henry VII and Elizabeth of York's marriage which ended the War of the Roses

Despite Richard III being the main inspiration behind Tyrion, Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage seems to be inspired by real history marriage between Henry VII Tudor - descendant of an illegitimate branch of House Lancaster, red rose (=Lannister) - and Elizabeth of House York, white rose (= Stark), which ended the War of the Roses (Henry decided to adopt, as the Tudor rose, a combination of the white York rose + red Lancaster rose).

The marriage was set only for political reasons, but in the long run, they grew to really love each other (as stated both in Henry’s and Elizabeth’s biographies), plus there is a lot of private corrispondence proving that he was a very kind husband and father (and when she died giving childbirth to their last daughter, he shut himself alone in some place and refused to talk to anyone for days, became sick because he was heartbroken, almost died and he never remarried…this detail might have inspired Tywin’s storyline).

Now there are a good number of similarities: Elizabeth of York lived a very troublesome period in the years before her marriage because her younger brothers disappeared and their fate was unknown (Richard III was accused of mudering them, in the show that's Theon's storyline), she was red haired, known for being kind to her servants and she loved music and dancing. Henry VII was known for being high-spirited and very intelligent (though not handsome) and he proved to be a great reformer, he saw to the restoration of political stability in England and to many administrative, economic and diplomatic initiatives praised by historians, leaving a safe throne, a solvent government and a prosperous and reasonably united country when he died.

I’m not stating Tyron’s destiny = Henry’s destiny (Tyrion’s main inspiration was Henry’s former enemy Richard III, the ‘deformed’ misunderstood king and I’m not even sure Tyrion will be alive in the end and anyway it would be difficult if not impossible for a dwarf to become king) but it’s quite safe to assume GRRM had this marriage in mind, whatever he decides to make of it (if Daenerys dies and Sansa somehow gets the IT, Tyrion might even become Sansa's Hand; if Daenerys rules, they could de facto unite the realm if she ended up inheriting Winterfell and he Casterly Rock; etc. etc., there are so many possibilities). It's also possible they reunite, then he dies and she ends up as a sort of Elizabeth I (which is a possibility at this point) ... it would make me terribly sad to see him dead though (I would prefer if they got to be reunited as allies - or even lovers - but without resuming the marriage, so that she would still be a single Queen, but he would be alive).

Edited by Elisabetta Duò

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6 hours ago, Kytheros said:

He quite possibly thinks that she helped frame him for killing Joffery on purpose. He might not be happy about that.

Plus, she might very well be done with relationships for a while, if not permanently, after Ramsay. And Littlefinger's perving on her.

The second thing you said is a possibility, especially if they want to turn her into some kind of Elizabeth I,  but the first one is not true. He doesn't think that, neither in the show nor in the books,

Spoiler

not even in his dark period (it's not in the show) where he's depressed, suicidal, angry with everyone, including Sansa for abandoning him (he never ever thought she framed him).

 

Edited by Elisabetta Duò

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I love love seeing Peter and Sophie together on screen, so I'm really hoping we get a Tyrion/Sansa reunion sometime in season 7. It'll be interesting to see how they interact. I definitely don't think Tyrion is upset with her over her leaving King's Landing, but I do think he'd like to know why she did, and I think that's where she'd come in and be like, "Littlefinger whisked me away to the Eyrie and then gave me to the Boltons." 

It'll be interesting/sad to see Tyrion's expression when Sansa tells him Ramsay was the one to take her virginity. I don't think he knew too much about the Bolton's, but I think he'd believe her if she told him what a lunatic Ramsay was.

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13 minutes ago, iceheart91 said:

I love love seeing Peter and Sophie together on screen, so I'm really hoping we get a Tyrion/Sansa reunion sometime in season 7. It'll be interesting to see how they interact. I definitely don't think Tyrion is upset with her over her leaving King's Landing, but I do think he'd like to know why she did, and I think that's where she'd come in and be like, "Littlefinger whisked me away to the Eyrie and then gave me to the Boltons." 

It'll be interesting/sad to see Tyrion's expression when Sansa tells him Ramsay was the one to take her virginity. I don't think he knew too much about the Bolton's, but I think he'd believe her if she told him what a lunatic Ramsay was.

I loved them together as well. I think Tyrion genuinely respected her as a Lady of Winterfell. They seemed to strike up a friendship despite their forced marriage. 

I'm hoping the two re-unite...  they will be a powerful couple.

Edited by MoonKnight21

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On 6/28/2016 at 0:24 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

I think I already said that but probably it was in the ASOIAF section, I think there are chances they will reunite (if he doesn't die at the end) and personally I would like it (it may be just an allegiance after they annull, a political marriage between friends/allies or a 'true' marriage... love would be a nice bonus):

1) the marriage is still valid (at least legally it should)

all we know is a marriage which is not consummated is annullable by the High Septon.

in the books, there's no question, they're still married; In the show, she was married off to Ramsay and he raped her (consummation), but the former marriage (not consummated) was never formally and properly annulled by the competent authorities (High Septon) before she was given to Ramsay, so people argued either:

 x) the second marriage made the first irrelevant because it was consummated while the first wasn’t  

y) he second marriage is illegitimate because the first one was never annulled  (Littlefinger and Ramsay just decided by themselves that the first marriage was irrelevant and could be set aside with no formality of any sort because it wasn’t consummated) and therefore Ramsay just raped and took as a wife a woman who was in fact still married with another man.

Personally I think x) is wrong; it may be my inner lawyer talking but technically y) is the correct answer, for there is a difference between ‘null’ and ‘annullable’. Null means something is invalid, annullable means it’s valid until you annull it. So basically the lack of consummation gives you the chance to get rid of the marriage, makes the marriage annullable hence precarious, but not null.. which means that if you don’t annull it, it’s still valid.

Now in all honesty I don’t know if the show, being a show, will appreciate the difference, it’s even possible it won’t matter… it depends on Sansa’s endgame

2) See GRRM nodding here when Sophie Turner says she wishes for Tyrion+Sansa to be reunited and become a power couple in Westeros:

Unless he changed his mind (I don't think it was misdirection, it was just the smallest thing).

3) real history behind both GoT/ASOIAF: their marriage might be inspired by Henry VII and Elizabeth of York's marriage which ended the War of the Roses

Despite Richard III being the main inspiration behind Tyrion, Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage seems to be inspired by real history marriage between Henry VII Tudor - descendant of an illegitimate branch of House Lancaster, red rose (=Lannister) - and Elizabeth of House York, white rose (= Stark), which ended the War of the Roses (Henry decided to adopt, as the Tudor rose, a combination of the white York rose + red Lancaster rose).

The marriage was set only for political reasons, but in the long run, they grew to really love each other (as stated both in Henry’s and Elizabeth’s biographies), plus there is a lot of private corrispondence proving that he was a very kind husband and father (and when she died giving childbirth to their last daughter, he shut himself alone in some place and refused to talk to anyone for days, became sick because he was heartbroken, almost died and he never remarried…this detail might have inspired Tywin’s storyline).

Now there are a good number of similarities: Elizabeth of York lived a very troublesome period in the years before her marriage because her younger brothers disappeared and their fate was unknown (Richard III was accused of mudering them, in the show that's Theon's storyline), she was red haired, known for being kind to her servants and she loved music and dancing. Henry VII was known for being high-spirited and very intelligent (though not handsome) and he proved to be a great reformer, he saw to the restoration of political stability in England and to many administrative, economic and diplomatic initiatives praised by historians, leaving a safe throne, a solvent government and a prosperous and reasonably united country when he died.

I’m not stating Tyron’s destiny = Henry’s destiny (Tyrion’s main inspiration was Henry’s former enemy Richard III, the ‘deformed’ misunderstood king and I’m not even sure Tyrion will be alive in the end and anyway it would be difficult if not impossible for a dwarf to become king) but it’s quite safe to assume GRRM had this marriage in mind, whatever he decides to make of it (if Daenerys dies and Sansa somehow gets the IT, Tyrion might even become Sansa's Hand; if Daenerys rules, they could de facto unite the realm if she ended up inheriting Winterfell and he Casterly Rock; etc. etc., there are so many possibilities). It's also possible they reunite, then he dies and she ends up as a sort of Elizabeth I (which is a possibility at this point) ... it would make me terribly sad to see him dead though (I would prefer if they got to be reunited as allies - or even lovers - but without resuming the marriage, so that she would still be a single Queen, but he would be alive).

Wow - this may be the best post I've read in these forums.  Kudos!

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Elizabetta Duo, this is a great Post!

The only nitpicking would be that I cannot see how Sansa could get any claim to the throne on her own right.  I think she would have to be someone's queen consort first. The only possibility would be as wife and queen of whoever is king or as queen regent to a child from this guy if that King is dead. Since Jon is not her brother but her cousin I cannot see Sansa getting a claim via Jon as his sister and legal successor. 

Baelish getting the throne, Sansa marrying him and then.... But your post has made clear where all the legal complications lie.

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I will be interested to see how they have them interact with each other, if they do.  I don't think at the time Sansa fully appreciated all that Tyrion saved her from.  He was a Lannister to her, granted a much less terrible Lannister but still.  Now after being through the hell that she has, will she be more cordial with him now that she knows how he could have treated her, realized in retrospect all he tried to save her from.

Could be very interesting dynamic between them.  Not saying anything about if they are still married or not (I don't think they are and don't think either of them would press the issue anyway and just let it be "annulled" in everyone's minds).  But just with what both have been through and all, has potential to be some interesting scenes on character development.

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I think they will only reunite on the beginning of season 8 when Tyrion and Daenerys will go North to fight the Others. 

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On 6/28/2016 at 11:24 AM, Elisabetta Duò said:

1) the marriage is still valid (at least legally it should)

all we know is a marriage which is not consummated is annullable by the High Septon.

There seems to be a flaw in your basic premise here.  The North does not follow the Faith of the Seven.  Given that,  I would expect that the final say,  at least as far as the North is concerned,   would fall back on their new king,  Jon.      

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i also think Tyrion and Sansas marriage is still valid. after Sansa will finally understand that Littlefinger is also just playing games with her she may very well see, that Tyrion is the only man who treated her with care and respect. now in this world this isnt enough for a lasting relationship, but in the powerhungry world of GoT a bond between the Starks and the Lannisters can pay off very well for both sides. with Cersei being out of the way soon (yeah, i think Arya will kill her next and if not she will be dead until the end of next season anyway), Tyrion may very well be the first choice for Sansa. at some point Tyrion will reveal Littlefingers involvement in the killing of her father. and bang! another powercouple ready to ship.

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On 28 de junho de 2016 at 1:24 PM, Elisabetta Duò said:

 

3) real history behind both GoT/ASOIAF: their marriage might be inspired by Henry VII and Elizabeth of York's marriage which ended the War of the Roses

Despite Richard III being the main inspiration behind Tyrion, Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage seems to be inspired by real history marriage between Henry VII Tudor - descendant of an illegitimate branch of House Lancaster, red rose (=Lannister) - and Elizabeth of House York, white rose (= Stark), which ended the War of the Roses (Henry decided to adopt, as the Tudor rose, a combination of the white York rose + red Lancaster rose).

The marriage was set only for political reasons, but in the long run, they grew to really love each other (as stated both in Henry’s and Elizabeth’s biographies), plus there is a lot of private corrispondence proving that he was a very kind husband and father (and when she died giving childbirth to their last daughter, he shut himself alone in some place and refused to talk to anyone for days, became sick because he was heartbroken, almost died and he never remarried…this detail might have inspired Tywin’s storyline).

Now there are a good number of similarities: Elizabeth of York lived a very troublesome period in the years before her marriage because her younger brothers disappeared and their fate was unknown (Richard III was accused of mudering them, in the show that's Theon's storyline), she was red haired, known for being kind to her servants and she loved music and dancing. Henry VII was known for being high-spirited and very intelligent (though not handsome) and he proved to be a great reformer, he saw to the restoration of political stability in England and to many administrative, economic and diplomatic initiatives praised by historians, leaving a safe throne, a solvent government and a prosperous and reasonably united country when he died.

I’m not stating Tyron’s destiny = Henry’s destiny (Tyrion’s main inspiration was Henry’s former enemy Richard III, the ‘deformed’ misunderstood king and I’m not even sure Tyrion will be alive in the end and anyway it would be difficult if not impossible for a dwarf to become king) but it’s quite safe to assume GRRM had this marriage in mind, whatever he decides to make of it (if Daenerys dies and Sansa somehow gets the IT, Tyrion might even become Sansa's Hand; if Daenerys rules, they could de facto unite the realm if she ended up inheriting Winterfell and he Casterly Rock; etc. etc., there are so many possibilities). It's also possible they reunite, then he dies and she ends up as a sort of Elizabeth I (which is a possibility at this point) ... it would make me terribly sad to see him dead though (I would prefer if they got to be reunited as allies - or even lovers - but without resuming the marriage, so that she would still be a single Queen, but he would be alive).

I really like your theory and would love to see them reunite. I just don't think they'll be sitting on the IT, though. However, I can see Dany sitting and since she made him her Hand, maybe that's how the alliance happens. This whole dynamic seems plausible on the show but I always try to see how it would plan out on the books since the end game will be the same. After all she went through it's possible she starts looking at Tyrion differently and accepts the marriage on the show.

On the book though, there's no Ramsay for her and hopefully, Harry the Heir won't abuse her, I just don't think she's quite there to appreciate how Tyrion treated her. But I do hope, somehow, she realizes it and they reunite.

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5 hours ago, IceSyckel said:

Wow - this may be the best post I've read in these forums.  Kudos!

thank you, very kind of you

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There's no doubt that Tyrion respected Sansa and was as kind to her as circumstances permitted. Though as much as I ship them, I'm not sure I see any future for them. It isn't as if Sansa doesn't have any other options. Or more to the point obligations. A union between Sansa and Sweetrobin is pretty much necessary now to keep the Vale aligned with the North and to pry Littlefinger's claws out of him.

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5 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Elizabetta Duo, this is a great Post!

The only nitpicking would be that I cannot see how Sansa could get any claim to the throne on her own right.  I think she would have to be someone's queen consort first. The only possibility would be as wife and queen of whoever is king or as queen regent to a child from this guy if that King is dead. Since Jon is not her brother but her cousin I cannot see Sansa getting a claim via Jon as his sister and legal successor. 

Baelish getting the throne, Sansa marrying him and then.... But your post has made clear where all the legal complications lie.

You are right, she is in a worse position than Elizabeth I was. I mean, she was a young red haired girl, a totally unlike candidate for the throne, being a bastard after Anne Boleyn fell (that's why nobody killed her when she was a child, probably) but still, she was Henry VIII's daughter, while there is no Targaryen, no Baratheron and no Lannister blood in her.

I'm not really sure about how wills work tho…I mean in the books Robb left Sansa out because she married a Lannister, legitimized Jon and declared him his heir. I don't know if you can declare your heir somebody who is not a relative (for example, a friend, a love interest, etc.). I guess knowing how wills work would be very interesting and potentially relevant (even if, I guess more in the books than in the show).

If there is a certain degree of elasticity with wills, she could be named heir by somebody and gain the throne that way. Or, she might end up controlling somehow Winterfell (if Jon died) and/or the Vale (if Littlefinger and Robyn died and Robyn made her heir) and/or Riverrun (if the Tully had no better choice); this might potentially make her de facto a player in the GoT. I've never seen her as a 'creature of the north' (Jon and Arya are) but she might end up as Queen of the North if Jon died, she might also control the Vale and/or Riverrun. Assuming she was Tyrion's ally, they would have Casterly Rock as well. It would be quite difficult for the others to fight against them.

Still, you're right, marriages are probably the easiest way. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

About the technicalities, it's even possible they just ignore them alltogether, being GoT "just" a TV show, I don't know. An easy way out to justify Sansa's marriage to Ramsey (or to whomever else, before Tyrion comes back) and at the same time have her resuming her marriage to Tyrion would be 'Sansa married again not out of lack of consummation, but because her husband was presumed dead'): so when he shows up again, then they are still married.

Now in our real world you need to wait a certain amount of time (years, in my country) before you can legally claim that a person who vanished is 'presumed dead', so her marriage to Ramsey would be illegittimate in any case. But we don't know how it works in Westeros, I don't think GRRM ever clarified this detail, so that would be an easy way out.

Edited by Elisabetta Duò

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On 28/06/2016 at 10:48 PM, crlovel said:

Tyrion and Sansa are married. Sansa has matured. I hope that she and Tyrion are reunited, and she comes to realize he did everything he could for her.

Yes, tyrion was the best thing that ever happened for Sansa 

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