Grover Bluejoy

Question for show watchers and book readers.

158 posts in this topic

Damn, there are a lot of characters whose appearances I prefer in the shows (mostly the ugly or bald ones who had hair on TV) but whose essence I may have prefered in the books or where I wish I could make a composite of the book and show characters (Stannis chief among them).  The following characters I unequivocally prefer the TV version of...

Oberyn, Ned, Shireen, Jorah, Olenna, Margaery, Osha, Tormund, Ramsay, Catelyn, Talisa/Jeyne Westerling (though the book made more narrative sense), Bronn, Roose.

@Byfort of Corfe can you elaborate on show Brienne vs book Brienne?  @Dragonsbone and @Newstar and I had a little discussion on another thread about this.  I feel strongly about book Brienne over show Brienne, so I'm curious about people who prefer the show version.

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I very much prefer Margaery on the show, in the books she's a non-entity and Cersei seems even sillier for her imaginary rivalry with a teenage girl. In the show the rivalry was real and Margaery had quite a bit guile on her own instead of just being Olenna's pawn.

The same goes for Olenna too, she is not exactly better, she's the same level of greatness as in the books, but we simply get more of her. And in this case more is a very good thing.

The only critique I have on both Tyrell women is that they made them a bit too "nice" on the show. In the books it's fairly obvious that the Tyrells are "Lannisters with roses" on the show they are a conglomeration of beautiful, caring, kind and considerate paragons. I would have liked it better if more of that kindness had been a facade.I know some of it was just a game, but even in her very last scene Margaery was doomed by her kindness and compassion for others and she even displayed shock at the reveal that Olenna had murdered Joffrey. I think the rivalry would have been more fun if Margaery had been more like Cersei.

On Cersei I think she started really good. Much more nuanced, much more relateable than the book version. Her scenes with Sansa during Blackwater are to this day my favourite part of the whole series. Then came the last season finale and she morphed into a comic book super villian with a soccer mom haircut and the ugliest dress in creation. Imho now she's even more ridiculous and a worse human being than book!Cersei. 

Also as with the Tyrell women I think that Cersei, up to the last episode was a bit too nice, and the development of her character to be more nuanced, came at the cost of both King Robert (who was way worse on the show) and Jaime (that infamous scene during Joffrey's wake, the fact that he's still Cersei's lapdog) There is a reason that Show!Cersei's fan-nickname used to be "Good Queen Carrol".

Similarly to that, I really, REALLY, liked Shaem who was an awesome, resourceful, strong and though young woman on the show who (unlike her book counterpart) clearly cared about Tyrion and Sansa...but then they forced her back into her book plot and, like Cersei, made her come off as even worse than her book counterpart in the process.

And I actually like Arya better on the show. I still don't quite like her either way, but I think they humanize her more on the show. Stuff like her comforting the sick girl or making the guy she killed in Braavos a child rapist rather than a largely innocent fugitive, served a lot to make the character less abrasive.

I also agree that Osha was better in the early seasons.

And characters I don't like on the show:

I disagree with Bronn however, by now he's just awful on the show.  After Blackwater they pretty much just sanitized him and kept him hanging around beause the actor can sing and the internet likes it when he uses swear words. His and Jaime's road-trip to Dorne was atrocious.

Jaime also lost a lot of his layers on the show and comes off as a worse person than in the books (wtf was up with him killing his cousin? He'd never do that in the books) And up until now they have refused to actually grant him his character arc from the books (him freeing himself from Cersei's influence) Of course up until now Show!Cersei wasn't horrible enough for him to get the message, maybe he'll do now. Until then he remains Larry.

Tyrion, like Bronn was sanitized beyond belief, even more so. St. Tyrion. His scenes with Greyworm and Missandei were so pointless. 

And Euron and Mance were just boring and bland and boring. 

Weird how the show improved on a lot of the female characters while dropping the ball on a lot of the men.

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16 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

and she even displayed shock at the reveal that Olenna had murdered Joffrey

Pretty sure that one wasn't for moral reasons though :D

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17 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Then came the last season finale and she morphed into a comic book super villian with a soccer mom haircut and the ugliest dress in creation. Imho now she's even more ridiculous and a worse human being than book!Cersei. 

I like the dress and haircut *shrug*

If she only came off as a "comicbook" in the very last episode, I'd say that doesn't count - she's spent the entire season being a relatable human character (probably at her most sympathetic in the series), and the last episode was basically just her revelling in the victory rituals she's been preparing.

She's basically on a trip right now, how else is she supposed to come off? Though even in the Unella scene she came off as relatable/likeable to a degree (as did Unella, of course) so, uh, yeah, she's not gonna be Barbara Kellerman in S7 :D

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I liked that the Tyrells had some compassion in them. Shows that all nobility isn't evil and selfish. Margaery could have cut and run during the trial, but she didn't. She wanted to save everyone. She would have, too. 

And we all know if that if the show made the Tyrells the Lannister 2.0 there would have been complaints about how depressing and nihilistic and cynical and blah blah blah. 

As for Cersei, what comic books are people reading? Yeah, she was definitely particularly horrible in the last episode, but that all had thematic value. Revenge, cruelty, disregard for consequences and the common people, losing her damn mind. I agree she looks like a soccer mom, that that dress was hot

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1 minute ago, dsug said:

I liked that the Tyrells had some compassion in them. Shows that all nobility isn't evil and selfish. Margaery could have cut and run during the trial, but she didn't. She wanted to save everyone. She would have, too. 

[...]

As for Cersei, what comic books are people reading? Yeah, she was definitely particularly horrible in the last episode, but that all had thematic value. Revenge, cruelty, disregard for consequences and the common people, losing her damn mind. I agree she looks like a soccer mom, that that dress was hot

Did anyone else, during the E10 opening, root for Margaery and all the others to get out, while simultaneously also fearing they'd get out and Cersei would see them from her window, distraught that her scheme had failed?

Though I suppose the High Sparrow would've still stayed inside, but what if he didn't... you know?

So yeah, as far as confusing the audience morally and making them root for different parties (some of them in the wrong), show's still going strong - though there could've been a lot more.

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1 minute ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

Did anyone else, during the E10 opening, root for Margaery and all the others to get out, while simultaneously also fearing they'd get out and Cersei would see them from her window, distraught that her scheme had failed?

Though I suppose the High Sparrow would've still stayed inside, but what if he didn't... you know?

So yeah, as far as confusing the audience morally and making them root for different parties (some of them in the wrong), show's still going strong - though there could've been a lot more.

Lol I wanted Margaery to get out, but I also wanted Cersei to get her sweet revenge, so I was definitely torn. Even if she got out in time, she still would have died in the blast, though.

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33 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

And I actually like Arya better on the show. I still don't quite like her either way, but I think they humanize her more on the show. Stuff like her comforting the sick girl or making the guy she killed in Braavos a child rapist rather than a largely innocent fugitive, served a lot to make the character less abrasive.

 

3 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Tyrion, like Bronn was sanitized beyond belief, even more so. St. Tyrion. His scenes with Greyworm and Missandei were so pointless. 

So Arya is sanitized and that's good, but Tyrion is sanitized and it's bad?

Doesn't seem like a particularly consistent framework to hang a "they improved the women and dropped the men" conclusion on...


The "jokes" scene was shite, but that had nothing to do with him being "sanitized" it was just an attempt at awkward anti-humor comedy that backfired and sucked;
why did they have to make Tyrion as annoying and unfunny as Patch Adams or Joe Piscopo when he's still funny and suave everywhere else?
Stupid.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I disagree with Bronn however, by now he's just awful on the show.  After Blackwater they pretty much just sanitized him and kept him hanging around beause the actor can sing and the internet likes it when he uses swear words. His and Jaime's road-trip to Dorne was atrocious.

Right now I only remember the Podrick scene and them meeting the Frey sons, both scenes were awesome.

Bronn wasn't "sanitized" until the beginning of S5, where he was still planning to kill Lollys' sister after backing out of supporting Tyrion for selfish reasons - I hope he stays and gets to do or suggest something edgy again right when the audience forgot he wasn't too good of a person, but yeah.

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10 minutes ago, dsug said:

Lol I wanted Margaery to get out, but I also wanted Cersei to get her sweet revenge, so I was definitely torn. Even if she got out in time, she still would have died in the blast, though.

Well the scene wasn't in real-time so maybe they had a chance - but it'd be particularly cool if they had managed to get out, Cersei started panicking or something and then the fire caught up with them; would cause the same ambiguous reaction except 10 times more intense and people would be talking about it everywhere.

(Obviously Cersei brought all of this unto herself in S5 and she would've enjoyed seeing Margaery do the walk and didn't care what happened to her now even after having been in her shoes - so objectively, Cersei wasn't worth rooting for, but then again neither was Daenerys when she burned Mirri; it's just that her skewed, Stockholm-induced perspective was conveyed very well.)

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Posted (edited)

I think Tyrion and Jorah got a similar "upgrade" on the show, from the ugly, pervy creepers in the books to tortured, noble, humane types played by actors who are far better-looking than the characters.

Tyrion in Season 1 had a good dose of Book Tyrion's more malevolent, dickish side (mocking Theon, his sarcastic little bow to Lysa on the way out of the Eyrie, etc.), but they ditched that fairly early on to make him more of a mature, sympathetic, warm character. Even as of Season 2, it seemed like a lot of the sting had gone out of Tyrion's zingers. I don't know whether it was the writers influenced by the way Peter Dinklage played the character, or whether the writers just made the decision after Season 1 that they preferred Tyrion as a more straightforward hero, but there was a noticeable shift to the much nicer, calmer, sadder Tyrion of the show, who would rather drink himself to death than plot vengeance on Cersei, and who as of Season 6 just wants his fucking winery already.

As for Jorah, Iain Glen did an interview recently where he claimed that the audience would have no investment in Jorah and Dany's relationship if he were played by an actor who was as ugly as the book version. He has a point.

Quote

 The only critique I have on both Tyrell women is that they made them a bit too "nice" on the show.

There was nothing "nice" about Olenna. She admitted to murdering Joffrey and was completely unapologetic about it. Nor did she seem terribly concerned about Tyrion and Sansa being blamed for the crime. Olenna loved the Tyrells--well, her grandkids, at least--but she had no use for anyone else, and she made that abundantly clear.

Quote

In the books it's fairly obvious that the Tyrells are "Lannisters with roses" on the show they are a conglomeration of beautiful, caring, kind and considerate paragons. I would have liked it better if more of that kindness had been a facade.

It was a facade, not that Olenna ever bothered appearing kind and considerate to anyone other than Margaery. As for Margaery, though, there are hints in the show that she's not as kind and caring as she appears. She cheerfully needled Cersei about her age and drinking habits, for starters, and her pious shtick with the High Sparrow was clearly an act (which she dropped the minute she believed their lives were in danger).

One difference between the show and the books is that Book Margaery dropped Sansa like a bad habit the moment it became clear that Sansa would not be of any use to the Tyrells, whereas TV Margaery comforted Sansa about the marriage. To me, though, that doesn't mean that TV Margaery was necessarily any kinder; TV Margaery pointed out in that conversation that Sansa and Tyrion's future children might be very powerful, so cultivating a good relationship with Sansa was just basic PR.

 

Quote

I know some of it was just a game, but even in her very last scene Margaery was doomed by her kindness and compassion for others

Was she? If she had tried to leave on her own, the sparrows would have barred the way, which is why she was trying to convince the High Sparrow to evacuate everyone and let the sparrows let people leave. It was pure survival at that point. She cared about her brother and herself, not about making sure everyone got out.

Edited by Newstar

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8 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:

 

So Arya is sanitized and that's good, but Tyrion is sanitized and it's bad?

Doesn't seem like a particularly consistent framework to hang a "they improved the women and dropped the men" conclusion on...


The "jokes" scene was shite, but that had nothing to do with him being "sanitized" it was just an attempt at awkward anti-humor comedy that backfired and sucked;
why did they have to make Tyrion as annoying and unfunny as Patch Adams or Joe Piscopo when he's still funny and suave everywhere else?
Stupid.

Right now I only remember the Podrick scene and them meeting the Frey sons, both scenes were awesome.

Bronn wasn't "sanitized" until the beginning of S5, where he was still planning to kill Lollys' sister after backing out of supporting Tyrion for selfish reasons - I hope he stays and gets to do or suggest something edgy again right when the audience forgot he wasn't too good of a person, but yeah.

The difference between making Arya more likable and removing the edge from Bronn is, I suppose, that even in the book you are supposed to cheer for Arya, while Bronn is a slimy opportunist who drops Tyrion the moment he got a better offer from someone else, while in the show he remained Tyrion's buddy for much, much longer, only dropping Tyrion during the trial.  And later he had this annoying cop-show dynamic with Jaime/Larry.  

The jokes and drinking game scenes weren't examples for Tyrion being sanitized, if you look at the book Tyrion does a LOT of shady, selfish and petty things, while on the show he doesn't or is portrayed as much more justified. The only two examples of him acting genuinely shady are 1) when he hired the Mountain Clans, promising them support to slaughter the Andal populace of the Vale and 2) When he presented sex slaves to Daenery's enemies.

If you look, you'll see that while I liked the show versions of Shae and Cersei as she existed in the early season, I do think it was ultimately a mistake and made both characters come off worse than in the books.

And well, they did drop the ball on Jaime, Mance and Euron.

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38 minutes ago, dsug said:

I liked that the Tyrells had some compassion in them. Shows that all nobility isn't evil and selfish. Margaery could have cut and run during the trial, but she didn't. She wanted to save everyone. She would have, too. 

And we all know if that if the show made the Tyrells the Lannister 2.0 there would have been complaints about how depressing and nihilistic and cynical and blah blah blah. 

As for Cersei, what comic books are people reading? Yeah, she was definitely particularly horrible in the last episode, but that all had thematic value. Revenge, cruelty, disregard for consequences and the common people, losing her damn mind. I agree she looks like a soccer mom, that that dress was hot

It is true that it gave a nice contrast, as you notice I'm fairly on the fence about them making the characters kinder on the show. On one hand I like it and it's needed sometimes, because television is different from reading a book, on the other it sometimes frustrates me. I actually hope we get to see full on Mad Queen Cersei in season 7.  

Well for one I could compare her to Magneto.  She used to be 80s/90s Magneto, now she's more 60s Magneto. It was the abruptness of it all I think; she went from "I love my children and blame my incest for Joffrey's behaviour" to book!Cersei. 

With the dress it's really just I don't like the material, and that the metal pieces make her neck look incredibly narrow and long. The new one for seaosn 7 is better in that regard, but I find all the glitter odd.

28 minutes ago, dsug said:

Lol I wanted Margaery to get out, but I also wanted Cersei to get her sweet revenge, so I was definitely torn. Even if she got out in time, she still would have died in the blast, though.

Yep, that explosion obliterated the whole district. Her screaming at the High Seption to let them go was really just to tear on our heartstrings and make her death have more of an emotional impact.

They succeeded in doing so.

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26 minutes ago, Newstar said:

There was nothing "nice" about Olenna. She admitted to murdering Joffrey and was completely unapologetic about it. Nor did she seem terribly concerned about Tyrion and Sansa being blamed for the crime.

Well Sansa was long gone.
Tyrion probably wouldn't be perceived as an "innocent victim" be her to the extent Sansa might have (especially since in the show it's kinda his fault that he's blamed), saving Marg from Joffrey was very important to her and she probably considered it an acceptable price.

None of that translates into "nothing nice" - more like not ENTIRELY nice.


Oh and why in seven hells should she have felt sorry for killing Joffrey lmao

26 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Olenna loved the Tyrells--well, her grandkids, at least--but she had no use for anyone else, and she made that abundantly clear.

She did at least "pretend" to want the best for Sansa when they were speaking.

26 minutes ago, Newstar said:

It was a facade, not that Olenna ever bothered appearing kind and considerate to anyone other than Margaery. As for Margaery, though, there are hints in the show that she's not as kind and caring as she appears. She cheerfully needled Cersei about her age and drinking habits, for starters,

Well nothing wrong with being a bit of a douche every once in a while - also she probably didn't think Cersei was a saint either.

This was after Cersei had threatened to kill her in her sleep for saying sister, right?

 

26 minutes ago, Newstar said:

and her pious shtick with the High Sparrow was clearly an act (which she dropped the minute she believed their lives were in danger).

Um... huh?

Of bloody course it was an act. If it hadn't been, it would've meant her will was broken by the Sparrows which would've been depressing.

She was playing those sanctimonious cunts to get herself and Lancel out of the undeserved trouble.

26 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Was she? If she had tried to leave on her own, the sparrows would have barred the way, which is why she was trying to convince the High Sparrow to evacuate everyone and let the sparrows let people leave. It was pure survival at that point. She cared about her brother and herself, not about making sure everyone got out.

She clearly cared for Loras and her father - not sure about anyone else, but that's good enough for me.

In fact, insisting Loras came with her probably lessened her chances for leaving as he was still kinda on trial.

Christ does everyone have an agenda on this board

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36 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

The difference between making Arya more likable and removing the edge from Bronn is, I suppose, that even in the book you are supposed to cheer for Arya, while Bronn is a slimy opportunist who drops Tyrion the moment he got a better offer from someone else, while in the show he remained Tyrion's buddy for much, much longer, only dropping Tyrion during the trial.  And later he had this annoying cop-show dynamic with Jaime/Larry.  

That's why I compared Arya to Tyrion, because both were "good guys with edge" while Bronn not quite as much.

From a certain perspective, dropping Tyrion right when he's facing execution was even worse, but that's neither here nor there.

36 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

The jokes and drinking game scenes weren't examples for Tyrion being sanitized, if you look at the book Tyrion does a LOT of shady, selfish and petty things, while on the show he doesn't or is portrayed as much more justified. The only two examples of him acting genuinely shady are 1) when he hired the Mountain Clans, promising them support to slaughter the Andal populace of the Vale and 2) When he presented sex slaves to Daenery's enemies.

Yeah but why is sanitizing him bad while sanitizing Arya by leaving out the deserter bit (or putting Beric and Thoros on her list - that wasn't in the show right?) is good?

Or, I suppose it's because the shades were more of a part of Tyrion's appeal as a character while Arya's better as a hero? I dunno... guess that probably makes sense.

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Posted (edited)

36 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Yep, that explosion obliterated the whole district. Her screaming at the High Seption to let them go was really just to tear on our heartstrings and make her death have more of an emotional impact.

They succeeded in doing so.

It was a bit disappointing though that the HS went out as a meek, tottering fool - especially his S5 portrayal clearly showed that this persona was masking the strong, authoritative, wrathful fanatic that he really was.

If it hadn't been for that, the "pfft nonsense you must be kidding I don't even know what to do" face he makes at the end would've been cool, but it was kinda disappointing this way.

They also kept forgetting Pycelle's true nature, though he at least got to back-fist one kid before he got ganked.



But that's off topic I think


PS: Would've been awesome if the HS faced Kinvara instead, or something like that - interesting interactions between a religious fanatic who probably thinks having no magical powers makes him holier than witches the way the Christians did, and a fanatic with supernatural powers whom he can't just arrest because he has no jurisdiction over her.

And if Lancel had also stuck around he'd run into Tyrion again and that would've been awesome too.


Hope some Sparrows stick around for that at least.

Edited by Pink Fat Rast

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28 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

maester Aemon

That's a surprising pick. Maester Aemon? I always thought he was just as boring in the books as he was in the show. 

In what way do you think he is better in the show? 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

 

There was nothing "nice" about Olenna. She admitted to murdering Joffrey and was completely unapologetic about it. Nor did she seem terribly concerned about Tyrion and Sansa being blamed for the crime. Olenna loved the Tyrells--well, her grandkids, at least--but she had no use for anyone else, and she made that abundantly clear.

It was a facade, not that Olenna ever bothered appearing kind and considerate to anyone other than Margaery. As for Margaery, though, there are hints in the show that she's not as kind and caring as she appears. She cheerfully needled Cersei about her age and drinking habits, for starters, and her pious shtick with the High Sparrow was clearly an act (which she dropped the minute she believed their lives were in danger).

One difference between the show and the books is that Book Margaery dropped Sansa like a bad habit the moment it became clear that Sansa would not be of any use to the Tyrells, whereas TV Margaery comforted Sansa about the marriage. To me, though, that doesn't mean that TV Margaery was necessarily any kinder; TV Margaery pointed out in that conversation that Sansa and Tyrion's future children might be very powerful, so cultivating a good relationship with Sansa was just basic PR.

 

Was she? If she had tried to leave on her own, the sparrows would have barred the way, which is why she was trying to convince the High Sparrow to evacuate everyone and let the sparrows let people leave. It was pure survival at that point. She cared about her brother and herself, not about making sure everyone got out.

I know that most of it was a facade. But there were too many small hints that even Olenna was more benevolent than her thoroughly nasty book counterpart. The thing that does stand out to me the most, is their treatment of Sansa, specifically the gesture of standing in as her family at Sansa's forced wedding, that Margaery comforted Sansa and that at the very least Margaery once again looked distressed when Shae accused Tyrion and Sansa.
 Olenna of course knew that, by then, Sansa was with Littlefinger.

And come on, do you really think I don't know that Maragery's "piety" was an act? It was all a game to get out of jail while also destroying Cersei (I'm certain the idea to bann trial by combat was Margaery's idea) Why would Margaery stick with a religion that would condemn her brother? She played her part as she always does.

Also being mean to somebody as nasty as Cersei (who had previously threatened to murder her with little provocation) doesn't exactly reflect poorly on somebody. And to her credit she plotted to have Cersei shipped to Casterly Rock, not to have her strangled in her sleep.

Her first reaction on realizing Cersei was planning some kind of attack on the Sept was not to stealthily grab Loras "I'll see to his wounds!" and sneak out of there, it was to loudly proclaim "We all have to leave!" I'm not convinced that she didn't care about the other people there at all. The sparrows only barred her way once the High Septon told them to, which was a direct result of her speaking up.

54 minutes ago, Pink Fat Rast said:


None of that translates into "nothing nice" - more like not ENTIRELY nice.
 

^ Basically this.

Edited by Orphalesion

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

It was all a game to get out of jail while also destroying Cersei (I'm certain the idea to bann trial by combat was Margaery's idea)

If it was it would've been ironic though - maybe should've been content with the walk of atonement and stopped poking the lion with her scary necromancer mage?

Could've staid alive then. But I think that wasn't her doing, I think Lancel told HS about Gregor and then they talked to Tommen.

Quote

Why would Margaery stick with a religion that would condemn her brother? She played her part as she always does.

All plays into my theory - the evidence is piling up...

Edited by Pink Fat Rast

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2 hours ago, RhaenysB said:

That's a surprising pick. Maester Aemon? I always thought he was just as boring in the books as he was in the show. 

In what way do you think he is better in the show? 

Because the actor, Peter Vaughan, was simply and utterly superb and his performances are in a style that I particularly admire.

Do you remember him in The Remains of the Day, as Anthony Hopkin's dad?

 

 

 

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