Xray the Enforcer Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Sadness. I actually enjoyed blood-sport grocery shopping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 I moved out when I was still in high school, and never went back. I don't think I could 'afford' it either, it was just very important for me to do so, and so I found ways to get by. I did things I guess many here wouldn't have done. I'm not saying my situation applies to others, but for me it would have been worse to stay comfortably 'at home' than endure hardships and often ~poverty on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacuna Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 I see a lot of people describing similar problems here, so what do we do, and how far do we go? Caps on tuition fees/student housing prices, regulation against "predatory" banking luring people into debt, increase minimum wage, better job security for entry level, combat the idea that college/uni is essential, (I was recently looking into switching jobs, and I swear, you need a bachelor's degree to mop the floor at Burger King these days)... I had more examples when I was thinking about this yesterday, but now they've gone into hiding. Anyways, more people are working past retirement age, and automation is reducing the need for new hirings in many professions, with a lot more to come I think. Soon the only solution I see is either to create a shit-ton of makework-jobs to prevent mass unemployment, or go for a basic income thing, with the controversial redistribution of wealth that goes with it. For sure, young people have to become educated voters, as well as involving themselves in the political process (he said, hypocritically.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loge Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Toth said: Nope, now it's till 20.00. Actually, there's no law requiring them to close any more, they do it by choice (except in Bavaria). The only remaining restriction is Sundays and official holidays. And there are ways around that too. Gas stations still sell (a very limited choice of) groceries, and in Berlin there's the Spätkauf, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalagarV2 Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 8 hours ago, Toth said: I'm not quite sure it is going to go away that way. Stereotypes are hard to kill, especially when it comes to perception of family. Case in point, one of the reasons I started this thread was an analysis of the latin word 'familia' and its original meaning of a group of households under the lash of the pater familias who had traditionally a lot of rights to interfere in the lives of his children, grandchildren and other relatives of side branches. It was an archaic part of the earliest days of Rome, but over time lawmakers saw it necessary to deconstruct the political rights of the pater familias in order to liberate his children and create more independant actors in Roman core society. I read that shortly after having read a letter by Sidonius Apollinaris from ca. 370 AD. In it he describes the conflict of an acquainted noblewoman whose husband suddenly died and whose father now demanded she should get back under his roof. Apparently their relationship was pretty terrible beforehand, because the woman seemed terrified of that prospect and insists staying with the family of her late husband. Legally she should have been able to do as she pleases, ever since Augustus (that Augustus) made it law that a widowed woman doesn't need to get back under the guardianship of her father and can stay wherever she wants, with the only restriction that she needs some kind of guardianship as a legal and economic precaution (in the Eastern Roman Empire, this guardian may very well be another woman). So despite the overwhelming legal case of his daughter, this sucker still insisted on his traditional position of pater familias and she therefore had to obey him some 400 years after this position was effectively eroded to nothing but a word. And still Sidonius Apollinaris had to ask a local bishop with his letter to intervene on behalf of the woman. You can make the case that this is a perfect example of law not reflecting reality and that the state's interference in family matters wasn't the result of the declining role of the pater familias like many historians claim it was, but it's still pretty jarring how damn hard those 'traditional' views on family are to kill once they have appropriately settled in. I don't think the Roman state ever made any serious attempt at limiting the power/potestas of the pater familias. The Roman law system was not systematic enough for such an attempt; in principle, new decrees superseded older ones which lost power if they were not reissued by new emperors (although attempts at preservation/codification were done in the late empire, especially during Sidonius' lifetime in the 400s). Local traditions were considered in judging cases as well (in Egypt, for instance, women had long enjoyed more freedom than elsewhere, and the Romans largely refrained from tempering with it). Some limitations on the paterfamilias were imposed in the later empire, e.g. forbidding fathers from forcing their daughters into prostitution, and some of the father's powers declined. I don't think this represents the outcome of sustained attack on the pater potestas from the state, however, and laws were certainly not intended to make women more independent (although it may have been an unintended consequence) - probably the intention was rather to increase the power of husbands. I guess your point stands, though, in that traditional views are hard to change. On the other hand, premodern states had very limited tools (or aspirations) to enact such change anyway. Regarding the topic at hand: historically, parents would die off or become infirm much sooner than from the 19th/20th century on, and the need of extra workhands was paramount, so retaining kids at home for an extended periods was necessary. As an interesting aside, it has been calculated that the average size of Egyptian households in antiquity was ca 4.5 people (varying somewhat between countryside and cities), not that far from the moder nuclear-family, due to the large death tolls. Better health allowing more kids to grow up and move out was combined with more mobility: young adults could/were forced to move from country side to city in order to find work. Voila. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowleper Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 2 hours ago, James Arryn said: I moved out when I was still in high school, and never went back. I don't think I could 'afford' it either, it was just very important for me to do so, and so I found ways to get by. I did things I guess many here wouldn't have done. I'm not saying my situation applies to others, but for me it would have been worse to stay comfortably 'at home' than endure hardships and often ~poverty on my own. I think a lot of people make this choice - or have in the past. But a great deal more have had this choice made for them. Staying with your well to do, or in any case - financially stable family is a luxury. 2 hours ago, lacuna said: I see a lot of people describing similar problems here, so what do we do, and how far do we go? Caps on tuition fees/student housing prices, regulation against "predatory" banking luring people into debt, increase minimum wage, better job security for entry level, combat the idea that college/uni is essential, (I was recently looking into switching jobs, and I swear, you need a bachelor's degree to mop the floor at Burger King these days)... I had more examples when I was thinking about this yesterday, but now they've gone into hiding. Historically the experiences of poor neighborhoods (in the US) is different than the middle class (and very often very white) cultural expectations people have internalized. It's just now that this 'new' normal is touching more white kids -- and a lack of opportunity and a lack of financial stability and a reliance on familial support has become more prominent to a lot of families that ignored these social issues in the past (because it didn't effect them). Which is probably a good thing, because it means that something might actually be done to address these concerns. Maybe. Or possibly a broader underclass will just continue to be ignored. In a lot of ways, it's a little like drug policy. People didn't care when it was an issue effecting poor urban neighborhoods -- but now heroine and opioids use has penetrated the middle and upper classes and suddenly it is an issue deserving coverage, compassion and legal leniency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 4 hours ago, drawkcabi said: I not only left home when I was 21, I moved 5,000 miles away. I lasted a whole six months before I asked to come back. Now I'm in my 40's and living with my parents but the relationship has evolved into more them living with me rather than me living with them. I've become the head of household in most ways. When I was in my 20's and going through a bad time and depression I was embarrassed by my living situation, it wasn't until my 30's I started to become comfortable with it, and now I'm perfectly content with it. I've learned an important thing about myself over the years, I don't like to be alone, I just like being left alone. Living with my parents for the most part accommodate that lifestyle well enough, more than living by myself and most likely more than if I was living with someone I was in a relationship with. I've learned not to try to contort myself to live in an overall way of society's expectations. I value my own comfort and happiness more than the feeling of I'm playing the right part. I've also come to somewhat resent the words "you should..." when being told what to do to fix something about my life that doesn't feel broken to me. "Basement Dweller" and any other similar derogatory term doesn't cause any feeling of shame in me any longer, but again, it does usually conjure some resentment within me that some feel the need to use terms in an insulting manner, as an implication of being less than, towards anyone who has found contentment in how they live, but I guess that applies to many people in different ways. I feel bad for you that you feel like you hve to contort yourself in social situations to not bring up subjects like living with your mum which is ...not a bad thing anyway and especially not in your situation where it makes the absolute most sense... I've never gotten flack from living with my parents in real life; only see some vague shittiness about it online I'm not ashamed to live with my parents I jusT can't wait to leave to hve my own privacy and so I don't get into little arguments with them about stupid shit but being 23 and working part time, studying for a masters and living at home (my exact situation like yours) just strikes me as perfectly normal even though I often find MYSELF insulting this situation and wanting desperately to be in a full time job in my own little place but actually when I really stop and think there really shouldn't be anything less valid about working part time, studying, volunteering whilst living with parents It's this idea as well that you never stop being a parent and that your kids will be dependent on you in some way well past 18 which is another reason I dont want kids haha I'm kind of selfish when it comes to my own time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 I judge myself more than anyone else has ever judged me - I'm 23 this month and I really don't want to be spending another year or two in the same situation...I think this is mostly down to living in a kinda rural area and being BORED AS SHIT I want to live in a city where I can actually go out and have more hobbies and see friends more often and meet cool attractive and fun people my age to date and or befriend because where I am at the moment sucks...it's gorgeous but if you're young it's fucking BORING and wages are lowest here than anywhere else in the UK I THINK even though this is a really expensive place to live? Just can't Wat to get out and move back to the city I went to uni but at this point I would move to any city in the UK if the job was good and I am sure I would make friends easily enough just don't want to waste my whole 20s in this place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowleper Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said: I judge myself more than anyone else has ever judged me - I'm 23 this month and I really don't want to be spending another year or two in the same situation...I think this is mostly down to living in a kinda rural area and being BORED AS SHIT I want to live in a city where I can actually go out and have more hobbies and see friends more often and meet cool attractive and fun people my age to date and or befriend because where I am at the moment sucks...it's gorgeous but if you're young it's fucking BORING and wages are lowest here than anywhere else in the UK I THINK even though this is a really expensive place to live? Just can't Wat to get out and move back to the city I went to uni but at this point I would move to any city in the UK if the job was good and I am sure I would make friends easily enough just don't want to waste my whole 20s in this place... There are a lot of people on this board from the UK. You could always try to network with the least creepy ones (stay away from lessthanluke). Strike up a correspondence, and maybe one of them will allow you to crash on their couch for a couple months while you get a job and then work on moving into a shared housing situation with people who aren't all that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Just now, snowleper said: There are a lot of people on this board from the UK. You could always try to network with the least creepy ones (stay away from lessthanluke). Strike up a correspondence, and maybe one of them will allow you to crash on their couch for a couple months while you get a job and then work on moving into a shared housing situation with people who aren't all that bad. Oi - luke is a good dude lol I doubt anyone from the boards would want ME on their couch for any length of time I'm just working on learning to drive and getting some more experience volunteering that will translate into a paying job elsewhere - I just don't want to be wasting my whole 20s doing this but that's ridiculous and is part of me just having a quarter life crisis about the most stupid shit even though I only turn 23 this month LMAO I have SO MUCH TIME but I keep telling myself I need to do everything straight away or I'm somehow failing in life and that I'll never be as healthy and attractive as I am now (a depressing prospect seing I'm neither of those things NOW) but these fears aren't really grounded in reality and are just, like I said, some weird mid life crisis where im constantly telling myself I'm wasting my potential and am doing nothing with my life even though I'm actually doing LOTS with my life and moving in retry positive directions I'm jus saying I judge myself more than anyone else ever has so I feel bad OP has had shit for living with parents in a totally understandable situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowleper Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said: Oi - luke is a good dude lol I doubt anyone from the boards would want ME on their couch for any length of time I'm just working on learning to drive and getting some more experience volunteering that will translate into a paying job elsewhere - I just don't want to be wasting my whole 20s doing this but that's ridiculous and is part of me just having a quarter life crisis about the most stupid shit even though I only turn 23 this month LMAO I have SO MUCH TIME but I keep telling myself I need to do everything straight away or I'm somehow failing in life and that I'll never be as healthy and attractive as I am now (a depressing prospect seing I'm neither of those things NOW) but these fears aren't really grounded in reality and are just, like I said, some weird mid life crisis where im constantly telling myself I'm wasting my potential and am doing nothing with my life even though I'm actually doing LOTS with my life and moving in retry positive directions I'm jus saying I judge myself more than anyone else ever has so I feel bad OP has had shit for living with parents in a totally understandable situation When I was younger I ended up moving to a different area to get away from where I was from. I was able to do this through extended relatives who didn't know me, and I didn't know them. Friends can act in the same way. I don't know you Theda - but like most people, you are probably alright. I doubt you are a thief - or a creepy person who would be unpleasant to live with for a short time. I'm sure plenty of people would give you a fair shake in order to help you acquire some more opportunities. (Which beats moving to an area on your own and then trying to secure living space and work while living in a car and showering at the ymca). Go ahead and save up if you can - get a license, buy a car. But I would certainly recommend moving to an area where you would probably have more opportunities. Even if these opportunities just mean meeting different people. And I would do this as soon as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, snowleper said: When I was younger I ended up moving to a different area to get away from where I was from. I was able to do this through extended relatives who didn't know me, and I didn't know them. Friends can act in the same way. I don't know you Theda - but like most people, you are probably alright. I doubt you are a thief - or a creepy person who would be unpleasant to live with for a short time. I'm sure plenty of people would give you a fair shake in order to help you acquire some more opportunities. (Which beats moving to an area on your own and then trying to secure living space and work while living in a car and showering at the ymca). Go ahead and save up if you can - get a license, buy a car. But I would certainly recommend moving to an area where you would probably have more opportunities. Even if these opportunities just mean meeting different people. And I would do this as soon as you can. That's what I want to do just move to a place with more opportunities, career wise, social wise, creativity and hobbies wise...I just can't burden anyone with me to do it hah I feel like I have to have a really great job offer first and then move to a place for the job and start from there I just can't imagine it happening any other way I did live with my nan for awhile which was close to the city I want to move back to and hve loads of friends in but it just wasn't worth the commute and then no decent job and no volunteering in a museum..I'm gonna try and be nicer to myself until I can drive and then I'm booting myself up the arse until I am OUT OF HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted April 9, 2017 Author Share Posted April 9, 2017 1 hour ago, FalagarV2 said: I don't think the Roman state ever made any serious attempt at limiting the power/potestas of the pater familias. The Roman law system was not systematic enough for such an attempt; in principle, new decrees superseded older ones which lost power if they were not reissued by new emperors (although attempts at preservation/codification were done in the late empire, especially during Sidonius' lifetime in the 400s). Local traditions were considered in judging cases as well (in Egypt, for instance, women had long enjoyed more freedom than elsewhere, and the Romans largely refrained from tempering with it). Some limitations on the paterfamilias were imposed in the later empire, e.g. forbidding fathers from forcing their daughters into prostitution, and some of the father's powers declined. I don't think this represents the outcome of sustained attack on the pater potestas from the state, however, and laws were certainly not intended to make women more independent (although it may have been an unintended consequence) - probably the intention was rather to increase the power of husbands. Nah, Augustus' idea itself was actually rather simple: He needed more aristocratic babies so that Rome's decreasing elite won't suffer the Spartian fate and for some reason he thought the most simple way to improve the baby-making was lifting most discouraging restrictions on divorce and remarriage so that noble women don't get stuck with fruitless husbands, that accompanied with laws that give more rights to a woman the moment she gives birth to a child. That he and his predecessors somewhat eroded the position of the pater familias was purely incidental in my opinion, but it still happened over time. But you're right, women's rights had absolutely nothing to do with it, even though this didn't stop Augustus and his successors to brag with it. The author from the book I've read wanted to draw some broad picture in which an ambiguous central power purposely tried to erode all competing power structures and the family was one of them. I did think that some of his ideas went a little overboard and had more to do with the fact that many of the institutions of the Republic he took as an example were only disassembled because they were designed to run a city-state, not an empire (the legislative assemblies for example). There were still some good observations about the decline of the pater familiars there, that's why I've noted it. And because I thought that anecdote of Apollinaris was rather interesting in seeing how thick-headed Roman aristocrats could be in regards to what they consider traditionally normal behavior for a daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Much the same as the ancient Greek Oikos - father as head of the household and daughter never being her own individual self - always under the rule of a man in her life whether that is father, brother or husband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowleper Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said: Much the same as the ancient Greek Oikos - father as head of the household and daughter never being her own individual self - always under the rule of a man in her life whether that is father, brother or husband Not to be too glib or facetious -- but I do know a rather nice lesbian coven. They are pretty good at woodworking and growing hemp. You may, technically have other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckwheat Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 11 hours ago, Toth said: It's still causing a lot of anxiety in me. Especially about people finding out that I live with my mother. I could never explain our situation in real life the way I could online, because that would make me be seen like a miserable crybaby. Everyone has hardships, that's no excuse for living with your mother.I keep my familial situation a secret and dodge every question about it, because I'm scared as hell that people make fun of me for it. Weirdly enough, I have yet to meet any fellow student in real life who lives with his parents, something that would take some of that fear off my back. But either they are just as tight-lipped as I am, or they simply don't exist in my subjects. It's especially bad since I am about to become a teacher and my current job is being a teacher. My worst fear is that I am seen with my mother in public and end up losing all respect due to it. That's how negative living with your parents or doing things like getting groceries with them was seen in the tiny ass village I grew up in. Heck, I was made the laughing-stock for it back when I was 16, so how much worse is it now when I'm 23? Most people are not that judgy ... and those that are, at least you know who is not worth your time. I can sympathise with your situation and I am sure most normal people would. I am sorry that the people with whom you grew up with judged you for such nonsense. 5 hours ago, lacuna said: Soon the only solution I see is either to create a shit-ton of makework-jobs to prevent mass unemployment, or go for a basic income thing, with the controversial redistribution of wealth that goes with it. Or reduce the typical number orlf working hours? So that 20 hours a week or so would be considered full-time instead of 40. 2 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said: I judge myself more than anyone else has ever judged me - I do it as well. It is not a kind thing to do to oneself. I am a bit furter along than you two, Theda and Toft, in that I am 25 and finished my MA last year and been interning for the last half a year. I moved away to do it, and I am uncomfortable moving back to my family soon. It has nothing to do with fear of people judging me because of it, and everything to do with feeling that much freer and more independent and more adult when I am away - I like myself much better that way and I am just at a point in my life when I want to have my own household. It does not sound like a viable opportunity with no stable job prospects in my field though. And I am sure I am not the only person in that situation. So it is mostly not laziness, most people do want more independence like that, but lack opportunities - and this is nothing to be ashamed about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theda Baratheon Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 17 minutes ago, snowleper said: Not to be too glib or facetious -- but I do know a rather nice lesbian coven. They are pretty good at woodworking and growing hemp. You may, technically have other options. I always wanted to get into woodworking lol 1 minute ago, Buckwheat said: Most people are not that judgy ... and those that are, at least you know who is not worth your time. I can sympathise with your situation and I am sure most normal people would. I am sorry that the people with whom you grew up with judged you for such nonsense. Or reduce the typical number orlf working hours? So that 20 hours a week or so would be considered full-time instead of 40. I do it as well. It is not a kind thing to do to oneself. I am a bit furter along than you two, Theda and Toft, in that I am 25 and finished my MA last year and been interning for the last half a year. I moved away to do it, and I am uncomfortable moving back to my family soon. It has nothing to do with fear of people judging me because of it, and everything to do with feeling that much freer and more independent and more adult when I am away - I like myself much better that way and I am just at a point in my life when I want to have my own household. It does not sound like a viable opportunity with no stable job prospects in my field though. And I am sure I am not the only person in that situation. So it is mostly not laziness, most people do want more independence like that, but lack opportunities - and this is nothing to be ashamed about. Yep I juse want to feel independent anf have more privacy away from home but also want more opportunities for...everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckwheat Posted April 9, 2017 Share Posted April 9, 2017 Anyway, thanks for starting this discussion, it is very interesting. Might contribute more if time allows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalagarV2 Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 5 hours ago, Toth said: Nah, Augustus' idea itself was actually rather simple: He needed more aristocratic babies so that Rome's decreasing elite won't suffer the Spartian fate and for some reason he thought the most simple way to improve the baby-making was lifting most discouraging restrictions on divorce and remarriage so that noble women don't get stuck with fruitless husbands, that accompanied with laws that give more rights to a woman the moment she gives birth to a child. That he and his predecessors somewhat eroded the position of the pater familias was purely incidental in my opinion, but it still happened over time. But you're right, women's rights had absolutely nothing to do with it, even though this didn't stop Augustus and his successors to brag with it. The author from the book I've read wanted to draw some broad picture in which an ambiguous central power purposely tried to erode all competing power structures and the family was one of them. I did think that some of his ideas went a little overboard and had more to do with the fact that many of the institutions of the Republic he took as an example were only disassembled because they were designed to run a city-state, not an empire (the legislative assemblies for example). There were still some good observations about the decline of the pater familiars there, that's why I've noted it. And because I thought that anecdote of Apollinaris was rather interesting in seeing how thick-headed Roman aristocrats could be in regards to what they consider traditionally normal behavior for a daughter. Hm, what book is this? I don't doubt that was the case for Augustus' decree, but I don't think later emperors followed up on it, or that imperial legislators had the power to bend family structures to their will in most of the empire. The thesis re: competing power structures sounds interesting, but the central power itself needed such micro-structures, so eroding them wouldn't necessarily be in its interest. I've just skimmed through some material on legal developments (Arjava), which suggests that despite some erosion the basic principles of the pater familias remained throughout the sixth century and was still respected by Justinian. Change clearly happened, but I don't think it can be ascribed to imperial legislation. Still, not really my field, so would be interested in taking a look at the book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 5 hours ago, FalagarV2 said: Hm, what book is this? I don't doubt that was the case for Augustus' decree, but I don't think later emperors followed up on it, or that imperial legislators had the power to bend family structures to their will in most of the empire. The thesis re: competing power structures sounds interesting, but the central power itself needed such micro-structures, so eroding them wouldn't necessarily be in its interest. I've just skimmed through some material on legal developments (Arjava), which suggests that despite some erosion the basic principles of the pater familias remained throughout the sixth century and was still respected by Justinian. Change clearly happened, but I don't think it can be ascribed to imperial legislation. Still, not really my field, so would be interested in taking a look at the book! Oh, I think there were definitely ways. Look at Augustus re: Ovid or Julia if you want micro-examples of his enforcing familial morality through imperial power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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