Black Crow

Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

451 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That could be the explanation, it's just such an odd way to express it.  Now you could chalk it up to Aemon's current mental/physical state at the time.  But another explanation is that he is directly linking TPTWP prophecy to the genetics of dragons.  When he says the "sphinx is the riddle not the riddler", this equally odd statement could also be explained for the same reason.  There are Valyrian sphinxes at the Citadel.  These are statues with the body of a dragon and the head of a human.  (We see them again on Illyrio and Tyrion's ride to the Rhoyne).  The riddle of TPTWP prophecy is how do we get a human consciousness into the body of a dragon.

I like the way you've phrased this. The Targaryens in their quest to hatch dragon eggs have been looking for answers in some ancient prophetic writing. They know their ancestors were able to do it in the past, but maybe they never fully understood how it happened and the times that it worked were happy experiments/accidents. So basically this ancient prophecy uses a word to describe a human that has the ability to hatch and bond with a dragon. Such a person would then become a dragon prince or dragon princess or dragon lord. The word would be the equivalent of skinchanger or warg.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

This might have something to do with Valyrian worship of dragon gods and the ability to warg dragons in the Targaryen bloodline.  I maintain that R'hllor is such a god with the distinction that the soul of the dragon is a human/dragon second life soul translation.  Melisandre maintains that R'hllor exists in the real world and is male.  I suspect that the great red temple is actually a dragon pit and Dany's wake the dragon dream where she is transformed into a dragon and flies; warging or bonding with R'hllor rather than Drogon.  

R'hllor... R'haegar, R'haella, R'haenys...  I think you pointed this nomenclature at one time.  Something (or someone) else lost in translation?  LOL

I haven't seen this before, but I like it!

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I think you are missing concept big time; trying to make things line up to every detail.They don't have to be nor should they be given that the different factions has areas of uniqueness based on what magic they are adept at.But the underlining theme and concept is the same which is the point.

Some of the things you are pointing out i didn't even mention as proof or point of proof so i am not sure why they were brought up.E.g.

????? Not a point but you are still incorrect about this.The Faceless man is a religion because well its self explanatory but ok

1.They have a god The many faced god

2.They have a central place of worship The House of Black and White.

3. They have worshipers who bring their petitions before him

4.They have disciples who carryout what they believe their god's purpose.

that the prayers in the form of money is received doesn't make them any less a religion.Even some of our own religions receive payment for prayers.

Dude why are you hung up on if one sends his spirit into another or not? They both wear the forms of others.It doesn't matter HOW they perform it.Force or consensual.It matters that they do.

If i use blood magic to skinchange and you use spirit mingling to accomplish wearing another form it just means we used different means to accomplish the same thing.

Again you are missing the nuanced and overt.It is about fluid identity.Not having a fixed one,but one that is ever changing for the purpose of subterfuge and concealment.

The greenseers as skinchangers can become anything and anyone.Their purpose is to look,to spy to dabble without anyone being the wiser on who they were.

The Faceless man the same thing they can be anyone for the purpose of keeping themselves hidden.It makes for a good assassin.You do see the purpose for that do you? Why you would kill someone with another's face? 

In being the No-ones can be anyone because their identity is not limited to one form.

 

That was a typo from me...It was Bran.If you read to quotes it would have been plainly obvious that 'hey she meant Bran' but i will put it for you.

 

 

 

 

Victarian doesn't know it yet but he's dead.He was just changed .Plus him having his own thoughts doesn't exclude him.You heard of Coldhand's. Or Beric Dondarrion right?

Really? He would be aware of that he's never had an issue knowing if its Ghost.

Again for what purpose was this brought up anyway?

Or genetics as we have no indication that warging the wolves gave the Stark bunch super human strength. You say Targ i say Baratheon as Targs aren't known for their strength.

I agree with this. The Catholic church in particular will pray for money. Got a dead relative in purgatory? Pay such and such an amount and he/she will be delivered into heaven!

2 hours ago, divica said:

She has a connection, but a dog owner also has a conection to the dog. There isn t evidence that they have a mental connection and if we take victarion horn into consideration we have evidence that probably the targs don t connect in that way naturally with the dragons.

 

And ghost warging jon? I prefer the idea he can siphon  ghost strenght and with it comes some of the wolf mentality or it is a targ thing because they think of themselves as dragons and the phrase "wake the dragon" can be and indication they used to have a berserk stage when they behave like "dragons" (augmentation of phisical abilities and rage). However you should take into acount that he is only oblivious to what is happening in 1 ocasion and he was hit in the head and thinking about the past... Besides it is unlickly that he wouldn t feel ghost entering him, from what we know the target always knows when he is being warged.

The connection between human and host animal leaves a remnant inside each other, so a piece of Jon is left in Ghost and a piece of Ghost is left in Jon, even when not actively skinchanging. This is how they sense what the other is feeling or doing, but physical distance from each other can affect the strength of the feeling. So I disagree with BC that Ghost is actively skinchanging Jon. It's just that Jon takes on the personality traits of Ghost and it affects how he acts.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

No.

Touching on something you've said earlier... dragons are not domesticated animals and neither are direwolves.  They are dangerous and wild.  Dragons are not trained with food reward, but controlled with whips like lions. They are also controlled to some extent through the warg/animal bond, a shared soul in other words.  Varamyr is a good example of how much control a warg has over his animals.  Some are easier to control than others and if the warg bond is broken, they revert to their natural state. 

It's entirely possible that a dragon can bond with a specific valyrian bloodline in the same way that the Starks have a history with direwolves.   What I'm saying is that it's possible and likely that Dany and others of the old valyrian bloodline are able to bond, warg their dragons, share a soul with them and have a second life in the body of their dragon.  Although it would be rare as is the case with skinchangers, wargs and greenseers.

Dragons and direwolves don't transform into humans; but the human soul can be contained within the body of their bonded dragon or direwolf.  I think this is the riddle of the sphinx, the dragon with a human head in other words.  the dragon that has a human consciousness; a dragon god if you like.

I don t think you can say that targs can warg dragons and then acknowlegde that in the past they needed whips, horns and whatever to control their dragons. You have one or the other... I mean, wargs create a permanent connection between themselves and other creatures. So by whipping  a creature they would be whipping themselves... the kind of harsh treatment they used to control dragons doesn t make sense if you are part of the said dragons!

 

In regards to danny, she nevers sees through drogons eyes, never shares his senses, I am not sure if she has a sense of his location (read the books too long ago)... I don t think there is any evidence of forming any magical bond between danny and her dragons. What we have are animals raised by danny that see her as their mother. This can be due to her blood that might have similarities to that of a dragon's but a dog or a lion can also be trained to obey someone... you just have to go to a circus. So while targs might have several types of magic, due to the histories about ancient valyria warging shouldn t be one of them!

 

On the other hand, if we imagine a valyrian tring to conquer westeros and ordering his dragon to burn a warg, once the warg is dead he can obviously try to warg the dragon.

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4 hours ago, divica said:
Spoiler

Aren t you overcomplicating with the dragons that transform into humans?

We know that targs consider themselves dragons, so when talking about the prince that was promised it might have just said in the text that a dragon will will be born that... and afterwards used the pronoun he  for "and he will do something". So when translating people refer to tptwp as a male. At the limit, as tptwp is suposed to be a warrior people always thought he would be a man even if the profecy uses the word dragon no one ever thought abut it...

So whoever wrote the profecy might just have wanted to say that the ptwp would be a targ...

That sounds to me like a likely explanation.

 

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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t think you can say that targs can warg dragons and then acknowlegde that in the past they needed whips, horns and whatever to control their dragons.

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X

She would sooner have returned to Meereen on dragon's wings, to be sure. But that was a desire Drogon did not seem to share.

The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns. Daenerys made do with a word and a whip. Mounted on the dragon's back, she oft felt as if she were learning to ride all over again. When she whipped her silver mare on her right flank the mare went left, for a horse's first instinct is to flee from danger. When she laid the whip across Drogon's right side he veered right, for a dragon's first instinct is always to attack. Sometimes it did not seem to matter where she struck him, though; sometimes he went where he would and took her with him. Neither whip nor words could turn Drogon if he did not wish to be turned. The whip annoyed him more than it hurt him, she had come to see; his scales had grown harder than horn.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

"Just put it on." The prince was in no mood for japes.

 

The bundle contained a whip as well—a nasty piece of old leather with a handle of brass and bone, stout enough to peel the hide off an ox. "What's that for?" Arch asked.

 

"Daenerys used a whip to cow the black beast." Quentyn coiled the whip and hung it from his belt. "Arch, bring your hammer as well. We may have need of it."

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

Quentyn wrenched free of Gerris's grip. "Viserion," he called. The white one is Viserion. For half a heartbeat he was afraid he'd gotten it wrong. "Viserion," he called again, fumbling for the whip hanging from his belt. She cowed the black one with a whip. I need to do the same.

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

The other Windblown were pulling back. This was more than even Pretty Meris had the stomach for. Viserion's horned head moved back and forth between them and his prey, but after a moment he forgot the sellswords and bent his neck to tear another mouthful from the dead man. A lower leg this time.

Quentyn let his whip uncoil. "Viserion," he called, louder this time. He could do this, he would do this, his father had sent him to the far ends of the earth for this, he would not fail him. "VISERION!" He snapped the whip in the air with a crack that echoed off the blackened walls.

 

Edited by LynnS

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17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think this is over complicating things a bit.  After all why would princes be confused for dragons in a translation.

Because prophecies are frequently full of nonliteral metaphors.

For instance, consider Jojen's prophecy from ACOK:

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The sea comes to Winterfell

Now imagine someone trying to translate this... into another language... much later, far away.

"This makes no sense," says Mr. Translator.  "Winterfell is hundreds of miles from the sea, right in the middle of the continent.  The sea could never go there."  

So Mr. Translator changes the language in his translation, based on the human behavior, to this:

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Sea raiders come to Winterfell

"That works," he tells himself, "because the Ironborn and the North were ancestral enemies.  They could actually do the thing in the prophecy -- go to Winterfell."

And Mr. Translator is not wrong; that's indeed what happened.  Even though the sea and sea raiders are not really the same words or concept at all.

In the same way, the original PtwP prophecy could have said dragon, and that could have been shifted to dragon prince in translation because of the human behavior (example: leading a great host in an endless winter) that simply doesn't work for a dragon.

But Aemon thinks the PtwP is Dany.  So he looks at the original language, in the original prophecy.  He sees it says dragon.  And he knows that Dany is just as much of a dragon as Rhaegar, Aegon, or any other Targ you care to name; dragons are not always male.  Ergo, Dany fits the true prophecy, and that's what matters to Aemon.

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Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think this is over complicating things a bit.  After all why would princes be confused for dragons in a translation.  I think the confusion he refers to is very simple.  They translated the prophecy from the original language to be the Prince that Was Promised.  Working on this idea, they were certain that a male had to be the one to fulfill the role.  Thus Aemon is kicking himself for ignoring the females that could have been eligible to fulfill this role.  

As for the original language, my initial thought was that it was Rhoynish, because their highest soveigrn was a prince, and it would make sense that they would be in need for a savior considering their losing battles with the Targaryens.  But it occurred to me that the "language" that would cause the most difficulty in translation would be the runes of the First Men.  

If the Prince that was Promised was supposed to be a dragon with a human consciousness (hence Aemon's strange segue to Septon Barthl's discussion of dragon gender) it might make sense that the First Men who were familiar with wargs and the transfer of consciousness would have  come up with this prophecy.

'The prince that was promised' is like an Old Norse poetic device called a 'kenning', an odd compound circumlocution reminiscent of those attributed to the COTF, who are referred to using a variety of vague circumlocutions inevitably introducing 'errors in the translation' -- e.g. 'those who sing the song of the earth' or 'the children of the forest', both denoting the same thing.  Perhaps the original language in which the prophecy was given was the True Tongue, and this being an oral rather than written tradition, would mean it was sung to someone, who then wrote it down in his own language.  Or, maybe it's the other way around -- the prophecy is recited to a singer in exchange for a song, for which we have the parallel in the text of the Ghost of High Heart (who is rumored to have COTF blood) and Tom Sevenstrings / Rhaegar.  I keep returning to that enigmatic reference to 'the manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here...,' which, if it's to be believed, suggests there have been some highly talented linguists in history (besides @Voice, of course... :kiss:)!  It would also make sense that a greenseer might have tapped into the future via the 'weirnet' and then reported the 'vision' to someone with an interest in recording it.  As far as your theory, Septon Barth certainly had an interest in the lore of the First Men, as evidenced by his banned treatise on the language of ravens -- 'the higher mystery taught to the First Men by the Children' -- researched with help of rare texts which he obtained from Castle Black.  These source texts are unlikely to have been written in Valyrian.

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Legend further holds that the greenseers could also delve into the past and see far into the future. But as all our learning has shown us, the higher mysteries that claim this power also claim that their visions of the things to come are unclear and often misleading—a useful thing to say when seeking to fool the unwary with fortune-telling. Though the children had arts of their own, the truth must always be separated from superstition, and knowledge must be tested and made sure. The higher mysteries, the arts of magic, were and are beyond the boundaries of our mortal ability to examine.

Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth's Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens and could make them repeat their words.

According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed, in degraded form, down to the maesters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens...but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.

Ravens are amongst the cleverest of birds, but they are no wiser than infant children, and considerably less capable of true speech, whatever Septon Barth might have believed. A few maesters, devoted to the link of Valyrian steel, have argued that Barth was correct, but not a one has been able to prove his claims regarding speech between men and ravens.

I like your idea of 'the prince that was promised' and the 'sphinx riddle-not-riddler' referring to the transfer of human consciousness into a dragon.  Are you arguing that this hasn't occurred yet, regardless of also theorizing that Drogo's and Rhaego's souls are both resident in Drogon?  Talking of riddles, the preservation of consciousness in fire, given that dragons are 'fire made flesh', is a paradox -- since fire consumes, which should be antithetical to preservation.  Based on the examples in the text of skinchangers being evicted from hosts which are on fire (e.g. the burning eagle of Orell, or the burning weirwoods), it shouldn't actually be possible for anyone to transfer their consciousness into a dragon and survive the process.  The only people we've witnessed being preserved instead of consumed by fire include Daenerys, Beric Dondarrion, and Catelyn/Stoneheart (am I forgetting anyone?).  Of these, Dany is the likeliest candidate for potentially achieving successful fusion of this kind with a dragon in future, given firstly, that she is the only one of the three who has been burned alive and survived  -- stepping into the funeral pyre being a metaphor for skinchanging a dragon; secondly, that her dragon dreams may be analogous to the wolf dreams calling a warg; and thirdly, that the sphinx which Tyrion sees symbolizes Dany (the missing mate that was carted off to Vaes Dothrak symbolizes Viserys, whom Drogo disparagingly dubbed 'Cart King' (Khal Rhaggat), hinting at this interpretation):

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon’s body and a woman’s face.
"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."

"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. "The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak."

That is an omen too, thought Tyrion, but not as hopeful.

Assuming 'solving the riddle of the sphinx' was Rhaegar's intention with the 'tower of joy', why would he have needed Lyanna's 'wolf blood', or her child's hybrid 'dragon-wolf blood' (assuming he's the father) to accomplish that end?  Perhaps skinchanging a dragon requires skinchanger blood.  Perhaps Targaryen blood on its own is not enough.  It may be sufficient to bond with a dragon, ride a dragon, but not skinchange a dragon!  Perhaps by sacrificing a wolf-dragon hybrid child, and therefore having 'stolen' or co-opted the wolf blood, the Targaryan father or mother of said child has a better chance of skinchanging the dragon somehow?

1 hour ago, divica said:

I don t think you can say that targs can warg dragons and then acknowlegde that in the past they needed whips, horns and whatever to control their dragons. You have one or the other...

Good point!  Whips and chains surely indicate inadequate telepathic control, LOL.

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In regards to danny, she nevers sees through drogons eyes, never shares his senses, I am not sure if she has a sense of his location (read the books too long ago)...

That's true.  Bran's experiences with Summer are more intimate and vivid.

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I don t think there is any evidence of forming any magical bond between danny and her dragons.

That might be a bit extreme.  There's evidence of some kind of magical bond at least between Dany and Drogon, or he wouldn't just arrive all 'deus-ex-machina' to rescue her whenever she's in trouble, or be amenable to her riding him (unlike the other two dragons with whom the bond seems weaker than with Drogon); and as LynnS has pointed out, there were binding spells involved historically.

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What we have are animals raised by danny that see her as their mother. This can be due to her blood that might have similarities to that of a dragon's but a dog or a lion can also be trained to obey someone... you just have to go to a circus. So while targs might have several types of magic, due to the histories about ancient valyria warging shouldn t be one of them!

Wonderful!  I think you may be right.  Perhaps that's why Rhaegar was after the unification of ice and fire -- by abducting/seducing Lyanna -- to perfect the diabolical 'dragon skinchanger' recipe he had in mind. 

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On the other hand, if we imagine a valyrian tring to conquer westeros and ordering his dragon to burn a warg, once the warg is dead he can obviously try to warg the dragon.

Can you explain further?  How does burning the warg help the Valyrian warg the dragon?

32 minutes ago, JNR said:

prophecies are frequently full of nonliteral metaphors.

Glad to hear it!  You are admitting the heresy of the validity and necessity of 'symbolic interpretation', yes...?!   

'Nonliteral metaphor' -- isn't that a tautology?  A metaphor is by definition a figure of speech, i.e. a non-literal literary device.  B)

32 minutes ago, JNR said:

And Mr. Translator is not wrong; that's indeed what happened.  Even though the sea and sea raiders are not really the same words or concept at all.

Here we agree on something, JNR :cheers: -- although, not to disappoint you, you may still disagree with my interpretation of the 'sea' as a metaphor for 'greenseeing' itself!

Edited by ravenous reader

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26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

 

Those quotes actually point that as danny isn t magically conected with the dragons she has to use words and whips and implie that if she were she wouldn t need those things. Then the same thing for quentin...

I can see why you could consider binding spells as a form of warging though I don t think they are the same thing. The rest of the quotes just point out that danny is training her dragon in the absence of a mental connection.

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, divica said:

Those quotes actually point that as danny isn t magically conected with the dragons she has to use words and whips and implie that if she were she wouldn t need those things. Then the same thing for quentin...

I can see why you could consider binding spells as a form of warging though I don t think they are the same thing. The rest of the quotes just point out that danny is training her dragon in the absence of a mental connection.

Binding spells are not a form of skinchanging; however, they are a form of magic, as any spells are.  When Sam says the words 'I am the sword...' etc., that's a spell which magically opens (or 'unbinds' if you like) the 'Black Gate.'  Words have power, including magical power. I've written some key observations on that topic here, summarizing my 'killing word' thread , which you might enjoy reading, with my compliments :).  Skinchanging is closer to telepathy; and this involves a 'silent shout', which perhaps the dragonbinder horn is mimicking/approximating (like a 'dog whistle').

Although she lacks the skinchanging capacity of someone such as Jon or Bran, Dany definitely has a 'mental connection' to Drogon, though.  That much is undeniable.

Edited by ravenous reader

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21 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Good point!  Whips and chains surely indicate inadequate telepathic control, LOL.

That's true.  Bran's experiences with Summer are more intimate and vivid.

That might be a bit extreme.  There's evidence of some kind of magical bond at least between Dany and Drogon, or he wouldn't just arrive all 'deus-ex-machina' to rescue her whenever she's in trouble, or be amenable to her riding him (unlike the other two dragons with whom the bond seems weaker than with Drogon); and as LynnS has pointed out, there were binding spells involved historically.

Wonderful!  I think you may be right.  Perhaps that's why Rhaegar was after the unification of ice and fire -- by abducting/seducing Lyanna -- to perfect the diabolical 'dragon skinchanger' recipe he had in mind. 

Can you explain further?  How does burning the warg help the Valyrian warg the dragon?

Glad to hear it!  You are admitting the heresy of the validity and necessity of 'symbolic interpretation', yes...?!   

'Nonliteral metaphor' -- isn't that a tautology?  A metaphor is by definition a figure of speech, i.e. a non-literal literary device.  B)

Here we agree on something, JNR :cheers: -- although, not to disappoint you, you may still disagree with my interpretation of the 'sea' as a metaphor for 'greenseeing' itself!

If you leave part of your self in na animal why would you mistreat it? you will feel what the animal feels...

And certainly you won t use violence with a creature you are mentally bonded.

 

Just like some animals can feel fear and things like that maybe dragons can feel the emotions of people they are close to. Not in a magical way, but as in a phisical ability. So when danny feels fear  if drogon is around he knows it and appears. And most of what you said can be explained by drogon liking danny more than the other dragons do. just like animals don t all have the same feelings for their masters.

 

I also quite like the idea of rhaegar wanting to make a super targarien with lyanna...

 

In that part I wa also stating that any war that dies near a dragon will try to pocess him.

 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, divica said:

In that part I was also stating that any warg that dies near a dragon will try to possess him.

Above, I explained the paradox involved in trying to skinchange 'fire made flesh.'  It shouldn't be possible, based on the other examples we've been given in the text, most prominently when Melisandre burns Orell's eagle, causing excruciating pain for the skinchanger, so unbearable that he is evicted from the host body and almost driven mad for a while.  Similarly, this is the reason the greenseers/COTF/singers resent the trees being burnt, because it evicts them from their residence in the weirwoods, which can be thought of as the skinchangers' second 'tree' skin, as it were.

The only kind of 'warg' who would potentially be able to skinchange a dragon and survive the encounter would be a part Targaryen warg -- i.e. someone like Jon or Bloodraven.  But, even then, surviving a live burning is by no means guaranteed, regardless of genetic disposition, as evidenced by Viserys's fate with the molten gold crown, or Jon's burned hand.  Perhaps Rhaegar was hoping for a skinchanger-dragon hybrid child who would be forced to enter a dragon by ritual sacrifice, without getting burned in the process, either in the dragon or in the funeral pyre (euphemistically named 'tower of joy'...understandably, since Targaryens/dragons are known to get ecstatically 'aroused by a burning'), after which he (Rhaegar) might 'piggy-back' into the dragon, tagging along on the basis of the Targaryen blood complement shared with his child, and anchored by the Stark complement, in a process akin to what @chrisdaw has suggested here .  Recall that Varamyr in his Prologue refers to the wolf as his spiritual anchor, without whom he would remain disembodied, dispersed and suspended in the 'ether':

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ADWD -- Prologue

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

Besides skinchanging a 'fire dragon', the possibility might also exist of skinchanging an 'ice dragon'.  Given that 'ice preserves' rather than consumes the soul, this might be an easier proposition for someone such as Bran.

Edited by ravenous reader

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5 hours ago, divica said:

If Victarion is dead there should be something in the text about him not breathing or being cold as it happens whith cold hands.

Victarion has been raised by fire and is literally hot - skin like crackling, smoking with fire within and totally oblivious to it.

The other giveaway is that he loses the POV when Moqorro does the business. We don't get that anywhere else

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46 minutes ago, divica said:

Those quotes actually point that as danny isn t magically conected with the dragons she has to use words and whips and implie that if she were she wouldn t need those things. Then the same thing for quentin...

I can see why you could consider binding spells as a form of warging though I don t think they are the same thing. The rest of the quotes just point out that danny is training her dragon in the absence of a mental connection.

Not quite. There are the dragon dreams before the hatching, and while Danaerys the Draginlord starts off with whips and chains that's a matter of conditioning because that's how you train and control animals, but latterly she realises that its wrong and she doesn't need them

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

 Of these, Dany is the likeliest candidate for potentially achieving successful fusion of this kind with a dragon in future, given firstly, that she is the only one of the three who has been burned alive and survived  -- stepping into the funeral pyre being a metaphor for skinchanging a dragon; secondly, that her dragon dreams may be analogous to the wolf dreams calling a warg; and thirdly, that the sphinx which Tyrion sees symbolizes Dany (the missing mate that was carted off to Vaes Dothrak symbolizes Viserys, whom Drogo disparagingly dubbed 'Cart King' (Khal Rhaggat), hinting at this interpretation):

I think Dany has already made that bond; something she experiences in her wake the dragon dreams.  Whether this is with Drogon or R'hllor is up for grabs. although I think her temporary immunity from fire comes from the dragon god:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. "Khaleesi," Jhiqui said, "what is wrong? Are you sick?"

 

Unlike Orel, she feels no pain.

And this dream where Dany is transformed into the dragon or wargs a dragon, specifically the last dragon.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

 

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

 

"… the dragon …"

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Victarion has been raised by fire and is literally hot - skin like crackling, smoking with fire within and totally oblivious to it.

The other giveaway is that he loses the POV when Moqorro does the business. We don't get that anywhere else

Hi BC.  :)  I think I missed that in the text!  I was under the impression that Victarion had his hand treated by fire, not that he had died.  Could you please provide me a link to the quote you have in mind?

Do you think Moqorro is also an 'undead' fire-transformed being?

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In a sea fight off the Shields Victarion gets a relatively minor cut to his left hand which ought to have been shrugged off but instead turns badly infected and notwithstanding constant debridement and disinfection is getting steadily worse. Then in the chapter entitled The Iron Captain along comes Moqorro, still apparently alive and well after 10 days drifting in the ocean clinging to a spar. I can help you says he, but it will hurt. Victarion, being ironborn, says he can take it.

Now this is a Victarion POV but quite suddenly the perspective changes:

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and made... Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers...

There are two points of interest here, first and perhaps most obviously we have the fire made flesh thing (or perhaps the other way around) which is also evident in the later Victarion chapters, and secondly there's that curious switch in perspective.


In other words Victarion may no longer be human and as we see in his next POV although his arm has been “healed” and is stronger than ever his skin is like pork crackling and sometimes splits and smokes. Somehow he appears oblivious to this.

As to Moqorro :

 The firelight made his black skin shine like polished onyx, and sometimes Victarion could swear that the flames tattooed on his face were dancing too, twisting and bending, melting into one another, their colours changing with every turn of the priest's head.

Clearly a glamour in operation here, like Mel's, and, perhaps crucially the Others. GRRM has described them as like the Sidhe made of Ice, so if we apply the same principle as for the red lot and explore the possibility of their being flesh made Ice or Ice made flesh, the comparisons are compelling.

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I haven't seen this before, but I like it!

Frey Family Reunion made a quip about it at HoBW at one time.  Considering the 'madness' of Targaryens... drinking wildfyre to transform into a dragon for example and Viserys' oft repeated 'wake the dragon';  I wonder where these notions originate.  The Targs are mysteriously saved from the doom; receive a prophecy about the PwiP etc and now Dany is the chosen one, or the one chosen to be the mother of dragons.  It makes sense to me that she is the chosen of R'hllor and that some ancestor lives a second life as a dragon god.

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On the subject of the Citadel;  it seems to me that one of their most important functions is weather prediction.  Given that the climate is unbalanced by magic; what knowledge do they have that allows such reliable predictions?   The collection of astronomical data from maesters across the land; sounds a bit like compiling an almanac.  How can the Citadel make such precise announcements when the duration of the seasons is apparently random and unpredictable.  All we know is that the length of the summer equals the length of the winter.

We have some idea of what happens to the population in Westeros when winter arrives; but know nothing about Essos. 

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Great thread.  Just a couple of interesting characters who have studied at the citadel.

Oberyn Martell

Whorsebane Umber

Marwyn the mage. Perhaps the most interesting given his association with Mirri Maz Durr and her role in birthing of dragons and further that he allegedly has 3 pages Of The fabled text signs & portents.

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with all Of The talk of magic I recall I once made a thread trying to identify all Of The magic or unexplained we see or hear about in the books, better minds may be able to draw something interesting from it.

Mel:

Accurate future visions in the flames

Glamours

Resistance to poison

Birthing shadow assasins

Everyone's favourite D&D spell fireball.

Extended lifespan.

Thoros:

Multiple resurrections

Dondarrion:

Flaming blood

Moqorro:

Healing

mirri maz durr:

Resurrection

Dany:

Resistance to fire

Awakening dragons

The others:

Raising whites

Making new others from Crasters sons

Extreme cold

Assorted characters (all Of The North):

Skinchanging 1 or more animals

Bran:

Skin changing Hodor

Visions through time

Communicating through weirwoods

Bloodraven:

Communicating through dreams

Extended lifespan

 

Jojen reed:

Accurate green dreams

Faceless men:

Skinchanging

Quaithe:

Appearing in dreams 

Warlocks:

Life force sucking

Patchface:

Accurate prophecies.

 

Both Tobo Mott and the Alchemists refer to using "spells" as part of their craft.

Glass candles being used to see/ communicate over vast distances. A character called Urrathon the nightWalker is referred to in relation to glass candles and our friend Martyn has one.

I've probably missed tons.

 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Great thread.  Just a couple of interesting characters who have studied at the citadel.

Oberyn Martell

Whorsebane Umber

Marwyn the mage. Perhaps the most interesting given his association with Mirri Maz Durr and her role in birthing of dragons and further that he allegedly has 3 pages Of The fabled text signs & portents.

I would add Qyburn (of Qarth?) to that list.  I suspect is the sorcerer who used Varys in his glass candle ritual.
 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"Nor do I, but . . ." This pause was longer than the one before, and when Varys spoke again his voice was different somehow. "I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King's Landing.

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

 

That he did nothing to dull the senses sounds like Qyburn's MO.

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