Did Lyanna commit suicide?

[Prof. Cecily]

27 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

Pffft, Northern Bohemia, perhaps. But here, in Southern Moravia, we have excellent white wines! Pálava totally rules!

 

Yep :-) - Just to make sure: I meant "sour grapes" as the psychological coping mechanism of demeaning what one cannot get :-)

Only because you're not familiar with Rueda whites! Nor Galician whites. Nor Valencian whites!

Still, I see I must try  Pálava.

Yes, sour grapes is from a well known fable.

But back to the suicide.

I don't know if she did or not. She's 16, more or less at the time of her death. 

Does she know about her father's death, or her brother's, or Rhaegar's?

It's hard to say how she'd react to all that.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

But back to the suicide.

I don't know if she did or not. She's 16, more or less at the time of her death. 

Does she know about her father's death, or her brother's, or Rhaegar's?

It's hard to say how she'd react to all that.

Hard to tell what she knows or not but I suspect that GRRM might have used the classical element of going into labour under the impact of bad news aka Rhaegar's death (like in the legend of Tristran), and Ned's memory of her pleading like Sansa did when pleading with him to keep Lady from harm, IMHO, suggests that she knew of the fate of Rhaegar's children.

However, I think it's safe to say that it was not suicide. She must have been feverish for quite some time, to be too weak to speak, and the "bed of blood" means childbirth. She was basically clinging to life with all her strength until she extracted that promise from Ned which made fear go away from her eyes - that doesn't exactly suggest a death wish for me.

[HoodedCrow]

It doesn't seem like Martin would go full Juliette. But he might have!

[Agent 326]

On 5/30/2017 at 0:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

Not sure if this question has already been asked, but while reading another thread it popped in my head.

We know for a fact that Ned found Lyanna covered in blood, and the widely held opinion is that this was due to childbirth.  However, what if after hearing the news that Rheagar was killed by Robert and faced with the realization that she would be sent back to Robert for marriage Lyanna decided to take her own life?

We know Lyanna was skeptical as to whether Robert would ever be faithful to one woman.  There is a lot of speculation that Lyanna was not kidnapped but instead ran away with Rheagar, got pregnant and had his child (Jon).  If that is the case, she will now have to marry the man who killed her love, and what about the baby? What will happen to her baby when Robert finds out who the father is?

When Ned defeats Dayne, Lyanna decides she'd rather die than go back, so she slits her wrists or sticks a dagger in her belly.  Ned arrives at her chamber just in time for her to make him promise to care for her baby and protect him from Robert.

This could explain why the Kingsguard is guarding the TOJ, because the baby could have been born weeks or months earlier and would be, in their eyes the new king.  

I am not promoting this theory as fact or arguing for its acceptance, just wondering what other people think.

 

I think the reason the King's Guard are their is because number 1, Rheagar told them to be there and 2 they likely had the intention of killing everyone but Ned, after all Jon is Ned's nephew, and the other 6 probably can't be trusted, and this way if they can't get captured and tortured into revealing Jon's whereabouts.

[Prof. Cecily]

13 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

It doesn't seem like Martin would go full Juliette. But he might have!

From despair at Rhaegar's death at the hands of Robert, her betrothed?

Do I see an odd sort of mirroring with another duel, 'fought' before this at Riverrun?

Or is the Long Wait affecting me in a weakened, pre-coffee state?

 

[Prof. Cecily]

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Hard to tell what she knows or not but I suspect that GRRM might have used the classical element of going into labour under the impact of bad news aka Rhaegar's death (like in the legend of Tristran), and Ned's memory of her pleading like Sansa did when pleading with him to keep Lady from harm, IMHO, suggests that she knew of the fate of Rhaegar's children.

However, I think it's safe to say that it was not suicide. She must have been feverish for quite some time, to be too weak to speak, and the "bed of blood" means childbirth. She was basically clinging to life with all her strength until she extracted that promise from Ned which made fear go away from her eyes - that doesn't exactly suggest a death wish for me.

Unless, she felt the promise eased her departure from this life. 

How is suicide seen in Westeros?

Does it have the negative impact it did here?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Ned was in the Vale, Benjen was a boy younger than Lyanna. I never said "they would lock Lyanna away." I specifically talked about "father", and parent-child relationship. Since when is Rickard Stark a "they" or a "pack"? He isn't. Hence, your argument is a straw-man argument.

Ned was with Lyanna at Harrenhal and was with Lyanna at least one other time. Still she never comes out and tells him she doesn't want to marry Robert. She only says he has a bastard and love won't change his ways. Why not tell him that she would rather not marry him when she tells him this? I mean she trusted Ned with her "promise" which was a pretty huge deal and most likely included keeping something from Robert.

I thought the whole "pack" thing is a Stark sayings. I figured the whole "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." was something Ned was told as a child and then told his children. If that's the case Lyanna never trusted her "pack" till she was already dying.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Unless, she felt the promise eased her departure from this life. 

How is suicide seen in Westeros?

Does it have the negative impact it did here?

You know, I can't actually recall any mention of a suicide...

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ned was with Lyanna at Harrenhal and was with Lyanna at least one other time. Still she never comes out and tells him she doesn't want to marry Robert. She only says he has a bastard and love won't change his ways. Why not tell him that she would rather not marry him when she tells him this?

It's not like we have the full recording of the whole conversation, though, so she might have been more explicit than in the bit that Ned remembers and that pertains to the assessment of Robert's character. But even if she never said it explicitely, do you feel that her assessment of her betrothed as a womanizer sounds like endorsement?

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I mean she trusted Ned with her "promise" which was a pretty huge deal and most likely included keeping something from Robert.

And she pleaded with him and was afraid that he wouldn't grant her wish, so love and trust overweighing duty was in no way a given.

BTW, you might want to recall the betrothals of the Tully daughters. Lysa didn't want to marry Jon Arryn and was pretty explicit about it, but fat good it did to her.

[WeKnowNothing]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ned was with Lyanna at Harrenhal and was with Lyanna at least one other time. Still she never comes out and tells him she doesn't want to marry Robert. She only says he has a bastard and love won't change his ways. Why not tell him that she would rather not marry him when she tells him this? I mean she trusted Ned with her "promise" which was a pretty huge deal and most likely included keeping something from Robert.

I thought the whole "pack" thing is a Stark sayings. I figured the whole "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." was something Ned was told as a child and then told his children. If that's the case Lyanna never trusted her "pack" till she was already dying.

Even if Lyanna did tell her father or brothers she didn't want to marry Robert, they would have forced her into the marriage anyway. The marriage wasn't really about her wishes or what she wanted; Robert and Rickard arranged the marriage without Lyanna's consent, which is made clear in the books. I think for her, running off/being abducted by Rhaegar would have been better. 

Yes, she must have felt she couldn't trust her family if they didn't even care about what she wanted. That must have been why she deserted herself from her 'pack,' which was escaping with Rhaegar. Though of course she did trust Ned and pled with him, but that was on behalf of Jon's life.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On Invalid Date at 1:58 PM, Chris Mormont said:

Not sure if this question has already been asked, but while reading another thread it popped in my head.

We know for a fact that Ned found Lyanna covered in blood, and the widely held opinion is that this was due to childbirth.  However, what if after hearing the news that Rheagar was killed by Robert and faced with the realization that she would be sent back to Robert for marriage Lyanna decided to take her own life?

We know Lyanna was skeptical as to whether Robert would ever be faithful to one woman.  There is a lot of speculation that Lyanna was not kidnapped but instead ran away with Rheagar, got pregnant and had his child (Jon).  If that is the case, she will now have to marry the man who killed her love, and what about the baby? What will happen to her baby when Robert finds out who the father is?

When Ned defeats Dayne, Lyanna decides she'd rather die than go back, so she slits her wrists or sticks a dagger in her belly.  Ned arrives at her chamber just in time for her to make him promise to care for her baby and protect him from Robert.

This could explain why the Kingsguard is guarding the TOJ, because the baby could have been born weeks or months earlier and would be, in their eyes the new king.  

I am not promoting this theory as fact or arguing for its acceptance, just wondering what other people think.

 

If you had said Lyanna had killed herself out of shame from all the deaths from the war her and Rhaegar caused and also her baby was stillborn and Robert was so wicked that Roose , Ramsay and Gregor piss their pants at the very mention of his name perhaps, But Robert is not a monster and Jon lives .

[Sea Dragon]

I don't think so. I did read somewhere in another thread here that the blood could have come from a c section. I mean, aren't Targearyen babies supposed to be hard to deliver? This is my idea and not a rule that I think everyone should believe. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It's not like we have the full recording of the whole conversation, though, so she might have been more explicit than in the bit that Ned remembers and that pertains to the assessment of Robert's character. But even if she never said it explicitely, do you feel that her assessment of her betrothed as a womanizer sounds like endorsement?

I feel like Ned would have included that in his thoughts when she mentioned the bastard and not changing his ways. Still she never says anything about not wanting to marry him. She could have then followed it with a "but I'll do my duty as a Stark." So no one would lock her in the crypts till the wedding.

 

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

BTW, you might want to recall the betrothals of the Tully daughters. Lysa didn't want to marry Jon Arryn and was pretty explicit about it, but fat good it did to her.

Your right Lysa made a fuss about it and it was duly noted by her family. So if she ever went missing with an attractive Prince/Lord people might suspect she went along willingly. No one tried to lock Lysa away after she made it clear she didn't want to get married to Jon Arryn either. Did it help her? No but it didn't hurt her either.

4 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Though of course she did trust Ned and pled with him, but that was on behalf of Jon's life.

Too bad she didn't trust Ned until she was already dying.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Ned was with Lyanna at Harrenhal and was with Lyanna at least one other time. Still she never comes out and tells him she doesn't want to marry Robert. She only says he has a bastard and love won't change his ways. Why not tell him that she would rather not marry him when she tells him this?

She tested the waters with Ned when she admitted her misgivings about Robert , which Ned waved away. Why would she then seek him out over it again later, when he lives in the Vale and is the 2nd son? And the fact that Ned remembers her non-endorsement of Robert so many years later should count as a clue that it wasn't some idle chit-chat between Lya and Ned either.

 

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If that's the case Lyanna never trusted her "pack" till she was already dying.

Trust is earned and can be lost right?

What do we call it again when people reason a woman is responsible, because she didn't say "no" when people forced her?

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I thought the whole "pack" thing is a Stark sayings. I figured the whole "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." was something Ned was told as a child and then told his children. If that's the case Lyanna never trusted her "pack" till she was already dying.

Sounds more like something Old Nan would have said than Rickard.

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I mean she trusted Ned with her "promise" which was a pretty huge deal and most likely included keeping something from Robert.

What a comparison - Lya weak with fever, dying and everyone else there who could or would protect her and her child dead. As if not asking for a promise from Ned was an option there.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

What do we call it again when people reason a woman is responsible, because she didn't say "no" when people forced her?

Your honestly going to attack my comparison after this? I think that's very unfair as I never said Lyanna was "responsible" for anything. 

 All I said is she never flat out said she didn't want to marry Robert Baratheon. While others like Olenna, Lysa and Arianne made it clear when they weren't happy with their betrothals or possible betrothals. No one locked them away. Like I said before it didn't help Lysa but it didn't make anything worse for her when she made her thoughts known.

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

everyone else there who could or would protect her and her child dead. As if not asking for a promise from Ned was an option there.

Why was she calling out to Ned while he was outside the TOJ if he was some last resort and she didn't want to see him? Wouldn't she want to try and hide her presence in the Tower and not scream out "Lord Eddard?"

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Why was she calling out to Ned while he was outside the TOJ if he was some last resort and she didn't want to see him?

Is that why she called out to him? Perhaps she wanted him to stop fighting and interfere and kill her guards? Perhaps she cried out in fear for his life as perhaps Arthur Dayne was about to strike a killing blow.

3 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Your honestly going to attack my comparison after this? I think that's very unfair as I never said Lyanna was "responsible" for anything. 

 All I said is she never flat out said she didn't want to marry Robert Baratheon. While others like Olenna, Lysa and Arianne made it clear when they weren't happy with their betrothals or possible betrothals. No one locked them away. Like I said before it didn't help Lysa but it didn't make anything worse for her when she made her thoughts known.

Well, I'll flat out ask you then - Do you hold it against her that she didn't say "no" to the people who decided this without ever bothering to ask her? Do you hold it against her that she didn't "trust" her father and elder brothers with her dislike of Robert? Do you hold it against her that she didn't tell Robert, "I don't want you!" straight to his face? Do you think it was her responsibility to say "no"? Or do you think it was her father's and Robert's responsibility to ask?

Lysa was married to Jon Arryn ASAP and shipped off to the Eyrie, a lonely castle with a tower thousands of meters up in the air, and the path up or down being an absolute hazard for your life without a guide. Sounds like "locked away" to me. Oh and she was forced to take an abortive medicine that likely messed up her body for the rest of her life. "didn't make things worse, my ...!"

[Cas Stark]

Lyanna, if she went with Rhaegar willingly, is yes, obviously responsible for a huge amount of bloodshed and death, including the torture deaths of her father and older brother.

We don't know...hopefully we will one day...why the two of them never sent out word that she was not abducted, if she went willingly, during all those long months, or if they did send word but it was lost.  One would think you would keep on sending word, though.

We don't know whether or not she believed that saying I don't want to marry Robert would have done her any good or no good, probably not have done her much good since he is her brother's best friend, is in love with her, and is one of the major houses.  She would probably be told that it wasn't going to get any better in terms of a husband.....

So, there would certainly according to me be more than enough reasons for her to kill herself, especially after Rhaegar also is killed by Robert. But I don't think that is what the TOJ dream is telling us and I don't think it fits with her character as it has been presented.  

[Ygrain]

15 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Why was she calling out to Ned while he was outside the TOJ if he was some last resort and she didn't want to see him? Wouldn't she want to try and hide her presence in the Tower and not scream out "Lord Eddard?"

 

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Is that why she called out to him? Perhaps she wanted him to stop fighting and interfere and kill her guards? Perhaps she cried out in fear for his life as perhaps Arthur Dayne was about to strike a killing blow.

Or perhaps she didn't call at all and it was only the voice of Vayon Poole mixing into the dream, because in Ned's memories, she addresses him as Ned, not Eddard.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Lysa was married to Jon Arryn ASAP and shipped off to the Eyrie, a lonely castle with a tower thousands of meters up in the air, and the path up or down being an absolute hazard for your life without a guide. Sounds like "locked away" to me. Oh and she was forced to take an abortive medicine that likely messed up her body for the rest of her life. "didn't make things worse, my ...!"

She stayed at Riverrun for the duration of the war and wasn't shipped off to the Eyrie ASAP. She stayed with Cat at Riverrun until Robb was born. She was even excited at the thought of her and Cat being pregnant at the same time. 

She drank moon tea well before the betrothal to Jon Arryn was ever in the works. After Jon Arryn's heirs were killed in the war he needed a wife to further the Arryn line and that's why that betrothal happened. If Jon Arryn's heir wasn't killed by Aerys and his other wasn't killed in battle Jon Arryn most likely would have never remarried. 

Lysa taking moon tea has nothing to do with her being upset about her marriage.

Kudos to Lysa though as she stuck up for herself and voiced her opinions. 

20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I'll flat out ask you then - Do you hold it against her that she didn't say "no" to the people who decided this without ever bothering to ask her? Do you hold it against her that she didn't "trust" her father and elder brothers with her dislike of Robert? Do you hold it against her that she didn't tell Robert, "I don't want you!" straight to his face? Do you think it was her responsibility to say "no"? Or do you think it was her father's and Robert's responsibility to ask?

Well my main line of thought at the very start was Robert had no way of knowing how Lyanna really felt about him so he can't be blamed for worshipping her. With the information he has to go off he had no way of knowing. 

However I also think it's sad the Starks weren't as close of a family as I pictured them to be and that they couldn't trust each other. 

[Ygrain]

7 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

he can't be blamed for worshipping her

Yeah, because when they happened to be together, he was constantly by her side, trying to get to know her... ah, wait. He was nowhere about when she was defending Howland, and at the feast, he was too busy getting himself dead drunk. He didn't seem to miss her when she was pulling her KotLT prank, either. He saw the beauty, not the steel beneath, because he never bothered to look in the first place.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah, because when they happened to be together, he was constantly by her side, trying to get to know her... ah, wait. He was nowhere about when she was defending Howland, and at the feast, he was too busy getting himself dead drunk. He didn't seem to miss her when she was pulling her KotLT prank, either. He saw the beauty, not the steel beneath, because he never bothered to look in the first place.

you are simply using your imagination here. How do you know he did not spend time with her? And is it proper for an unmarried noble lady to stay with her fiancee a lot at that time by the way? When she was defending Howland, nobody else there, not just Robert, also her three brothers. This whole plot is designed to let Lyanna the Mary Sue show off her greatness by herself so that Rhaegar can meet and fall for her. It is funny and ridiculous to use this to blame Robert not being with Lyanna. does your spouse/partner/BF constantly stay with you everywhere?