J. Stargaryen

R+L=J v.163

398 posts in this topic

In traditional Scottish culture (ie the North for GRRM) marriages were often by consent. They were called 'left handed" and lasted a year and a day. If the couple were happy then they would wed more formally.  Consider Gretna Green in Scotland where  couples once fled (can they still?) to elope and announce they are man and wife to the first person they see.

 

The year and a day tradition also applied in Europe around May Day where often young couples went off to the woods on May eve and effectively were married a year and a day later on May Day - generally only after a child was born or coming.

The European marriage idea was imposed on Britain by the Romans and later the church. it is mostly about property. For Wilding in GRRM's tale where there is not much in the way of private property, marriage is less formal.

 

However clearly GRRM does intend something VERY significant about bastardry. First the bastard naming tradition, which is NOT a practice I have heard of from Europe. William the Conqueror was known as the Bastard of Normandy and signed himself William Bastardus - in other words he did just what Tyrion advised for Jon.  Most bastards would be known by where they were born (as were most nobles). Known bastards of Kings and senior royals were know as Fitzroy or Fitzclarence, FitzGerald, etc. However the naming of bastards by their kingdom seems very strange.

Secondly the WHOLE Craster story points to something special about bastards. Craster is terrified and angry that his children are called bastards. This seems to matter a very, very great deal - no idea why.

Thirdly the hints we get about bastards being treacherous - from Manderly and the glovers etc. There is clearly something wrong or even evil about them - think Ramsay Snow.

Finally we have the REQUIREMENT that bastards be acknowledged and raised with their fathers.  It is central to the whole story of Jon. Ned could have chosen to foster Jon with the Cerwyns or Ryswells or Umbers but chose not to. Why was this? His presence bothered Cat so much!!!  He could even have fostered Jon and Robb together if he wanted them to be friends.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because he promised his sister he would protect him, and he can't protect him if he's living somewhere else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2017 at 11:22 PM, Luddagain said:

Why was this?

Because he was a decent human being. Throwing a child with no family outside of the house to please an adult it what a jerk would have done. Even without his promise to Lyanna, Jon was a Stark and Winterfell was his house more than it was Cat's house. Lyanna was as much a Stark as he was and Jon is as Stark as the rest of his children.

Why he should keep the rest of the children, all of them boys and girls, and throw Jon out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remembering Alfie Allen's comment about "Star Wars situation", here comes another bit that makes for a nice parallel (spoiler for Star Wars Rebels S3Ep20)

Spoiler

Look what happens when someone figures out what a knight in(almost)  white is doing in the middle of nowhere:

Keeping the Chosen One in secret is a tough job :-)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Remembering Alfie Allen's comment about "Star Wars situation", here comes another bit that makes for a nice parallel (spoiler for Star Wars Rebels S3Ep20)

  Hide contents

Look what happens when someone figures out what a knight in(almost)  white is doing in the middle of nowhere:

Keeping the Chosen One in secret is a tough job :-)

 

Indeed! 

No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Night’s Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Remembering Alfie Allen's comment about "Star Wars situation", here comes another bit that makes for a nice parallel (spoiler for Star Wars Rebels S3Ep20)

  Hide contents

Look what happens when someone figures out what a knight in(almost)  white is doing in the middle of nowhere:

Keeping the Chosen One in secret is a tough job :-)

 

I like it. What I still find confusing about Alfie Allen's response when asked who Jon's parents were was the Luke Skywalker comment and then he goes on to talk about inbreeding in the middle ages. Never understood what that was all about. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/23/2017 at 5:37 PM, Ygrain said:

Remembering Alfie Allen's comment about "Star Wars situation", here comes another bit that makes for a nice parallel (spoiler for Star Wars Rebels S3Ep20)

  Hide contents

Look what happens when someone figures out what a knight in(almost)  white is doing in the middle of nowhere:

Keeping the Chosen One in secret is a tough job :-)

 

Love this analogy, and spot on.:thumbsup:

(Obi Wan forever.......)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon has a white wolf, and his color is black (as a man of the night's watch.) This reminds me of the reversal of arms for which bastards are known to do. 

I can't be the first to pick up on this.

But it makes me wonder if maybe Jon is not Rhaegar's. Maybe, Brandon's?

If Jon had taken the whitewolf/black field arms for himself, I wouldn't question it, because he thinks Ned is his father. But this more like foreshadowing.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^The Stark colours are grey and white, and the Targaryen colours are red and black. What are you getting at with black and white?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Jon has a white wolf, and his color is black (as a man of the night's watch.) This reminds me of the reversal of arms for which bastards are known to do. 

I can't be the first to pick up on this.

But it makes me wonder if maybe Jon is not Rhaegar's. Maybe, Brandon's?

If Jon had taken the whitewolf/black field arms for himself, I wouldn't question it, because he thinks Ned is his father. But this more like foreshadowing.  

In addition to @maudisdottir's comments, there is the problem that Brandon is dead before Jon is conceived.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

^The Stark colours are grey and white, and the Targaryen colours are red and black. What are you getting at with black and white?

I'm suggesting that Jon is a Stark Bastard, not a Targ bastard (as he would be if Rhaegar. The foreshadowing seems to suggest a white wolf on a black field as being associated with Jon. This is interesting because it is very close to the arms that a Stark bastard would take. 

The matter of grey vs. black, is certainly worth noting, but I would say that if you applied that type of captious assessment to GRRM's other foreshadowing, you might come up with misses that would otherwise be hits. Besides, weather worn black cloaks fade to grey..

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

In addition to @maudisdottir's comments, there is the problem that Brandon is dead before Jon is conceived.

That would be a deal breaker... How much of a difference would there be? (Between when Brandon died and John was conceived?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

That would be a deal breaker... How much of a difference would there be? (Between when Brandon died and John was conceived?)

We are dealing with estimates of time given a few factors. We know Brandon dies with his father before Jon Arryn raises his banners in rebellion. We know when Ned enters King's Landing during the sack it is about a year after the start of the rebellion. We also know that Daenerys is born nine months after the sack, and that Jon is "eight or nine months or thereabouts" older than she is. That puts Jon's conception to about the third or fourth month of the rebellion - give or take a few weeks - as the likely best estimate of when he was conceived. All of which puts his conception about three months or more after Brandon's death. Of course, that's not counting the time Brandon spends in the dungeons of the Red Keep after his arrest. It's not likely at all he is fathering any children during his imprisonment, but one has to admit it is much more likely than after his death.

Edited by SFDanny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Besides, weather worn black cloaks fade to grey..

So really, that's all you're basing it on, which is why nobody picked it up, because it's not a thing. Grey does not equal black.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Grey does not equal black.

:mellow:... it sure doesn't.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/24/2017 at 0:14 AM, teej6 said:

I like it. What I still find confusing about Alfie Allen's response when asked who Jon's parents were was the Luke Skywalker comment and then he goes on to talk about inbreeding in the middle ages. Never understood what that was all about. 

The important takeaway, IMO, is that his train-of-thought rambling leads him from Jon Snow's parents to the Targaryens. Not the Baratheons. Not the Daynes. Not the Starks. The Targaryens.

Digging a little deeper, GRRM traded this knowledge rather cheaply. Alfie answered some questions about his sister for GRRM. So we should ask ourselves: Would GRRM be more likely to do this if

  • R+L=J was already one of the worst kept secrets in fandom, or
  • R+L=J was a grand red herring?

I know which answer makes a lot more sense to me. Honestly, I simply can't see GRRM revealing the latter in exchange for the knowledge of Lily Allen's favorite color, or whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the promo trailer of season 7 , at about 2:54, there is a certain sentence said while a certain character is shown. A hint, or a coincidence? Personally, I don't believe in coincidences. :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not an official promo though, that's just some fan-made trailer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, I see. Sorry, should have double-checked. But it is a nice cut, isn't it :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't really paying attention because Kit looks so pretty!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24/03/2017 at 5:14 AM, teej6 said:

I like it. What I still find confusing about Alfie Allen's response when asked who Jon's parents were was the Luke Skywalker comment and then he goes on to talk about inbreeding in the middle ages. Never understood what that was all about. 

Luke Skywalker wanted to get it on with Princess Leia before finding out they were close relatives. I suspect this means Jon and Dany are destined to make the beast with two backs before he finds out he just bonked his auntie. 

Alternatively, it's Ned not Jon who's Luke here. Ned was a part of the rebellion against the evil empire with it's black armoured scion. So maybe Ned fell in love with his sister too, and hence the discussion of inbreeding. Targs did it, why not Starks too. Starkcest confirmed!

Yeah, probably the former but it's so vague we can't conclude too much from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.