StraightFromAsshai

lust or love regarding R+L

62 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Or... she's a prisoner, being deliberately kept away from pertinent information while she births the PTWP.  If she's a willing participant in all this, the least she can do is write her family, say she's okay, and that she was NOT abducted, which does a lot to stave off the ensuing shitstorm that comes down on the Realm.

This is my point about the entire episode.  If Lyanna is a willing participant, then nothing, and I mean nothing, makes sense from the moment Rhaegar finds her in the Riverlands the the moment she dies.  At every turn you need some weird explanation, which only brings up yet more questions.

Whereas if Rhaegar kidnapped her, then you do not need a single additional explanation.  Everything makes perfect sense.

Exactly. I wouldn't necessarily say she was a prisoner 100% (although it could be), but I could imagine Rhaegar playing into his prince charming image to seduce her and deliberately withholding information from her to use her for his prophecy. I do believe that it wasn't a simple love tale like Rhaegar fans want to believe.

 

I do think the kidnapping is more likely than the love tale.

Edited by John Doe

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Giving this a little thought I believe that R+L was a case of neither love nor lust for either of the parties involved

It was all about duty on Rheagar's part - he had to fulfill the prophecy and Save the World.

As to Lyanna - she was abducted and had no say over the proceedings. Her feelings were of no relevance and consent was not necessary, just her womb.

The Fair Prince's heart bled when the KG held down Lyanna while he raped her but "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" to produce the Prince That Was Promised.

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22 hours ago, devilish said:

@YOVMO

Our posts get bigger and bigger so here is a summary of what I think

Indeed....I will try to keep this one short.

22 hours ago, devilish said:

a- At Duskendale Rhaegar got himself caught in Tywin-Aerys feud. Aerys survived, both the lion and the crown prince got hurt but while the warden of the west could rely on his troops and enormous fortress, Rhaegar ended up easy prey to his crazy daddy

b- After Duskendale Aerys made sure Rhaegar will end up with a weak betrothal. He first send Steffon to find some Valyrian nobody. When Steffon fails to do that, he goes for the second weakest option ie Elia Martell. 

c- Princess Elia learns early on that Aerys doesn't like her or her children very much. She also learns that Aerys is developing an obsession for Viserys which is not good news for her or her children. Rhaegar is just too weak (military wise) to protect her and he needs allies. If those allies entail having her accept a second wife then so be it. After all her boy will still be heir to the IT. 

d- Rhaegar gambles everything on Harrenhal.  Aerys learns of his plot and he gatecrashed it leaving Rhaegar in a very dangerous position. At that point Aerys only needs to identify 1 suspect and torture him to declare Rhaegar as a traitor.

I am with you still here.

22 hours ago, devilish said:

e- Rhaegar learns that Lyanna is unhappy of her future marriage and decides to run away with her. The Starks had been always loyal to the crown + Rickard is a reasonable man who just love family. If Rhaegar 'marries' Lyanna and he gets her pregnant then Rickard will probably close an eye to things especially if the girl tells him it was all her idea. The Starks would never let Aerys hurt Lyanna or her children which means Rhaegar would finally have the army he needs. What Rhaegar doesn't know is that Brandon Stark is a hot head who would stupidily gatecrash KL asking for the crown prince head

This is where I can't follow you. If the adult crowned prince of a 300 year dynasty finds that the 16 year old daughter of one of his great lords is unhappy with her betrothal then the only possible thing for him to do is to keep his mouth shut. If, If, BIG IF, Lyanna was not arranged to be married to Robert yet AND if Rhaegar would publically wed her, and he if, prior to running off with her, went to Winterfell and spoke to Lord Rickard about the situation, then MAYYYYYYBBBEEEEE with enough smooth maneuvering, he could have got away with her as a second wife. But a marriage betrothal is not to be taken lightly in Westeros -- it is a point of honor to the girl, a point of honor to the father and, indeed, a holy point to both old gods and new. Add to this the less than honorable way in which it was pulled off and there is simply no way that Rickard could stand for it...especially given the diminished power of the Targaryen family under Areys and after Rhaegar's failure at Harrenall coupled with the Starks new found alliance with the Tully's.

Further, even if you were right, even if RIckard swallowed his pride, ignored the way his daughter was dishonored and accepted the material breech of contract with Storm's End, Rhaegar had to know that he was alienating Robert who was a great lord in his own right. There would be no way that Robert would let this slide. Rhaegar making this move, even if his intentions were honorable, was going to alienate at least one Great Lord and Kingdom -- The Stormlands -- and I fail to see how he wouldn't alienate the North and with the North their alliances with the Riverlands and the Vale. There was the inevitability of totally destroying Targaryen relations with a quarter of the realm, the likely hood of destroying relations with half the realm and should all their allies join them then more than that. The moment Rhaegar took Lyanna he lost half the kingdoms

22 hours ago, devilish said:

f-  Lyanna knows her brother is a hothead but sees that as an advantage. Brandon will probably do something stupid with little to no support from either House Tully or House Stark. That will probably mean that he'll end up arrested. At that point Rickard will have no choice but to negotiate. With two children in Targeryan custody he hardly have a choice. What she doesn't know is that Aerys is as crazy as a horse. I doubt Rhaegar had opened his courting with that.

I think this is where the misunderstanding stems from. This isn't about Brandon simply being hot headed. This is about breaking a marriage contract between two great lords, Rickard and Robert. Lyanna has absolutely nothing to do with this.

22 hours ago, devilish said:

g-  Brandon is indeed arrested and Rickard does goes South to negotiate much to Lyanna's prediction. However much to Rhaegar's horror daddy overdoes this and goes in full killing spree.

I don't see how you can say that Rhaegar is horrified over Arey's actions when he returns from Dorne to lead his father's army against the very people you are suggesting he felt were horrifically treated.

 

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20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Everything the text gives us on Rhaegar point to him being a decent guy at the very least, and to me the idea that he is a kidnapper and a rapist simply doesn't add up. 

What does the text give us?  A bunch of a biased remembrances?

Look, here is what I think the text gives us. Rhaegar is a lonely, melancholy man who isn't necessarily evil or amoral.  But he reads the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised when he's a kid, and thinks it's him.  So he starts trying to fulfill it.  Later, he thinks it's his kids.  

The reason he does all the awful shit he does, is because he thinks he's saving the world, and thus any means justify the ends, and furthermore, that he's protected by prophecy

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42 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

What does the text give us?  A bunch of a biased remembrances?

Look, here is what I think the text gives us. Rhaegar is a lonely, melancholy man who isn't necessarily evil or amoral.  But he reads the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised when he's a kid, and thinks it's him.  So he starts trying to fulfill it.  Later, he thinks it's his kids.  

The reason he does all the awful shit he does, is because he thinks he's saving the world, and thus any means justify the ends, and furthermore, that he's protected by prophecy

Possible, but imo not likely. We'll have to wait and see. Yes, he was melancholy, and we know why.

ASoS, Daenerys IV

“Perhaps so, Your Grace.” Whitebeard paused a moment. “But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy.”
“You make him sound so sour,” Dany protested.
“Not sour, no, but . . . there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense . . . ” The old man hesitated again.
“Say it,” she urged. “A sense . . . ?”
“ . . . of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days.
Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar’s birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. “It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?”
“Yes.
And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.”

What little we know about the tragedy at Summerhall points to some mad attempt at... something, like hatching a dragon's egg. If that is true, I find it even more unlikely for Rhaegar to be willing to go to any lengths to fulfil a prophecy. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I'm surprised that a lot of posters didn't say love.

i believe it was a combination of things, but I don't think it was love. I believe Lyanna may have been infatuated and may have found him attractive. Rheagar may have liked the idea of Lyanna and what she represents.

 

 

Edited by Crona

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45 minutes ago, Crona said:

I'm surprised that a lot of posters didn't say love.

i believe it was a combination of things, but I don't think it was love. I believe Lyanna may have been infatuated and may have found him attractive. Rheagar may have liked the idea of Lyanna and what she represents.

bonus:

  Hide contents

In the show they have an actress that plays Lyanna, and everytime  I see her, that actress reminds of another role she played in the The Fall. In that show, she was a younger girl obsessed with an older man that had a wife with two kids. He is portrayed as this loving and caring husband that everyone likes, however the reality is that he's serial killer. She stalks him and obsessing over him and he ultimately uses her for his own gains. 

For some I reason  I sometimes think this may have happened to Rheagar and Lyanna

 

Congrats, you've managed two spoilers in a single post! :thumbsup:

The thing is, no show spoilers here. 

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21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Congrats, you've managed two spoilers in a single post! :thumbsup:

The thing is, no show spoilers here. 

Well, the The Fall one is not really a spoiler its just a general statement of the show that's pretty much in the summary of it. And  I didn't know we couldn't post anything about the show here, I'll edit it

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Posted (edited)

@Yovmo

You’re making two powerful assumptions here
a-    He was acting rationally
b-    Rhaegar had a good idea of how the North works


Lets tackle point A first. 


After Harrenhal, Rhaegar was a dead man walking. His rebellious plot was exposed and he wasn’t able to seal any alliances whatsoever. To make matter worse, his family was in KL which meant that Aerys had Dorne under check. Not to forget that Aerys favourite Viserys was single that means that the mad king could easily seal a deal with the lion and against Rhaegar by merely marrying Viserys to Cersei.


Lyanna was his only lifeline. She was a noble woman whose daughter to the warden of the North. At Harrenhal, Rhaegar probably learnt about the imminent marriage between Brandon and Cat which means that Rickard could, in theory, rely on the Trouts for support.  


Rhaegar also knew that while Aerys was itching to punish him, he would never give his wardens the satisfaction/idea that he was stripping the crown prince from his lands and titles merely because he ran away with a Stark girl. In Aerys perspective all the wardens/LPs are Targ servants (ie think how he treated Joanna, Jamie and Cersei) and as servants they were there to satisfy the Targs in every way possible. 
That gave Rhaegar time to sort things up with Rickard. Let’s face it, he had more of a chance in persuading a proud but mentally stable family man as opposed to some crazy king who burns people alive.


Which leads us to point B


The Starks had lived in isolation for centuries. So Rhaegar’s knowledge about them came from history books + their reactions at Harrenhal. The first part assured him that the Starks were fiercely loyal to the Targs.  The only time the Starks had the chance to grab some serious power down South (ie the hour of the wolf) they quickly shunned away from it. 


From Lyanna’s reaction and Brandon’s scene at Harrenhal he probably deduced that Northern women were far more influential than the Southern ladies and that the Starks were fiercely protective towards family even to the point of committing treason. That played in his favour. Rhaegar knew that if Lyanna fled with the crown prince then Aerys will probably implicate the Starks into Rhaegar’s plot. That’s what happened in Duskendale were Tywin implicated Rhaegar into his plot merely by saying that he would be a better option to the mad king. 


Under such circumstances Rhaegar assumed that


a-    Lyanna would be able to sort out any differences between him and her father. Someone who gives so much e-way to his daughter must love her to bits and would certainly refuse to hack her true love into bits, especially since he happens to be the crown prince
b-    If the wolves sense that Lyanna is in danger (and she will be in danger since Aerys is crazy and see demons everywhere) then they will call the banners
c-    Once they win the war they will go back to their natural habitat up north without barely asking anything in exchange. 


As said, it was a highly risk plan lead by a desperate young man who wanted to protect his family at all cost. 


However, in Rhaegar’s eyes its far less risky then we see it. We’re talking here of the crown prince whose beauty and charm is unmatched throughout Westeros. The man grew up being adored by legends (Dayne etc), women (Cersei, Elia) and powerful men (Tywin) who would bend over backwards just to make him happy.  If Aegon the unworthy could fill his house with concubines, some of whom were of noble descend then surely he can get away with him having Lyanna as ‘a second wife’ especially since he’s way better then Aegon ever was. 


And to be fair, his plan nearly worked. After Lyanna’s kidnap no one called the banners. The so called rebel houses remained loyal despite Lyanna’s kidnap, Brandon’s arrest and Rickard/Brandon’s execution. They only rebelled when Arryn was ordered to execute two innocent boys who surely had nothing to do with Rickard/Brandon’s ‘crimes’. Therefore in Stark’s eyes (excluding Brandon of course, whom considering how he 'tackled' Lady Barbrey barely understood politics himself) this was nothing but a diplomatic mess. 
 

Edited by devilish

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7 hours ago, Crona said:

Well, the The Fall one is not really a spoiler its just a general statement of the show that's pretty much in the summary of it. And  I didn't know we couldn't post anything about the show here, I'll edit it

There are some "sticky" threads at the top of this forum.

The bottomost sticky is

 

 

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There is only one correct answer: too soon to tell.

We don't know what either of them felt for the other, and there's nowhere near enough text to go on.

GRRM has said we'll get all the info about RR and that should include the scoop on Rhae Rhae and Lya.

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On 08/08/2017 at 11:38 AM, YOVMO said:

I am absolutely on board with this and think the rescue makes perfect sense here. The problem remains....after he rescues you then what? If you rescue a teenage girl what do you do with her? You are the crowned pricnce of the 7 kingdoms, have Arthur Dayne by your side and have just rescued the teenage daughter of one of your great lords who is engaged to another one of your great lords. The only possible things to do here would have been to return Lyanna to Winterfell or, possibly, to Storm's End. The decision to bring her to Dorne was, at the very least, incredibly poor judgment and was absolutely going to incite a war.

The same thing applies to elopement. If both of them were in so in love with each other and ran away together they might have had a plan, right? If they can somehow communicate with each other, they can leave a note or send a raven, something to someone. So elopement is even more unlikely if you think about it. Either R kidnapped L or he rescued her. If they planned something they would have left notes, send letters, someone would know, and they would not go to Dorne!

But if they are running from Aerys, where do they go? Who is with Rhaegar and Lyanna? Arthur Dayne.

If they are running away from Aerys, they might find it difficult to send messages without the King knowing where they are. And then Brandon Stark loses his mind and go face the king of madness Aerys and threat to kill Rhaegar.

The moment Brandon enters the Red Keep demanding for a duel and shouting, everything is lost.

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On 09/08/2017 at 8:00 PM, cpg2016 said:

He comes out of hiding to actively defend his father.  You do understand what it means to defend someones actions, right?  He didn't come out and say "my father is insane and broke the feudal contract, lets dethrone him and I'll make sure justice is done".  He came out and fought to keep his father on the throne.  I don't need to quote the books.  In the LITERAL sense of the word he is defending his father's actions.  If the book says "character X was walking south, but turned around and started walking in the opposite direction" we don't need to be told that direction is North, it's made clear by the text.  When the text says "When Prince Rhaegar heard about the Rebellion his father caused, he came out of hiding and raised and army to defeat Robert" we don't need to hear that he endorses his father's right to burn innocents alive; he is fighting for that right, quite literally.

Well lets see.  Brandon's reaction is that of a brother whose sister was kidnapped.  Daenerys straight up thinks that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna "at swordpoint" and she's getting the pro-Rhaegar version of the story.

Where did you read that Lyanna loved or eloped with Rhaegar?  Nowhere.  The difference is, all the circumstantial evidence and the little direct evidence we get, supports Rhaegar being a kidnapper and rapist.

Rhaegar told Jaime that everything would change when he comes back from the Trident, he was reffering to the counsil of Harrenhal. He pretended to fight for Aerys, but he realized he had to fight for his family, not his father. He wanted to depose Aerys for a long time.

All the cirscumstancial evidence in book 1 made us think that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn. Brandon was not there when Lyanna was kidnapped. "At swordpoint" is the evidence for kidnapping, yes, that's why I think there was no elopement like some people claim.

I didn't read Lyanna loved or eloped with Rhaegar. Did I write that? I was exposing my thoughts on here, nobody knows for certain what really happened. Some people, the majority, think that they both fell in love and ran away, not me. If you want to think Rhaegar wanted to rape a girl, fine. I don't agree with you, but we both have the right to believe in theories. You can even think that Jon Snow is Ashara Dayne's son with Brandon Stark.

What I like is to analyze the facts and see if they make sense. Rhaegar kidnapping or running away with a teenager doesn't make sense. Maybe that's the reason George Martin is not finishing the books? Don't know. Maybe Martin didn't think that much about it. Or maybe he is, with small and slow (very slow) steps, trying to make us understand what really happened?

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On 8/10/2017 at 3:40 PM, cpg2016 said:

What does the text give us?  A bunch of a biased remembrances?

Look, here is what I think the text gives us. Rhaegar is a lonely, melancholy man who isn't necessarily evil or amoral.  But he reads the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised when he's a kid, and thinks it's him.  So he starts trying to fulfill it.  Later, he thinks it's his kids.  

The reason he does all the awful shit he does, is because he thinks he's saving the world, and thus any means justify the ends, and furthermore, that he's protected by prophecy

I think there is a decent case to be made for Rhaegar having been told he was the Prince that was Promised.

His parents, who want nothing to do with each other, are forced to marry because someone of their line will be the promised prince.

He is the firstborn, and happens to be born amidst smoke, salt, and grief during the Summerhall tragedy. No mention of a comet that I recall.

From then on Rhaella has miscarriages, stillbirths, and children who don't live to their third birthday.

Between the lack of other candidates and the unhappy marriage they have, I would be shocked if Aerys and/or Rhaella didn't tell Rhaegar he was the prophesied savior of Westeros. 

Remember that Aemon too thought Rhaegar was the one. Remember also that by the time Viserys was born, Rhaegar was already an adult by Westerosi standards.

Viserys is still a toddler when Rhaegar gets married, and four years old when Rhaenys is born. While I can't say for sure what makes Rhaegar think his children will be the heads of the dragon (some kind of premonition that he would live long enough to be TDtwP?) the only other option by the time Aegon is born is Rhaegar's little brother. Per Barristan, Viserys was already showing tendencies toward madness in childhood. There may not be anything that says TDtwP must be sane, but I can see why people might think that he should be.

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5 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

<snip

What I like is to analyze the facts and see if they make sense. Rhaegar kidnapping or running away with a teenager doesn't make sense. Maybe that's the reason George Martin is not finishing the books? Don't know. Maybe Martin didn't think that much about it. Or maybe he is, with small and slow (very slow) steps, trying to make us understand what really happened?

Whoa. Slow down there. He is finishing the books. I don't know if you've ever written anything longer than a check, but this kind of story takes a ton of time to do properly. Just because he's not writing fast enough for your liking doesn't mean he's not working.

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It was lust . Wasn't the poem based on the world being destroyed by lust (fire) or hate (ice) .  It depends on what your view of Rhaegar . Barrie seems to think Rhaegar was in love Lyanna while Robert thinks it was lust and JonCon doesn't make state it one way or the other .

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2 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

It was lust . Wasn't the poem based on the world being destroyed by lust (fire) or hate (ice) .  It depends on what your view of Rhaegar . Barrie seems to think Rhaegar was in love Lyanna while Robert thinks it was lust and JonCon doesn't make state it one way or the other .

Which poem?

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I think there is a decent case to be made for Rhaegar having been told he was the Prince that was Promised.

His parents, who want nothing to do with each other, are forced to marry because someone of their line will be the promised prince.

He is the firstborn, and happens to be born amidst smoke, salt, and grief during the Summerhall tragedy. No mention of a comet that I recall.

From then on Rhaella has miscarriages, stillbirths, and children who don't live to their third birthday.

Between the lack of other candidates and the unhappy marriage they have, I would be shocked if Aerys and/or Rhaella didn't tell Rhaegar he was the prophesied savior of Westeros. 

Remember that Aemon too thought Rhaegar was the one. Remember also that by the time Viserys was born, Rhaegar was already an adult by Westerosi standards.

Viserys is still a toddler when Rhaegar gets married, and four years old when Rhaenys is born. While I can't say for sure what makes Rhaegar think his children will be the heads of the dragon (some kind of premonition that he would live long enough to be TDtwP?) the only other option by the time Aegon is born is Rhaegar's little brother. Per Barristan, Viserys was already showing tendencies toward madness in childhood. There may not be anything that says TDtwP must be sane, but I can see why people might think that he should be.

I never considered this, but it makes sense. Everyone in the Targ family should have known about the prophecy, after all, as well as the Prince being in R and A's line. It's likely somebody, probably Aemon, maybe everyone, thought it was Rhaegar.

I think many people see his discovery of the ancient scrolls as the reason he started to believe he was the PTWP, but that's not what it actually tells us. All we know was that the scrolls convinced him to be a warrior. Likely, he was reading the lightbringer prophecy.

Edited by Hodor the Articulate

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Which poem?

I guess he is refering to the poem "Fire and Ice" by Robert Frost. GRRM has said that it was one of the things which caused him to name the series "A Song of ice and Fire. 

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

Quote
Why your saga is called A Song of Ice and Fire, because of the Wall and the dragons or is something more beyond that?
Oh! That’s the obvious thing but yes, there’s more. People say I was influenced by Robert Frost’s poem, and of course I was, I mean... Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.

 

Edited by Queen of Procrastination

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18 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

The same thing applies to elopement. If both of them were in so in love with each other and ran away together they might have had a plan, right? If they can somehow communicate with each other, they can leave a note or send a raven, something to someone. So elopement is even more unlikely if you think about it. Either R kidnapped L or he rescued her. If they planned something they would have left notes, send letters, someone would know, and they would not go to Dorne!

100% agree. I am on team kidnap here. At the very most I can say that he kidnapped her with words and stories of prophecy and not by sword point. I don't buy love or elopement. Either way, the start of this discussion, I believe, was just my assentation that Rhaegar was a shitty person regardless of which option it was. Even if you are 100% right through and through Rhaegar is still a dick

 

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