How will LF meet his end?

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, mankytoes said:

You're missing the point a bit. It isn't that you just totally disregard the foreshadowing, you do something more intelligent and unexpected with it.

You say the villains need to be killed in a "satisfactory" way. Who killed Vargo Hoat? Gregor Clegane. Who killed Craster? Dirk (had to look that up). Joffrey? Olenna Tyrell/Littlefinger/Dontos Holland. Only Tywin you could really say has much foreshadowing.

Vargo Hoat and Craster were nasty guys of little importance to the overall story. Gregor Clegane's death, or undeath, is a different kettle of fish and even more so if he is offed a second time by Sandor. Joffrey, while certainly Sansa's nightmare, was not a big villain of the story but an entitled, stupid little shite. Whereas LF is the mastermind behind the demise of House Stark, and that requires retribution.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

19 hours ago, mankytoes said:

You're missing the point a bit. It isn't that you just totally disregard the foreshadowing, you do something more intelligent and unexpected with it.

You say the villains need to be killed in a "satisfactory" way. Who killed Vargo Hoat? Gregor Clegane. Who killed Craster? Dirk (had to look that up). Joffrey? Olenna Tyrell/Littlefinger/Dontos Holland. Only Tywin you could really say has much foreshadowing.

 

I'm really not. 

Vargo Hoat died satisfactorily he was known as the Crippler, for his sadistic habit of chopping bits off of people, and he met his end through being slowly dismembered and his body parts fed to those whom he had imprisoned. 

Gregor Clegane dies in a satisfactory way as he is killed by the brother of the woman whom he raped and murdered. Oberyn dies in the process but ultimately he got his longed for revenge.  The thing which is Ser Robert Strong is not Gregor Clegane. it is an abomination, a zombified Frankenstein's monster. Gregor died in a long drawn out agony brought about by the man who had spent 16 years waiting for the opportunity to avenge his sister and her children. 

Craster is killed by the Nights watch, the individual man isn't the point the point is the watch kills him. He has long provided a service for them one which he has held over them; demanding weapons, being miserly and flaunting his abhorrent incestuous abuse. Craster takes a perverse pleasure in the power he holds over the watch when they are staying with him, and his comeuppance is satisfying because of this.  If he had just died from falling down drunk in the snow one night that would be unsatisfying. But the fact the watch killed him, makes it satisfying for the reader. He got what he deserved!

 

Joffrey is killed by the Tyrells because of his abuse of Sansa, Had he treated her well Olenna would not have sought to be rid of the boy Margaery would have wed the boy and been his Queen.  So Sansa telling the Tyrells about his true nature instigates his murder, not only that but she also gets to play a major part in it; whilst she does not know what she wears in her hair that night she does know that in doing so she will set about a chain of events which will bring revenge and freedom. And she consciously chooses to wear it. Dontos twice emphasises the importance of the hair net to the plan.  So his death is satisfying because the character who he has hurt gets to play a major role in his end. And his end comes about because of the pain he has caused her.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

55 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm really not. 

Vargo Hoat died satisfactorily he was known as the Crippler, for his sadistic habit of chopping bits off of people, and he met his end through being slowly dismembered and his body parts fed to those whom he had imprisoned. 

Gregor Clegane dies in a satisfactory way as he is killed by the brother of the woman whom he raped and murdered. Oberyn dies in the process but ultimately he got his longed for revenge.  The thing which is Ser Robert Strong is not Gregor Clegane. it is an abomination, a zombified Frankenstein's monster. Gregor died in a long drawn out agony brought about by the man who had spent 16 years waiting for the opportunity to avenge his sister and her children. 

Craster is killed by the Nights watch, the individual man isn't the point the point is the watch kills him. He has long provided a service for them one which he has held over them; demanding weapons, being miserly and flaunting his abhorrent incestuous abuse. Craster takes a perverse pleasure in the power he holds over the watch when they are staying with him, and his comeuppance is satisfying because of this.  If he had just died from falling down drunk in the snow one night that would be unsatisfying. But the fact the watch killed him, makes it satisfying for the reader. He got what he deserved!

 

Joffrey is killed by the Tyrells because of his abuse of Sansa, Had he treated her well Olenna would not have sought to be rid of the boy Margaery would have wed the boy and been his Queen.  So Sansa telling the Tyrells about his true nature instigates his murder, not only that but she also gets to play a major part in it; whilst she does not know what she wears in her hair that night she does know that in doing so she will set about a chain of events which will bring revenge and freedom. And she consciously chooses to wear it. Dontos twice emphasises the importance of the hair net to the plan.  So his death is satisfying because the character who he has hurt gets to play a major role in his end. And his end comes about because of the pain he has caused her.

 

Such a vengeful heart!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Such a vengeful heart!

Don't ever doubt it.  

 

I make no bones about my love of revenge, I hold my hatred like a talisman; I love Arya's list and celebrate every name crossed off it.  And I cheer her desire for vengance every time someone claims she is a sociopath or too far gone to ever function normally again. Fuck the fuck off with that Shit. 

I love this line from Hugo Wull. 

Quote

Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

1

Picture me showering in the blood of my enemies with an ecstatic grin on my face as I type this. 

[Praetor Xyn]

Symbolism aside, I'd prefer it if Sansa slaying the Titan was a metaphor for her taking away LF's power in the Vale and Lady Stoneheart kills him. I'm not saying it will happen, I just think it's better writing.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Don't ever doubt it.  

 

I make no bones about my love of revenge, I hold my hatred like a talisman; I love Arya's list and celebrate every name crossed off it.  And I cheer her desire for vengance every time someone claims she is a sociopath or too far gone to ever function normally again. Fuck the fuck off with that Shit. 

I love this line from Hugo Wull. 

Picture me showering in the blood of my enemies with an ecstatic grin on my face as I type this. 

You got me all fired up!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@Lost Melnibonean

 

hahahahahah, sorry. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Don't ever doubt it.  

 

I make no bones about my love of revenge, I hold my hatred like a talisman; I love Arya's list and celebrate every name crossed off it.  And I cheer her desire for vengance every time someone claims she is a sociopath or too far gone to ever function normally again. Fuck the fuck off with that Shit. 

I love this line from Hugo Wull. 

Picture me showering in the blood of my enemies with an ecstatic grin on my face as I type this. 

Day-uuum! 

Best post of 2017. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

[mankytoes]

4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm really not. 

Vargo Hoat died satisfactorily he was known as the Crippler, for his sadistic habit of chopping bits off of people, and he met his end through being slowly dismembered and his body parts fed to those whom he had imprisoned. 

Gregor Clegane dies in a satisfactory way as he is killed by the brother of the woman whom he raped and murdered. Oberyn dies in the process but ultimately he got his longed for revenge.  The thing which is Ser Robert Strong is not Gregor Clegane. it is an abomination, a zombified Frankenstein's monster. Gregor died in a long drawn out agony brought about by the man who had spent 16 years waiting for the opportunity to avenge his sister and her children. 

Craster is killed by the Nights watch, the individual man isn't the point the point is the watch kills him. He has long provided a service for them one which he has held over them; demanding weapons, being miserly and flaunting his abhorrent incestuous abuse. Craster takes a perverse pleasure in the power he holds over the watch when they are staying with him, and his comeuppance is satisfying because of this.  If he had just died from falling down drunk in the snow one night that would be unsatisfying. But the fact the watch killed him, makes it satisfying for the reader. He got what he deserved!

 

Joffrey is killed by the Tyrells because of his abuse of Sansa, Had he treated her well Olenna would not have sought to be rid of the boy Margaery would have wed the boy and been his Queen.  So Sansa telling the Tyrells about his true nature instigates his murder, not only that but she also gets to play a major part in it; whilst she does not know what she wears in her hair that night she does know that in doing so she will set about a chain of events which will bring revenge and freedom. And she consciously chooses to wear it. Dontos twice emphasises the importance of the hair net to the plan.  So his death is satisfying because the character who he has hurt gets to play a major role in his end. And his end comes about because of the pain he has caused her.

 

The point is, that wasn't predictable, was it? Gregor wasn't the obvious choice to kill Vargo. Jaime was. And GRRM could easily have had Jaime do it- Jaime goes to the Harrenhall after Vargo is killed, they could have kept him there as prisoner. But reality doesn't work like that. Daven swore he wouldn't cut his hair until he killed Robb- and never got near him. The obvious thing would be for him to kill Robb, or nearly kill Robb, or for Robb to kill him.

That's true, but the foreshadowing wasn't the Oberyn would kill him, it was that Sandor would.

Who predicted that, though? We thought Robb was going to ride on Kings Landing and take Joffrey's head, or die valliantly in the attempt. Expectations of just revenge prevailing died at The Twins.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@mankytoes

Your still not seeing it are you?  Jaime can't come to Harrenhall on his redemption arc and spitefully kill a defenceless imprisoned Vargo. Cos there goes his characters search for chivalry. 

The foreshadowing is not there for Sandor to kill Gregor at all. You're taking his words as foreshadowing, they are not.  Foreshadowing is working things out from what is not said outright. Devan Lannister won't ever get to kill Robb Stark precisely because he swore he would. However if Devan had been told by a woods witch who has prophetic dreams that she had seen a great lion with a long golden mane tear out the throat of a wolf pup. Then we can ascertain Devan has been foreshadowed to kill Robb. 

Err some of us knew Robb would die before he ever got anywhere near KL on our first read through. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Brienne the Beauty gave the Goat the bite that slew him when the son of bitch tried to rape her. Very fitting. 

[mankytoes]

46 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

@mankytoes

Your still not seeing it are you?  Jaime can't come to Harrenhall on his redemption arc and spitefully kill a defenceless imprisoned Vargo. Cos there goes his characters search for chivalry. 

The foreshadowing is not there for Sandor to kill Gregor at all. You're taking his words as foreshadowing, they are not.  Foreshadowing is working things out from what is not said outright. Devan Lannister won't ever get to kill Robb Stark precisely because he swore he would. However if Devan had been told by a woods witch who has prophetic dreams that she had seen a great lion with a long golden mane tear out the throat of a wolf pup. Then we can ascertain Devan has been foreshadowed to kill Robb. 

Err some of us knew Robb would die before he ever got anywhere near KL on our first read through. 

It wouldn't have been "spiteful", it would have been justice. In fact, he executes one of Gregor's men for rape and it's presented as a positive and chivalrous action. And Vargo was way more deserving of execution than that gentleman. They could have showed Jaime as developing by giving Vargo a quick death, most people would probably be calling for a particularly cruel execution, like the one he got from Gregor.

Foreshadowing can be stated outright.

Reading the books must be a little dull when you know what's going to happen... seriously though, if you did know that (and I don't really think anyone did- you can suspect something, but you don't really know) it was probably based on the original big subvertion- the execution of Ned. A key feature of the books is unpredictability. There is loads of foreshadowing, but it's all deliberately ambiguous. Who is the valonqar? Is Jaime too obvious as well? Would the real double subvertion be Tyrion? There are lots of good theories, but nothing overwhelmingly probable.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

You presume too much. Yes, I knew. 

And I worked out R+L=J by a third of the way into ACOK on my own too. I'm not trying to say I am always right, or that every theory I like will undoubtedly come true. But I am pretty confident about a few. And Sansa killing LF is one I would literally put money on. 

Foreshadowing is : the act of providing vague advance indications; representing beforehand. and : Indistinctly Prophetic. 

Foreshadowing is not when something is directly said. You will note the words Vague & Indistinct. They don't imply direct information.   And Jaime executing a man for rape is chivalry in action, it's justice for the weak; it enhances his redemption arc. If you can't see the difference between that and him killing a man in revenge for what he took from him then I'm afraid you are a lost cause in regards to reading comprehension. 

[Lord Varys]

I don't see where the Vale story is going. There is no way to determine how things will turn out and what roles the Mad Mouse, Harry, Littlefinger's goons, Myranda Royce, and Ser Lyn will play. Not to mention all the others.

There is also no hint I'm aware of that an escalation on a large scale is afoot. Sansa has as of yet little reason to kill Littlefinger. She doesn't know how much he messed with her or her family nor has he actually threatened, assaulted, raped, or humiliated her. One assumes that Sansa doesn't become a murderess for no good reason. What the reader knows about Littlefinger is irrelevant in that regard. Important is what Sansa knows and what Sansa could gain by killing Littlefinger. And right she knows pretty much nothing and she has nothing to gain by killing Littlefinger.

If Littlefinger died tomorrow half the Vale or more might still sell her to King Tommen even now if they would then in exchange be named the new Lord Protector of the Vale.

I can see Sansa being the cause of Littlefinger's doom because he gets himself entangled in a project he should give up/cannot really assess the situation as rationally as he would under normal circumstances. I can also see Sansa betraying or abandoning Littlefinger. But I doubt she is going to kill him. That's not what she does.

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/5/2017 at 8:24 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Don't ever doubt it.  

 

I make no bones about my love of revenge, I hold my hatred like a talisman; I love Arya's list and celebrate every name crossed off it.  And I cheer her desire for vengance every time someone claims she is a sociopath or too far gone to ever function normally again. Fuck the fuck off with that Shit. 

I love this line from Hugo Wull. 

Picture me showering in the blood of my enemies with an ecstatic grin on my face as I type this. 

Showering in the blood of my enemies sounds like a very Bolton thing to do. Or at least a Mad Danelle.

Also killing someone because they stiffed you on a horse is a tad overkill.

Quote

A half-dozen other Saltpans folks were around, going about their business, so Arya knew she couldn't kill the woman. Instead she had to bite her lip and let herself be cheated. The purse she got was pitifully flat, and when she asked for more for the saddle and bridle and blanket, the woman just laughed at her.

On 2/5/2017 at 4:57 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't see where the Vale story is going. There is no way to determine how things will turn out and what roles the Mad Mouse, Harry, Littlefinger's goons, Myranda Royce, and Ser Lyn will play. Not to mention all the others.

There is also no hint I'm aware of that an escalation on a large scale is afoot. Sansa has as of yet little reason to kill Littlefinger. She doesn't know how much he messed with her or her family nor has he actually threatened, assaulted, raped, or humiliated her. One assumes that Sansa doesn't become a murderess for no good reason. What the reader knows about Littlefinger is irrelevant in that regard. Important is what Sansa knows and what Sansa could gain by killing Littlefinger. And right she knows pretty much nothing and she has nothing to gain by killing Littlefinger.

If Littlefinger died tomorrow half the Vale or more might still sell her to King Tommen even now if they would then in exchange be named the new Lord Protector of the Vale.

I can see Sansa being the cause of Littlefinger's doom because he gets himself entangled in a project he should give up/cannot really assess the situation as rationally as he would under normal circumstances. I can also see Sansa betraying or abandoning Littlefinger. But I doubt she is going to kill him. That's not what she does.

There are a lot of ways the Vale story can go, really depends how long Baelish can keep juggling the balls. Still after the Vale Sansa and Baelish will be heading to the Riverlands and not the North. Agree on Sansa's reasoning. People need to start remember what we know as readers vs what characters know. Sansa still might puzzle it out given the time and perhaps more info but right now she has a tournament to plan.

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

There are a lot of ways the Vale story can go, really depends how long Baelish can keep juggling the balls. Still after the Vale Sansa and Baelish will be heading to the Riverlands and not the North. Agree on Sansa's reasoning. People need to start remember what we know as readers vs what characters know. Sansa still might puzzle it out given the time and perhaps more info but right now she has a tournament to plan.

There are. And I really hope we see the Vale entering the fray of the fighting factions in a tantalizing way. Going North would do that. In the North we already have Stannis and whatever is going to be left of Jon. We have Bran in the background and Rickon poised to return. We don't need Sansa up there. And there is no reason whatsoever that the Lords of the Vale should even contemplate a campaign in the North in the middle of winter. That would be suicide, plain and simple.

That is why I think we should see the Vale declare for Prince Aegon and have the Lords of the Vale kick some Lannister and Tyrell ass. Sansa has been fucked with again and again by Cersei and the Tyrells, and if she is supposed to come into her own she should actually avenge herself on the people she knows wronged her.

Once they moved the Vale forces to the Crownlands she and Littlefinger could try to woo Aegon with the intention to set up Sansa as the new queen (a much better prospect than being the Lady of the Eyrie/Winterfell) as well as help restore peace to the Riverlands. It could also set up a nice background of intrigue and rivalry between Arianne and Sansa. One assumes Aegon and Arianne would marry or make a marriage contract before Sansa ever meets Aegon but that does not prevent Sansa from trying to end that marriage/betrothal one way or another.

Littlefinger might fall down the wayside eventually during all that, or rather Sansa might end up exploiting him as an asset as much as he used to exploit her (and her family). If she actually learns stuff from him that's what she is going to do. And just as Melisandre would never see it coming if Stannis ends up killing her Littlefinger is unlikely going to believe that Sansa would ever betray. He might be consciously aware of that possibility but he is not going to want to believe that. And that's a weakness. 

[SeanF]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 0:49 AM, Lord Varys said:

 

The only alternative is that he and Catelyn are reunited again, and she is going to have some fun at his expense.

That would be very satisfying.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Does the plot demand a reckoning between Tyrion and Petyr?

Quote

The dwarfs are not to blame, Tyrion decided. When they are done, I shall compliment them and give them a fat purse of silver. And come the morrow, I will find whoever planned this little diversion and arrange for a different sort of thanks.

Tyrion VIII, Storm 60

Quote

As he led her below, he said, "Tell me of the feast. The queen took such pains. The singers, the jugglers, the dancing bear . . . did your little lord husband enjoy my jousting dwarfs?"

"Yours?"

"I had to send to Braavos for them and hide them away in a brothel until the wedding. The expense was exceeded only by the bother. It is surprisingly difficult to hide a dwarf, and Joffrey . . . you can lead a king to water, but with Joff one had to splash it about before he realized he could drink it. When I told him about my little surprise, His Grace said, ‘Why would I want some ugly dwarfs at my feast? I hate dwarfs.' I had to take him by the shoulder and whisper, ‘Not as much as your uncle will.'"

Sansa V, Storm 61

If so, how do you suppose it will occur? Will one kill the other? 

Tyrion did promise the Vale to the clans, and a Lannister always pays his debts. Of course, turning over the Vale to the clans would alienate the Knights of the Vale, especially those of pure Andal blood, and many other lords, but there is that fourth daughter of Elys and Alys who was carried off by the Burned Men. Perhaps Tyrion might help Bronze Yohn to find a rival to Harry the Heir? 

[Lord Varys]

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That would be very satisfying.

I find that not unlikely. Cat is still there, in a fashion, and she never has realized how Petyr has betrayed her. Now she certainly should no. She would have heard how he profited from the war, how he became Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident, not to mention how he married Lysa. Cat is in a much better position to figure out Littlefinger's deeper machinations than Sansa (or pretty much everybody else) is. And Cat is Littlefinger's true love, not Sansa. Sansa is just a replacement. If they ever meet each other again this should be a very powerful scene.

31 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Does the plot demand a reckoning between Tyrion and Petyr?

Most likely not. The plot demanded/indicated a lot of such reckonings. Sandor-Gregor, Robb-Joffrey, Brienne-Stannis, Bran-Jaime, Arya-and a lot of already dead guys on her list, Dany-the Usurper's Dogs, Doran-Tywin, and so on.

Some of those might be realized but most won't. The story is too big and realistic for that. Not everybody gets their revenge. And Tyrion doesn't even care enough about Littlefinger to avenge himself on him. He would certainly want to put him down if he ever gets into a position of power in Westeros again. But only because the man is a potential danger, not because of that little dagger lie there. Tyrion has much larger fishes to fry with Cersei and Jaime both.