Barbrey Dustin

Jon was rightfully "terminated" by the Watch

233 posts in this topic

I feel like that the termination of Jon Snow by Bowen Marsh was appropriate.  The Lord Commander served for life so the only way to remove a crazy leader like Jon from power is to kill him.  That is their way of firing an unfit, incompetent,  treasonous commander.  It's been said before but I will repeat it here.  

Ramsay Bolton gave Jon the Pink Letter.  Bowen Marsh gave Jon the Pink Slip.  

  1. Jon was already a known deserter.
  2. He started making foolish decisions near the end.  The Hardhome mission was dumb and only wastes resources.
  3. The execution of Janos Slynt became unjust when Jon spared Mance Rayder, a man who has committed more crimes against the Watch and against the kingdom than Slynt has done.  Mormont showed mercy to Jon for desertion.  Jon could have shown mercy to Janos Slynt's initial insubordination.
  4. Sending Mance and the spearwives to rescue his sister, or what he thought was his sister, is an attack on a noble house of the realm.  Jon's agents murdered Bolton servants while enjoying Bolton hospitality and shelter.  This is little different from what the crows did to Craster and his family.
  5. Jon's announced plans to attack the Boltons is the last straw for any honest man of the Watch.  It violated the oaths of the watch and Jon knew it.  Instead of helping unite the north, Jon's actions made unity less likely to happen.

To sum up, I support Bowen Marsh and his decision to end Jon's appointment.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was an act of desperation to stop his mad superior officer.  Unfortunately, impeachment procedures even if they had one in place would have been impossible because Jon got the wildings on his side. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

I feel like that the termination of Jon Snow by Bowen Marsh was appropriate.  The Lord Commander served for life so the only way to remove a crazy leader like Jon from power is to kill him.  That is their way of firing an unfit, incompetent,  treasonous commander.  It's been said before but I will repeat it here.  

Ramsay Bolton gave Jon the Pink Letter.  Bowen Marsh gave Jon the Pink Slip.  

  1. Jon was already a known deserter.
  2. He started making foolish decisions near the end.  The Hardhome mission was dumb and only wastes resources.
  3. The execution of Janos Slynt became unjust when Jon spared Mance Rayder, a man who has committed more crimes against the Watch and against the kingdom than Slynt has done.  Mormont showed mercy to Jon for desertion.  Jon could have shown mercy to Janos Slynt's initial insubordination.
  4. Sending Mance and the spearwives to rescue his sister, or what he thought was his sister, is an attack on a noble house of the realm.  Jon's agents murdered Bolton servants while enjoying Bolton hospitality and shelter.  This is little different from what the crows did to Craster and his family.
  5. Jon's announced plans to attack the Boltons is the last straw for any honest man of the Watch.  It violated the oaths of the watch and Jon knew it.  Instead of helping unite the north, Jon's actions made unity less likely to happen.

To sum up, I support Bowen Marsh and his decision to end Jon's appointment.  

So, what do you think Mormont would have done with the wildlings, Craster, Hardhome, the other brother's such as Marsh, Yarwyck, Slynt, and Thorne?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Are you referring to book 1? Bowen Marsh was almost certainly unaware of this so it didn't factor into his decision.

2) When I first read the book I agreed that Hardhome was a foolish decision. Since that time I have come to realise that if you want to assimilate the wildlings into the realm (and the realm really needs the wildlings) you need to win their trust. I also think I placed too much trust in Melisandre warning him it was foolish and everything was lost. There is no reason to believe Melisandre has not somehow got things wrong again. Overall Jon strengthened and increased the nightwatch resources dramatically during his short command.

3) Jon made the decision because Janos Slynt was going to destabilise the watch on an ongoing basis. Mance Rayder was not nor was Jon.

4) Yeah Jon was technically out of line in terms of the law here. And you know what? Sometimes the law is stupid. I support this action even though we know it wasn't Arya, to get Jeyne away from Ramsay the sadist is a perfectly noble goal.

5) You could make an argument that Ramsay in threatening the nightwatch made Jon obligated to defend the nightwatch, however I don't really buy that. I will go along with you that Jon broke his vows. However the second point you make in in point 5 is completely wrong, the North will never be united under the Boltons. The best thing for the realm in defence against the Others would be for Stark rule in the north.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, Jon's logic holds firm until point 5.

 1 A midnight ride by a young man, who is brought to his senses is hardly grounds for execution, given the whores in Moles Town. LC Mormont forgives Jon that before the ranging.

2 The Hardhome decision he defends to his council quite well. He is trying to deny the Others people to turn into a army.

3. Janos is not only refusing orders, he is inciting rebellion. Clearly a executable offence. And Jon does not initially 'spare' Mance at all, he argues for it, that he might use him in the wars to come, but kills 'him' (Rattleshirt) in the end.

4. You could argue that Mance and the spearwives are agents of Mel, not Jon, because Jon can take no action. And until the pink letter, Bown Marsh has no knowledge of Mance's survival.

5. Only here does Jon fully violate his oaths, preparing to lead a ranging south. But I suspect that there will not be a lot of love between Marsh and the wildlings, so he's probably setting himselfup fo more pain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

I feel like that the termination of Jon Snow by Bowen Marsh was appropriate.  The Lord Commander served for life so the only way to remove a crazy leader like Jon from power is to kill him.  That is their way of firing an unfit, incompetent,  treasonous commander.  It's been said before but I will repeat it here.  

No, it isn't the only way. But it's definitely a coward's way.

30 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

Ramsay Bolton gave Jon the Pink Letter.  Bowen Marsh gave Jon the Pink Slip.  

  1. Jon was already a known deserter.

Then why wasn't he beheaded or something? Desertion from the NW = capital punishment after all. 

30 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:
  1. He started making foolish decisions near the end.  The Hardhome mission was dumb and only wastes resources.

Foolish in your opinion. Others may have different views on the matter. For instance, I think his decisions were the right ones, including the rescue mission to Hardhome. What you call "dumb" and a "waste of resources" was the most humane decision he could have made. It wasn't an easy decision, and clearly one that displeased many. But he knows there are thousands of people there. To simply turn a blind eye and comfortably assume they're all as good as dead is, again, a coward's way of dealing with the situation. 

All this talk about Jon being a deserter, and an oath breaker yadda yadda yadda is kind of hilarious, tbh. Because the vows talk about protecting the realms of men, not "the blokes I like to hang out with". 

ADwD, Jon XI

“Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. “The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night’s Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath.”
“I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”
“They were. As the lord commander knows.”
“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?
Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.
Jon Snow turned away.”

 

30 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:
  1. The execution of Janos Slynt became unjust when Jon spared Mance Rayder, a man who has committed more crimes against the Watch and against the kingdom than Slynt has done.  Mormont showed mercy to Jon for desertion.  Jon could have shown mercy to Janos Slynt's initial insubordination.

Mance Rayder and the NW and the north in general were adversaries, for ages they have been on opposite sides, fighting and killing each other. But Mance is loyal to his people. Slynt is a despicable slime-ball who will switch alliances according to his own personal interests. On top of that, he's also a coward. Hmmm... a pattern is emerging here, methinks.

30 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:
  1. Sending Mance and the spearwives to rescue his sister, or what he thought was his sister, is an attack on a noble house of the realm.  Jon's agents murdered Bolton servants while enjoying Bolton hospitality and shelter.  This is little different from what the crows did to Craster and his family.

No, it isn't. Jon never sent Mance to Winterfell. 

30 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:
  1. Jon's announced plans to attack the Boltons is the last straw for any honest man of the Watch.  It violated the oaths of the watch and Jon knew it.  Instead of helping unite the north, Jon's actions made unity less likely to happen.

30 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

To sum up, I support Bowen Marsh and his decision to end Jon's appointment.  

Quote thingy went wonky there in the end... but I've got nothing more to say anyway. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

I feel like that the termination of Jon Snow by Bowen Marsh was appropriate.  The Lord Commander served for life so the only way to remove a crazy leader like Jon from power is to kill him.  That is their way of firing an unfit, incompetent,  treasonous commander.  It's been said before but I will repeat it here.  

Ramsay Bolton gave Jon the Pink Letter.  Bowen Marsh gave Jon the Pink Slip.  

  1. Jon was already a known deserter.

No he was not or he would have been beheaded. There is a group of four guys that are wanting to kill Jon for simply being a Stark that begins to grow back in ASOS, way before the brothers vote Jon in as LC.

Here we see that Aemon says Jon is innocent, and we also see the first time of many that Slynt sends Jon out to die... and it has nothing to do with anything that happens in ADWD:

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

"We're not sending you to talk with Mance Rayder," Ser Alliser said. "We're sending you to kill him."
The wind whistled through the bars, and Jon Snow shivered. His leg was throbbing, and his head. He was not fit to kill a kitten, yet here he was. The trap had teeth. With Maester Aemon insisting on Jon's innocence, Lord Janos had not dared to leave him in the ice to die. This was better. "Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe," Qhorin Halfhand had said in the Frostfangs. He must remember that. Whether he slew Mance or only tried and failed, the free folk would kill him. Even desertion was impossible, if he'd been so inclined; to Mance he was a proven liar and betrayer.
Quote

 

  1. He started making foolish decisions near the end.  The Hardhome mission was dumb and only wastes resources.

No, it was the duty of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch to protect the realms of men, and that includes the free folk... and we learn this way back in the early books when Mormont tells this to Samwell, and Mormont even offered to take Craster south of the wall to help keep him safe... and yet, Mormont was never considered a traitor or deserter, or any other derogatory name.

Quote
  1. The execution of Janos Slynt became unjust when Jon spared Mance Rayder, a man who has committed more crimes against the Watch and against the kingdom than Slynt has done.  Mormont showed mercy to Jon for desertion.  Jon could have shown mercy to Janos Slynt's initial insubordination.

Nope, not correct. Slynt and his cronies had been conspiring to kill Jon since ASOS, as mentioned above. Slynt has then gone on to try to have Jon killed a few times, and he is repeatedly insubordinate to his now Lord Commander several times. Jon was firm in his decision and followed the ways of the north.
That block was fetched mighty quick and eagerly, I might add.

Quote
  1. Sending Mance and the spearwives to rescue his sister, or what he thought was his sister, is an attack on a noble house of the realm.  Jon's agents murdered Bolton servants while enjoying Bolton hospitality and shelter.  This is little different from what the crows did to Craster and his family.

Jon did not send Mance and the spearwives. Melisandre did, most likely with Stannis' knowing, and Jon could not interfere with the quarrels of southron politics because that is not the job of the LC of the NW. Also, Melisandre sent Mance to Long Lake... not Winterfell. Mance went to Winterfell on his own mission.

Also, Lord Manderly provided all of the food at Winterfell so that he (and now Mance and spearwives) never broke any guest rights. Also, the Boltons are knowingly, and rather openly, committing fraud at Winterfell by occupying it and marrying a fake Arya. Everyone knows she is a fake, Roose, Ramsay, Reek, Barbrey Dustin, the other lords, Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, and Littlefinger. Lady Dustin even warns Theon on the way to Winterfell that if Jeyne is going to pass for Arya, she better start acting the part.

The situation at Craster's does not even compare to this arc.

Quote

 

  1. Jon's announced plans to attack the Boltons is the last straw for any honest man of the Watch.  It violated the oaths of the watch and Jon knew it.  Instead of helping unite the north, Jon's actions made unity less likely to happen.

To sum up, I support Bowen Marsh and his decision to end Jon's appointment.  

Ramsay threatened the Watch saying he will kill their LC. Ramsay would come for them. The Watch has every right to defend itself against threats, it is kinda what they do, just the threats are ususally from the other side of the wall. Also, Jon does not have any of the people that the Pink Letter requested, so he can't send them, and therefore Ramsay would come after Jon's "heart".

  • Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

What and who violated the oaths watch was the treasonous brother's who were working with Tywin and King's Landing and trying to rig the election and have Jon killed (even before he is a LC). I am pretty sure killing your brother is not allowed by NW code.

  • "Your duty is here now," the Lord Commander reminded him. "Your old life ended when you took the black." His bird made a raucous echo. "Black." Mormont took no notice. "Whatever they do in King's Landing is none of our concern." When Jon did not answer, the old man finished his wine and said, "You're free to go. I'll have no further need of you today. On the morrow you can help me write that letter."
  • "Sire," said Bowen Marsh in a defensive tone, "no one has achieved two-thirds of the vote yet. It has only been ten days."
    "Nine days too long. I have captives to dispose of, a realm to order, a war to fight. Choices must be made, decisions that involve the Wall and the Night's Watch. By rights your Lord Commander should have a voice in those decisions."
    "He should, yes," said Janos Slynt. "But it must be said. We brothers are only simple soldiers. Soldiers, yes! And Your Grace will know that soldiers are most comfortable taking orders. They would benefit from your royal guidance, it seems to me. For the good of the realm. To help them choose wisely." <<<--- notice here that the decision for what happens in the Watch is up to the Watch (even though Stannis is being impatient). But Slynt can't handle that idea. Slynt needs to be a follower, he asks for someone to do the thinking for him, and Slynt has forgotten that his vows say "realms of men," and not just, "the realm in which he personally cares about."
And just a reminder, the oldest part of the wall, the part that is deep down low close to the foundation, and rooted symbolically even deeper, the Black Gate, opens to a brother that says what is most likely the real version of the NW vows. This is all that is required:
  • They were white too, and blind. "Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who."
    "I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."
    "Then pass," the door said.
 The wall is going to fall because the NW brothers did not stand strong thanks to Marsh and friends. However, chances are that Melisandre also had her hands in this as well.
Edited by The Fattest Leech
Clarified

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bowen Marsh was in a similar situation as Jaime Lannister right before he took down Aerys.  They both had leaders who lost their minds and was about to do something very wrong.  They had no choice but to take their leaders down.   Bowen Marsh was right to do what he did because there was nothing in place in the way of policy to remove a lord commander.  Jon was worst than the Nights' King.  At least NK didn't start a fight with a noble house and he wasn't about to attack people south of the wall. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Take Me 2 Your Leader said:

Bowen Marsh was in a similar situation as Jaime Lannister right before he took down Aerys.  They both had leaders who lost their minds and was about to do something very wrong.  They had no choice but to take their leaders down.   Bowen Marsh was right to do what he did because there was nothing in place in the way of policy to remove a lord commander.  Jon was worst than the Nights' King.  At least NK didn't start a fight with a noble house and he wasn't about to attack people south of the wall. 

Really? Because conspiring with the Others seems to me that he was well on his way to bending to their goal. That goal is the destruction of all life. He was such a threat that noble houses from south of the Wall put aside their prejudices and allied with the Free Folk to end him. Hmmmm, people from south of the wall allying with the Free Folk to terminate an existential threat, sounds familiar doesn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

Really? Because conspiring with the Others seems to me that he was well on his way to bending to their goal. That goal is the destruction of all life. He was such a threat that noble houses from south of the Wall put aside their prejudices and allied with the Free Folk to end him. Hmmmm, people from south of the wall allying with the Free Folk to terminate an existential threat, sounds familiar doesn't it?

Well said. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Hardhome thing is a decision between the devil and the deep blue sea. Jon is right that the Others would inevitably turn the wildlings into wights and thus increase their strength. But there is no guarantee that the men he intended to deploy to their rescue would even get to Hardhome alive. It is not that unlikely that they, too, would arrive there as wights and help the Others kill the remaining wildlings there.

In addition, even saving as many wildlings as they could would still play into the Others' hands because the Watch doesn't have enough resources to feed the wildlings that are already there, and certainly not thousands or tens of thousands more. It would weaken the Watch and the entire North.

While the Wall still stands - and the people at the Wall had no good reason to assume the Others have the means to actually destroy it - Marsh and Selyse are actually right. Weakening their position at the Wall by sending out a lot of men on a relief effort is going to leave them vulnerable to a sudden attack from the Others. That could very well be what they are counting upon.

Melisandre's vision very much implies that the wildlings at Hardhome are all doomed.

Sending the ships was technically a good idea but even they and the men aboard might all be lost.

15 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

Really? Because conspiring with the Others seems to me that he was well on his way to bending to their goal. That goal is the destruction of all life. He was such a threat that noble houses from south of the Wall put aside their prejudices and allied with the Free Folk to end him. Hmmmm, people from south of the wall allying with the Free Folk to terminate an existential threat, sounds familiar doesn't it?

We don't know enough about the Night's King to make that conclusion. Craster worships and sacrifices to the Others, too, yet he doesn't attack the lands south of the Wall or anyone outside his domains, or does he? He is officially a friend of the Watch.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No he was not or he would have been beheaded. There is a group of four guys that are wanting to kill Jon for simply being a Stark that begins to grow back in ASOS, way before the brothers vote Jon in as LC.

Is that wrong? Jon tells them a pretty tale about Qhorin Halfhand's last order, etc. but there is no way to verify this. Maester Aemon and others believe Jon's pretty tale. Thorne and Slynt do not. They don't have to. For all they know Jon just made that story up. He could have defected honestly and then just decided to rejoin the Watch after he concluded that this was the better way to save his neck.

And there is only one punishment for desertion. Death. Lord Eddard Stark executes a poor man who was mad with fear for 'desertion' just as Arya Stark kills a poor singer for a similar crime. If they deserved death so could Jon. And he did break his vow with Ygritte. She wasn't a whore she was his wildling lover. An enemy.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No, it was the duty of the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch to protect the realms of men, and that includes the free folk... and we learn this way back in the early books when Mormont tells this to Samwell, and Mormont even offered to take Craster south of the wall to help keep him safe... and yet, Mormont was never considered a traitor or deserter, or any other derogatory name.

It is not the duty of the Lord Commander to send hundreds or thousands of men to their certain death to save people that are only going to be additional mouths in winter. Men go hunting in a cruel winter in the North. He could just as well have declared the people at Hardhome 'hunters' in the same sense. They chose to go there.

If Jon returns from the dead and remains in a leadership position he will have to decide who is going to live and die in winter on a regular basis. He can't give food to everyone, especially not the old, the sick, and the weak. He is going to need strong fighters if he is going to face the wights and the Others in battle.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Nope, not correct. Slynt and his cronies had been conspiring to kill Jon since ASOS, as mentioned above. Slynt has then gone on to try to have Jon killed a few times, and he is repeatedly insubordinate to his now Lord Commander several times. Jon was firm in his decision and followed the ways of the north.
That block was fetched mighty quick and eagerly, I might add.

Slynt definitely committed a lesser crime in comparison to Mance Rayder and Jon himself. Jon did break his vow. Slynt just refused an order. Jon did that, too. He even attacked a superior officer in AGoT, something Mormont could also have taken his head for. And might have, had Jon not bought back his life by killing the wight and saving the Old Bear.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon did not send Mance and the spearwives. Melisandre did, most likely with Stannis' knowing, and Jon could not interfere with the quarrels of southron politics because that is not the job of the LC of the NW. Also, Melisandre sent Mance to Long Lake... not Winterfell. Mance went to Winterfell on his own mission.

Jon was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at this point. It was his right and duty to punish Mance Rayder for his treason. He should have taken his head as soon as he learned that Rattleshirt wasn't Rattleshirt.

Melisandre had no right to send Mance anywhere without Jon's permission and she certainly asked for it by revealing Mance to Jon. She made him her accomplice in all that. There is also no reason to believe Mance was only supposed to go to Long Lake. They do know that 'Arya' is at Winterfell, and if they have no news that she has fled they can't just wait for her at Long Lake especially if they assume this is a vision of the future.

But even if you are wrong - Jon can't wiggle out of that. Even if he didn't know anything about Mance's plan he is responsible for his actions. This is a feudal setting where lords and kings are responsible for the actions of their retainers and servants. And Mance apparently made it clear to Ramsay that he was acting in Jon's name. Else there wouldn't have been a Pink Letter. Instead Ramsay would have written to and threatened Melisandre of Asshai.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, Lord Manderly provided all of the food at Winterfell so that he (and now Mance and spearwives) never broke any guest rights. Also, the Boltons are knowingly, and rather openly, committing fraud at Winterfell by occupying it and marrying a fake Arya. Everyone knows she is a fake, Roose, Ramsay, Reek, Barbrey Dustin, the other lords, Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, and Littlefinger. Lady Dustin even warns Theon on the way to Winterfell that if Jeyne is going to pass for Arya, she better start acting the part.

Not all of them know the truth about Arya. Some suspect it, but very few people actually know.

Nobody in Winterfell right now would doubt that the castle belongs to Roose and Ramsay now, and that everybody is there at the pleasure of the Warden of the North. They are all his guests, not Lord Manderly's.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ramsay threatened the Watch saying he will kill their LC. Ramsay would come for them. The Watch has every right to defend itself against threats, it is kinda what they do, just the threats are ususally from the other side of the wall. Also, Jon does not have any of the people that the Pink Letter requested, so he can't send them, and therefore Ramsay would come after Jon's "heart".

According to Benjen Stark the Watch has no right to defend or attack any lords or people of the Seven Kingdoms. That's why they are not allowed to build walls to defend themselves against the people south of the Wall.

Jon Snow has no right to defend himself against Ramsay Bolton even if he Ramsay was in the wrong (which he isn't in this case). Jon throw the first stone and now he has to pay for it.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

What and who violated the oaths watch was the treasonous brother's who were working with Tywin and King's Landing and trying to rig the election and have Jon killed (even before he is a LC). I am pretty sure killing your brother is not allowed by NW code.

Jon Snow was seen as a turncloak by those men at this point. A turncloak isn't your brother. And it is quite clear that Qhorin Halfhand expected Jon to die for his vow, too. Killing Mance was something Slynt/Thorne and the Halfhand could have demanded of him. Qhorin expected Jon to find out what he could and then tell his brothers and pay the price for his (apparent) betrayal. Just as he had Jon to kill himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

@Lord Varys you are a known to be heavily biased to one side of the story only, and even going so far as being bigoted. So unless you stop calling other posters stupid, and you stop conveniently flip flopping when things in the story can be proven or not, and you start to use actual book or author quotes to back up your story, and you stop trying to disguise your biased ways as fact (all things many have asked of you before), then please don't bother to quote me or tag me in the future because I don't have time or a care to respond to posters like this anymore. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

I feel like that the termination of Jon Snow by Bowen Marsh was appropriate.  The Lord Commander served for life so the only way to remove a crazy leader like Jon from power is to kill him.  That is their way of firing an unfit, incompetent,  treasonous commander.  It's been said before but I will repeat it here.  

Ramsay Bolton gave Jon the Pink Letter.  Bowen Marsh gave Jon the Pink Slip.  

  1. Jon was already a known deserter.
  2. He started making foolish decisions near the end.  The Hardhome mission was dumb and only wastes resources.
  3. The execution of Janos Slynt became unjust when Jon spared Mance Rayder, a man who has committed more crimes against the Watch and against the kingdom than Slynt has done.  Mormont showed mercy to Jon for desertion.  Jon could have shown mercy to Janos Slynt's initial insubordination.
  4. Sending Mance and the spearwives to rescue his sister, or what he thought was his sister, is an attack on a noble house of the realm.  Jon's agents murdered Bolton servants while enjoying Bolton hospitality and shelter.  This is little different from what the crows did to Craster and his family.
  5. Jon's announced plans to attack the Boltons is the last straw for any honest man of the Watch.  It violated the oaths of the watch and Jon knew it.  Instead of helping unite the north, Jon's actions made unity less likely to happen.

To sum up, I support Bowen Marsh and his decision to end Jon's appointment.  

So if you look at the situation from the angle of the night watch and it's mission then i think it was a really bad choice to kill Jon Snow because it will lead to the destruction of the nights watch at the hands of the wildlings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People are so edgy now days. Jon is one of the only people that knows about the others and tries to stop them and he is competent and still people want him dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty sure the equivalent of "public opinion" in-universe is not going to see it that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

So if you look at the situation from the angle of the night watch and it's mission then i think it was a really bad choice to kill Jon Snow because it will lead to the destruction of the nights watch at the hands of the wildlings.

But the NW will be saved by the wildlings! That's right, they're the purest FM blood we have, they will take over CB and bring the Watch much closer to its true purpose, not to mention closer to its original formation. They just have to weed out the cowards, the short-sighted, the prejudiced, etc. ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

I feel like that the termination of Jon Snow by Bowen Marsh was appropriate.  The Lord Commander served for life so the only way to remove a crazy leader like Jon from power is to kill him.  That is their way of firing an unfit, incompetent,  treasonous commander.  It's been said before but I will repeat it here.  

Ramsay Bolton gave Jon the Pink Letter.  Bowen Marsh gave Jon the Pink Slip.  

  1. Jon was already a known deserter.
  2. He started making foolish decisions near the end.  The Hardhome mission was dumb and only wastes resources.
  3. The execution of Janos Slynt became unjust when Jon spared Mance Rayder, a man who has committed more crimes against the Watch and against the kingdom than Slynt has done.  Mormont showed mercy to Jon for desertion.  Jon could have shown mercy to Janos Slynt's initial insubordination.
  4. Sending Mance and the spearwives to rescue his sister, or what he thought was his sister, is an attack on a noble house of the realm.  Jon's agents murdered Bolton servants while enjoying Bolton hospitality and shelter.  This is little different from what the crows did to Craster and his family.
  5. Jon's announced plans to attack the Boltons is the last straw for any honest man of the Watch.  It violated the oaths of the watch and Jon knew it.  Instead of helping unite the north, Jon's actions made unity less likely to happen.

To sum up, I support Bowen Marsh and his decision to end Jon's appointment.  

:agree:

 

You're fired, Jon Snow!

Only if it were that easy.

One of the issues brought up in the text has to do with the lack of a means to remove an authority figure from power.  It didn't help that Jon manipulated the situation and surrounded himself with wildling bodyguards after he made that announcement in the shield hall.  The way I see it, Jon was completely in the wrong.  He was unfit for command and he was about to make the situation worse.  He deserved to get fired from his job but Bowen couldn't very well say, "You're fired, Jon Snow.  Pack your bags and leave!"  

Bowen, in my opinion, had two options.   (a) He could do what he did and kill Jon.  The second option is more risky.  (b) Bowen could let Jon and his raiding party leave the wall.  Send a warning to the Boltons that there's one angry bastard and a pack of wildling barbarians on the way to attack.  On that same message, condemn Jon's actions and vow that the NW would not take sides.  

Ramsay doesn't really want to march out into the snows and attack Castle Black.  That would be foolish under the prevailing weather conditions.  Jon should have known that.  What Jon really wanted to do was rescue fArya and he was willing to throw away everything to do that.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

So if you look at the situation from the angle of the night watch and it's mission then i think it was a really bad choice to kill Jon Snow because it will lead to the destruction of the nights watch at the hands of the wildlings.

It was actually Jon Snow who made the bad decision to start a fight with the Boltons over his sister.  Or the girl he thought was his sister.  Jon's behavior was the one which will lead to the destruction of the watch.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It was actually Jon Snow who made the bad decision to start a fight with the Boltons over his sister.  Or the girl he thought was his sister.  Jon's behavior was the one which will lead to the destruction of the watch.  

How so when "Arya" was thought to be at Long Lake, not at Winterfell, and Ramsay threatened the Watch first? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

How so when "Arya" was thought to be at Long Lake, not at Winterfell, and Ramsay threatened the Watch first? 

Let me ask you this.  Mance Rayder asked for women to accompany him when Jon sent him on the mission.  Jon even sent his own man, a man of the Watch, to find the girls from Mole's Town and bring them to Mance.  They were planning to infiltrate Winterfell.  Was Jon planning to rescue Arya and soon after return her to Ramsay?  I don't think so.  Jon was willing to do what it takes to get Arya away from the Boltons even if it meant sacrificing the security of the wall.  

Why do you think Ramsay threatened the lord commander?  Because that same lord commander sent his operatives inside Winterfell, murdered Bolton servants, and took away a Bolton bride.  That is an act of war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now