Jaqen's capture

[aryagonnakill#2]

24 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Not even in the slightest at all. As a FM She would  wear a face, so she wouldn't be "Arya Stark."  Her family and royalty is irrelevant to her career as an assassin 
 

You have no way of knowing that a FM never wears their own face.  Even if she didn't, she could certainly put it back on.  A Westerosi would always consider Arya Stark Arya Stark.

[devilish]

45 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Not even in the slightest at all. As a FM She would  wear a face, so she wouldn't be "Arya Stark."  Her family and royalty is irrelevant to her career as an assassin 
 

You're not understanding my point

The very fact that a magister, a first sword of Bravos and a faceless man were at the red keep at a very delicate time of Westeros history suggest 2 things

a- that all the major institutions in Bravoos are connecting. the magister provide governance, the IB provide wealth and the faceless men are the hidden arm of its military (a sort of SS). I find it very difficult to believe that these extremely powerful institutions can live in one city without ripping each other eyes off to gain dominance over the city. The faceless men can kill any leader on earth, the iron bank can finance an enormous army and take control over the city and the Sea Lords/Magisters will not be happy having two institutions who can easily top them up from power. That unless they are part of a unique structure of governance. 

b- there's plans from Bravoos to dominate Westeros politics. Varys had infiltrated the small council. Ilyio had sealed a deal between the Targs, the dothraki and the golden company. Ned wanted a tutor for his kid and voila, Syrio appears out of nowhere. 

 Arya would be turned into a Bravoosi puppet, who can switch from an assassin who kill any anti IB dissendents to Arya Stark a potential queen and ally to any pro Bravoosi agenda king (a sort of Reek who became Theon to convince the ironborn to abandon moat cailin). Having a queen whose completely devoted to the faceless men aka to Braavoos is quite handy, especially if she happens to be sister of the Warden of the North, cousin to the Warden of the Vale and niece to the LP of the Riverlands. If lets say she's in KL and she can keep her husband + the court in line, removing any potential weed that might grow around the iron throne then the better. 

[Red Man Racey]

22 hours ago, Tini said:

That seems the most likely explanation to me.

We know that Faceless Men can change faces. But they cannot do it without preparation - they need a face, need to prepare the face, need an opportunity to apply the face. If Jaqen got caught committing a crime (or if he got caught for a crime committed by the person whose face he was wearing), he may not have had the opportunity to change faces. Not before being sent to prison, and not while in prison.

This is not what we see when Jaqen leaves Arya -- he simply passes his hand over his face and *poof* new face. Unless of course what he reveals to Arya is in fact his natural face and he was simply removing the old disguise.

Also, on the subject of his and Arya's parting, what bothers me is that he never receives a new mission. He's in the Black Cells, he begins the journey north, he joins the forces at Harrenhal, and then he travels to Oldtown to infiltrate the Citadel. Is the mission to the Citadel the mission he was on from the beginning? It must be because he seemingly never receives a new mission, so we must conclude that he is on the same mission the entire time. Is it a single mission with multiple tasks? Was some component task of the operation in King's Landing? It's all very vexing.

[a black swan]

22 hours ago, Tini said:

That seems the most likely explanation to me.

We know that Faceless Men can change faces. But they cannot do it without preparation - they need a face, need to prepare the face, need an opportunity to apply the face. If Jaqen got caught committing a crime (or if he got caught for a crime committed by the person whose face he was wearing), he may not have had the opportunity to change faces. Not before being sent to prison, and not while in prison.

They use glamors.

"Is Jaqen H'ghar a priest too? Do you know if Jaqen will be coming back to Braavos?"

"Who?" he said, all innocence.

"Jaqen H'ghar. He gave me the iron coin."

"I know no one by this name, child."

"I asked him how he changed his face, and he said it was no harder than taking a new name, if you knew the way." "Did he?" "Will you show me how to change my face?"

"If you wish." He cupped her chin in his hand and turned her head. "Puff up your cheeks and stick out your tongue." Arya puffed up her cheeks and stuck out her tongue. "There. Your face is changed."

"That's not how I meant. Jaqen used magic."

"All sorcery comes at a cost, child. Years of prayer and sacrifice and study are required to work a proper glamor." - AFFC

fffr

17 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

Also, on the subject of his and Arya's parting, what bothers me is that he never receives a new mission. He's in the Black Cells, he begins the journey north, he joins the forces at Harrenhal, and then he travels to Oldtown to infiltrate the Citadel. Is the mission to the Citadel the mission he was on from the beginning? It must be because he seemingly never receives a new mission, so we must conclude that he is on the same mission the entire time. Is it a single mission with multiple tasks? Was some component task of the operation in King's Landing? It's all very vexing.

"Please don't go, Jaqen." "Jaqen is as dead as Arry," he said sadly, "and I have promises to keep." - ACoK

Suggesting he has other commitments to attend to. 

[Nevets]

6 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

This is not what we see when Jaqen leaves Arya -- he simply passes his hand over his face and *poof* new face. Unless of course what he reveals to Arya is in fact his natural face and he was simply removing the old disguise.

Also, on the subject of his and Arya's parting, what bothers me is that he never receives a new mission. He's in the Black Cells, he begins the journey north, he joins the forces at Harrenhal, and then he travels to Oldtown to infiltrate the Citadel. Is the mission to the Citadel the mission he was on from the beginning? It must be because he seemingly never receives a new mission, so we must conclude that he is on the same mission the entire time. Is it a single mission with multiple tasks? Was some component task of the operation in King's Landing? It's all very vexing.

There was plenty of time after he left Arya for him to have traveled back to Braavos, told his masters about Arya, and gotten a new assignment in Oldtown, and then travel to Oldtown.  Ship travel, as we have seen, is relatively fast, certainly faster than by land.  He has about 3-4 months, which is plenty of time.

8 hours ago, devilish said:

Arya would be turned into a Bravoosi puppet, who can switch from an assassin who kill any anti IB dissendents to Arya Stark a potential queen and ally to any pro Bravoosi agenda king (a sort of Reek who became Theon to convince the ironborn to abandon moat cailin). Having a queen whose completely devoted to the faceless men aka to Braavoos is quite handy, especially if she happens to be sister of the Warden of the North, cousin to the Warden of the Vale and niece to the LP of the Riverlands. If lets say she's in KL and she can keep her husband + the court in line, removing any potential weed that might grow around the iron throne then the better. 

What makes you think Arya is going to remain with the FM?   If George were planning to make her a full-fledged assassin in the time remaining, she would be on the fast track.  Instead she is farting around with being Cat, Blind Beth, and killing an insurance broker of no great importance.  In the preview chapter

she is working in a theater, probably learning acting and disguises.  Certainly not major assassin stuff or any kind of magic.

 I fully expect a break of some sort with the FM and a return to Westeros.  Although I do think it possible that she will be tied to them in some way, possibly owing them a fasvor, for example.  But I honestly can't see her as a dedicated agent for the FM or Braavos.

 

I am also hard-pressed to see any reason for Jasqen to have willingly placed himself in the black cells.  If he needed access to the cells themselves, it would have been easier to masquerade as a jailer.  If he needed to join the NW, he can simply pretend to be a petty criminal sent to the Wall with everyone else.  There were about 20, I think.  I therefore think he somehow got caught.  I also think that their reputation may well be exaggerated.  While they are regarded as being very good, that doesn't mean perfect, and our information that an FM contract is a good as death comes from Littlefinger.  I'm not sure I trust either him or his sources.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Littlefinger hired a Faceless Man to kill Ned.

[Macgregor of the North]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Littlefinger hired a Faceless Man to kill Ned.

Could you clarify again your reasons exactly why LF would hire the extremely expensive FM to kill Ned Stark.

[devilish]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

she is working in a theater, probably learning acting and disguises.  Certainly not major assassin stuff or any kind of magic.

 I fully expect a break of some sort with the FM and a return to Westeros.  Although I do think it possible that she will be tied to them in some way, possibly owing them a fasvor, for example.  But I honestly can't see her as a dedicated agent for the FM or Braavos.

 

I am also hard-pressed to see any reason for Jasqen to have willingly placed himself in the black cells.  If he needed access to the cells themselves, it would have been easier to masquerade as a jailer.  If he needed to join the NW, he can simply pretend to be a petty criminal sent to the Wall with everyone else.  There were about 20, I think.  I therefore think he somehow got caught.  I also think that their reputation may well be exaggerated.  While they are regarded as being very good, that doesn't mean perfect, and our information that an FM contract is a good as death comes from Littlefinger.  I'm not sure I trust either him or his sources.

 

 Well maybe that's part of her training. I am not debating on whether the FM will succeed in turning Arya in what they want. What I am debating is

A- That there's a sort of link between IB, Faceless men and the Sealords, which explain why these three powerful entites live peacefully together instead of skinning one another at Bravos and why Ilyio, Varys, Jaqen and Syrio were at the red keep at the same time and in a delicate period of Westerosi history

B- There's some sort of Bravoosi plan to infiltrate Westeros power in the same way a powerful multinational would do with a democratic capitalist country. Arya, Aegon, Danny and Viserys were all helped by people from Braavos who saved them and gave them an army (GC and dothraki). Ilyio himself plan to be master of coin. Do you think that they did it out of the kindness of their hearts?

[Tini]

18 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

This is not what we see when Jaqen leaves Arya -- he simply passes his hand over his face and *poof* new face. Unless of course what he reveals to Arya is in fact his natural face and he was simply removing the old disguise.

Also, on the subject of his and Arya's parting, what bothers me is that he never receives a new mission. He's in the Black Cells, he begins the journey north, he joins the forces at Harrenhal, and then he travels to Oldtown to infiltrate the Citadel. Is the mission to the Citadel the mission he was on from the beginning? It must be because he seemingly never receives a new mission, so we must conclude that he is on the same mission the entire time. Is it a single mission with multiple tasks? Was some component task of the operation in King's Landing? It's all very vexing.

My bad. I should start rereading. But if he got arrested, changing his face won't help him - he'd still be stuck in chains or in a cell. Changing his looks would not set him free, but it might give him away as a Faceless Man - or, at least, a magic user. He had to break free before his ability to assume new looks would be helpful.

A part of his  journey is due to the fact that he owed Arya 3 deaths. If they had split he would not have been able to pay her back. I think it indicates that his mission isn't time critical.  Or it indicates that he was not on a mission anymore, that he had fulfilled his mission before he was taken prisoner and met Arya. He may have gone to Oldtown on his way home.

I don't conclude that he must be on the same mission because we never saw him receive orders. We don't know what happened after he and Arya split. The Faceless Men may not know where he would be at a specific time - but they could always leave messages for him in places previously agreed upon. In Oldtown, for example, a place he might pass on his way back to them.

If he was on the same mission all the time, if he has been hired to kill a specific person, he may not know where that person is.  He may have been travelling towards his destination / target, then learned that his target moved. If he were after Aemon and Sam, for example, going North makes sense. But if he learns that those two left the Wall, were sighted in Braavos, or heading for the Citadel, he would adjust his journey accordingly.

 

[YOVMO]

On 11/18/2016 at 11:49 AM, devilish said:

There's no better assassins in Planetos then the faceless men. Once they set their sight on somebody then that person is as good as dead. They are quite expensive too. LF state that to hire a faceless man you need to spend as much as two armies of common sellswords.

Which makes me wonder. How the hell Jaqen ended up caged? An elite assassin who can even change appearance should have been able to avoid that and even if he's captured he should be able to escape and leave the place without attracting too much attention. 

In my opinion Jaqen was at the right place at the right time and his job was to observe and even recruit Arya Stark. Think about it. Westeros was in the brink of war and economic collapse. With the IT owing so much money to the IB, its only fair for them to make sure that whoever sits on the IT is ready to pay. Arya characteristics are quite unique

a- Arya originate from one of the strongest houses in Westeros. She also have powerful relatives in the Vale and the Riverlands. Similarly to her sister she is quite powerful and her name alone can raise armies whose keen to protect her. Anyone marrying her would seal a great alliance indeed. 

b- She is a Westerosi noblewomen which means she's able to go in and out of any court without attracting too much attention

c- She's the last pupil of the first sword of Bravos, who was ready to die to keep her alive. That would probably attract attention by the faceless men who would want what's so special in this girl.

Arya can develop into a knight similar to Brienne, a faceless man and a potential queen. Such flexibility makes her a great asset indeed. 

 

I am one of the people who think that Jaquen's plot has zip to do with arya. I think plan a was to get sent to the wall with Ned after the later makes his confession at the sept of balor and then sent to the wall. On the way he was going to kill Ned and steal his face. The plan was to exert the kind of influence at the wall that only Edgar's Stark could have. He could have done any number of bat shit crazy things before anyone would have dared question him as Ned.

 

i think this was to destabilize the wall as part of the overall plot of the Faceless Men to bring the gift of death to all of westeros in the form of the long night. 

When Joff left the script and had Ned beheaded that plan was no longer feasible and this is when the plot to get arya to go to Braavos comes up. I honk Preston Jacobs has the right of it when he says that the ship Arya took to Braavos has absolutely no reason to be where it was and that Jaquen's idea that the coin can be given to any man of Braavos is a total line of BS. 

 

Having set Arya up in the scheme to go get some training in Braavos as a back up plan to having Ned'a face, Jaquen goes to old town presumably to get a book which will show how to kill dragons. 

 

Tough to say why JH wants to know how to kill dragons. The obvious reason is that he is an assasin. He has been hired to kill dragons. He needs to know how. However, I am of the mind to say that the FM are planning to take down the wall to usher in the long night. They are naturally aligned with ice magic through their history as the slaves of Dragolords and as a death cult bringing about the death of everyone in westeros would fit their motto quite literally All Men Must Die

 

it is important now for the FM to get a dragon to bring down the wall but they will need to know how to kill it once it has served its purpose.

 

i am pretty tin foily here I freely admit and do believe that the secret servants that have the meeting in the house of black and white are essentially team Valar Morghulis who are planning what will amount to the biggest mass extinction since the Doom. Hardhome and Summerhall were just warm ups. I further believe that varys is team captain here (which would explain why he was so upset that joff had Ned's head snicked off as well as a few other things). So take my read with a grain of salt as it is part of a very large tin foil theory most of which will probably be all wrong

[Macgregor of the North]

20 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

Also, on the subject of his and Arya's parting, what bothers me is that he never receives a new mission. He's in the Black Cells, he begins the journey north, he joins the forces at Harrenhal, and then he travels to Oldtown to infiltrate the Citadel.

This may not necessarily be true. He may well have returned to HQ and recieved the Oldtown orders.

 

10 minutes ago, Tini said:

We don't know what happened after he and Arya split.

I always thought there was a strong possibility he did indeed head back and recieve the Oldtown orders.

"He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth. "No harder than taking a new name, if you know the way."

"Show me," she blurted. "I want to do it too."

"If you would learn, you must come with me."

Arya grew hesitant. "Where?"

"Far and away, across the narrow sea."

"I can't. I have to go home. To Winterfell."

"Then we must part," he said, "for I have duties too." He lifted her hand and pressed a small coin into her palm.

[aryagonnakill#2]

20 hours ago, Red Man Racey said:

This is not what we see when Jaqen leaves Arya -- he simply passes his hand over his face and *poof* new face. Unless of course what he reveals to Arya is in fact his natural face and he was simply removing the old disguise.

Also, on the subject of his and Arya's parting, what bothers me is that he never receives a new mission. He's in the Black Cells, he begins the journey north, he joins the forces at Harrenhal, and then he travels to Oldtown to infiltrate the Citadel. Is the mission to the Citadel the mission he was on from the beginning? It must be because he seemingly never receives a new mission, so we must conclude that he is on the same mission the entire time. Is it a single mission with multiple tasks? Was some component task of the operation in King's Landing? It's all very vexing.

This is what led to my speculating that he may have thought Pycelle had the same key he got from Pate in Oldtown.

[devilish]

42 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I am one of the people who think that Jaquen's plot has zip to do with arya. I think plan a was to get sent to the wall with Ned after the later makes his confession at the sept of balor and then sent to the wall. On the way he was going to kill Ned and steal his face. The plan was to exert the kind of influence at the wall that only Edgar's Stark could have. He could have done any number of bat shit crazy things before anyone would have dared question him as Ned.

 

i think this was to destabilize the wall as part of the overall plot of the Faceless Men to bring the gift of death to all of westeros in the form of the long night. 

When Joff left the script and had Ned beheaded that plan was no longer feasible and this is when the plot to get arya to go to Braavos comes up. I honk Preston Jacobs has the right of it when he says that the ship Arya took to Braavos has absolutely no reason to be where it was and that Jaquen's idea that the coin can be given to any man of Braavos is a total line of BS. 

 

Having set Arya up in the scheme to go get some training in Braavos as a back up plan to having Ned'a face, Jaquen goes to old town presumably to get a book which will show how to kill dragons. 

 

Tough to say why JH wants to know how to kill dragons. The obvious reason is that he is an assasin. He has been hired to kill dragons. He needs to know how. However, I am of the mind to say that the FM are planning to take down the wall to usher in the long night. They are naturally aligned with ice magic through their history as the slaves of Dragolords and as a death cult bringing about the death of everyone in westeros would fit their motto quite literally All Men Must Die

 

it is important now for the FM to get a dragon to bring down the wall but they will need to know how to kill it once it has served its purpose.

 

i am pretty tin foily here I freely admit and do believe that the secret servants that have the meeting in the house of black and white are essentially team Valar Morghulis who are planning what will amount to the biggest mass extinction since the Doom. Hardhome and Summerhall were just warm ups. I further believe that varys is team captain here (which would explain why he was so upset that joff had Ned's head snicked off as well as a few other things). So take my read with a grain of salt as it is part of a very large tin foil theory most of which will probably be all wrong

I disagree

a-    If the plan was to bring the long night on all Westeros then the IB wouldn’t have lent the money to the king in the first place and Ilyio wouldn’t want to become master of coin + he wouldn’t help Danny , Viserys and Aegon to achieve their goal
b-     If the FM were afraid of dragons then they would have killed Danny and the baby dragons when the former was begging at Qarth and the latter were the size of a cat

In my opinion, Bravos  is the closest thing we have to a multinational company with the sealords, the FM and the IB all part of the same complex structure. Their plan is to cause panic only to infiltrate their people in key roles once the dust settles. 
If you ask me, I believe that Jaqen was planted there to kill the royal family and put all the blame on Eddard. Under such circumstances, all Westeros will go to war with the Northern coalition taking Ned’s side (Vale, Riverlands and North), Stannis and the Lannisters demanding justice and Renly aiming for the crown with the Tyrells help. In terms of troops, the war will be more balanced and therefore bloodier then the original war of 5 kings. It will greatly weaken Westeros who would pave the way for Ilyio’s endorsed man (Viserys) to take the IT. All they were waiting for was for Robert to issue the command to kill Khal drogo’s wife which in return would infuriate the Khal, convincing him to march his horde to Westeros. Varys task was to become best buddies with Ned and convince him that Viserys was the rightful king and that the only way his family had to survive this ordeal was for the NC to join houses with the Targs (Viserys and Arya) and fight side by side. That is why Bravos made sure to plant Syrio close to the girl.  

Robert’s, Drogo’s and Visery’s premature death changed everything. Ilyio lost his golden boy and the Khalasar needed to capture Westeros  + Ned lost his head. However parts of the plan were still relevant. They moved to plan B (ie Aegon). Considering that Syrio died performing his duty, Jaqen moved in to take his place and protect the girl. The plan is to brainwash her so much to follow the FM and therefore Bravos estabilishment blindly. She will kill most of the current royal family, turning the Lannisters against the Tyrells who'll be greatly weakened by a civil war only to be instructed to become Arya again, loyal wife to Aegon Targeryan and queen of Westeros. That would bring the Bravosi man into power + the North, Riverlands, Dorne and the Golden Company under 1 banner. 
 

[Tini]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This may not necessarily be true. He may well have returned to HQ and recieved the Oldtown orders.

 

I always thought there was a strong possibility he did indeed head back and recieve the Oldtown orders.

"He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth. "No harder than taking a new name, if you know the way."

"Show me," she blurted. "I want to do it too."

"If you would learn, you must come with me."

Arya grew hesitant. "Where?"

"Far and away, across the narrow sea."

"I can't. I have to go home. To Winterfell."

"Then we must part," he said, "for I have duties too." He lifted her hand and pressed a small coin into her palm.

It's not that far a trip across the narrow sea, is it? It just seems that way because Daenerys is forever travelling in the wrong direction.

And considering that the Faceless Men can, and do, change faces, we don't even know if the Faceless Man Pate meets, the one that takes Pate's face, and the one who travelled with Arya are the same person.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, Tini said:

It's not that far a trip across the narrow sea, is it? It just seems that way because Daenerys is forever travelling in the wrong direction.

And considering that the Faceless Men can, and do, change faces, we don't even know if the Faceless Man Pate meets, the one that takes Pate's face, and the one who travelled with Arya are the same person.

No it's not such a long journey, I wasn't stating it was really though I was just pointing out the passage that shows the mans intent was to head back across the narrow sea after he and Arya parted as he had duties.

I think we can be certain that they are the same person. GRRM has deliberately shown us they are I believe and it's pointless to think otherwise but that may just be me.

I think either he received word on the new assignment while in Westeros and headed straight to Oldtown or he returned back to HQ and was given the new orders from there and his superiors decided to use the same operative and the same face (scar, tight black curly hair etc.) until he could find a new target at Oldtown and impersonate that person from then on. 

In any event though, at this stage, his first appearance we see in Westeros as Jaqen simply seems to be a plot device for Arya.

 

 

[Whitering]

On 11/18/2016 at 0:03 PM, DutchArya said:

I've heard this explanation before. But I can't understand why that even matters for a FM? He could move North quicker on his own and be far less conspicuous than travelling with he NW recruits.

I agree with Rorge/Biter fearing him for one of the reasons you mentioned, but that still doesn't explain why he remained in the cage. I don't think travelling in such a manner would have been the best option for Jaqen if that was all he was planning to do. 

I wonder if Jaqen had any contact with Ned while in the Black Cells? 

Westeros at this time had Gregor pounding through the Riverlands, so, I don't know how safe it was exactly. If Gendry wasn't with them or Cersei wasn't a huge biatch, they would not have run into problems, whereas a person alone can run into all sorts of them. And yes, they are good assassins, but we do not know if they are awesome fighters or not, not too mention, you can't see an arrow from an outlaw until it's too late, it's just safer to travel with a group.

[a black swan]

4 minutes ago, Whitering said:

Westeros at this time had Gregor pounding through the Riverlands, so, I don't know how safe it was exactly. If Gendry wasn't with them or Cersei wasn't a huge biatch, they would not have run into problems, whereas a person alone can run into all sorts of them. And yes, they are good assassins, but we do not know if they are awesome fighters or not, not too mention, you can't see an arrow from an outlaw until it's too late, it's just safer to travel with a group.

I don't agree. I think a FM like Jaqen can manage to travel North (if that was his goal at all I don't think it was). He needed to be in the NW recruit group heading North (not for the destination) but for the target he was monitoring. 

Suddenly, people think FM aren't able to fight and kill and avoid/get out of tricky situations? Instead, travelling caged up with a ramshackle group of criminals seems to be the best option. I can't say I agree.

[Whitering]

Just now, DutchArya said:

I don't agree. I think a FM like Jaqen can manage to travel North (if that was his goal at all I don't think it was). He needed to be in the NW recruit group heading North (not for the destination) but for the target he was monitoring. 

Suddenly, people think FM aren't able to fight and kill and avoid/get out of tricky situations? Instead, travelling caged up with a ramshackle group of criminals seems to be the best option. I can't say I agree.

Why would you imagine if Gregor and his band rode past that he'd be able to do anything? Hell even Lorch while out hunting for Gendry might have ridden him down for no reason. These are total asshats we are talking about and okay, maybe 1 on 1, but they both had a lot of men with them. Then there are outlaws, traveling in packs mostly. Or a hunter, down on his luck, hey, I didn't find a dear today, maybe that dude has some money on him, boom dead.

None, of those situations leave much of an option for anybody.

And this rag tag group of criminals only really had 3 dangerous people in (including him), and the other two were so scared of him they stopped talking completely when Arya mentioned his name.

Now, I did see the highlight from the show that makes it look like he massacred about two dozen guards all by himself like it was some computer game or something, but in the meantime, bookwise, we have no idea if any of them can fight because we've not seen a single piece of evidence that they can, unless you include Arya. So, it might be nice to imagine that they can mow down a group of outlaws, but there is no evidence that is the case.

[Tini]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

No it's not such a long journey, I wasn't stating it was really though I was just pointing out the passage that shows the mans intent was to head back across the narrow sea after he and Arya parted as he had duties.

I think we can be certain that they are the same person. GRRM has deliberately shown us they are I believe and it's pointless to think otherwise but that may just be me.

I think either he received word on the new assignment while in Westeros and headed straight to Oldtown or he returned back to HQ and was given the new orders from there and his superiors decided to use the same operative and the same face (scar, tight black curly hair etc.) until he could find a new target at Oldtown and impersonate that person from then on. 

In any event though, at this stage, his first appearance we see in Westeros as Jaqen simply seems to be a plot device for Arya.

I think they are the same person, too. It would be lazy storytelling otherwise - unless GRRM comes up with a very good reason for different operatives using the same face.

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Tini said:

I think they are the same person, too. It would be lazy storytelling otherwise - unless GRRM comes up with a very good reason for different operatives using the same face.

I regard it as much a fact as Ned Stark being dead if im honest.

If we look closely, we get the clue before Pate even says the "Pig boy" give away which if im honest GRRM didnt even need to insert but must have thought, i better make extra sure people catch this.

Before that, 'Pate' says Obsidian before being corrected by Marwyn that it is Dragonglass, but earlier when the real Pate was drinking with his companions he was the one who used the word Dragonglass in much the same way Marwyn did.