Ser Loras The Gay

Khal drogo marrying Dany, why?

110 posts in this topic

24 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

People, Dany was 13. I don't care how hot of a 13 year old she was. Drogo absolutely could have married a more attractive person. You know, like a random hot 18 year old.

Thirteen still is a step up from the 7 year olds he usually rapes.

Drogo and the Dothraki = Ser Gregor and his Merry Men

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Thirteen still is a step up from the 7 year olds he usually rapes.

Drogo and the Dothraki = Ser Gregor and his Merry Men

WTF are you talking about? When did Drogo rape a child?

And Gregor and his men probably never raped 7 year olds either. It's called wartime propaganda.

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

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10 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Where in Dothraki culture does it ever hint that they would value having a super rare collectable wife? You are oddly complicating the situation. Dothraki have exactly one core religious belief: TSWMTW will some day unite all of them and conquer the world. Drogo is trying to give birth to this person because he is ambitious and obviously thinks Dany's blood is the key, probably because the dosh khaleen told him so.

Dany is not a princess. She is sister to a beggar.

You're arguing that the motivation behind a marriage between two individuals of status is some convoluted prophecy conspiracy and I'm complicating the situation?

This a world where heritage = status, and Dany, who is descended from dragon lords of Old Valyria and Aegon the Conqueror, gives Drogo plenty of bragging rights. I mean, who else is he going to marry? The daughter of some other Khal or a previous Khal? Any Khal can get that. The last Targ princess, though? Dany's one-of-a-kind. Even exiled and impoverished, she is still special because people still hold the Targaryen name in reverence.

There's no need to add prophecy into this, especially when there's nothing that says the TSWMTW has anything to do with Valyrian blood or even Drogo. The first time anyone is identified as TSWMTW is during the ceremony in Vaes Dothrak.

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2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

You're arguing that the motivation behind a marriage between two individuals of status is some convoluted prophecy conspiracy and I'm complicating the situation?

This a world where heritage = status, and Dany, who is descended from dragon lords of Old Valyria and Aegon the Conqueror, gives Drogo plenty of bragging rights. I mean, who else is he going to marry? The daughter of some other Khal or a previous Khal? Any Khal can get that. The last Targ princess, though? Dany's one-of-a-kind. Even exiled and impoverished, she is still special because people still hold the Targaryen name in reverence.

There's no need to add prophecy into this, especially when there's nothing that says the TSWMTW has anything to do with Valyrian blood or even Drogo. The first time anyone is identified as TSWMTW is during the ceremony in Vaes Dothrak.

This conspiracy is not convoluted at all. It is quite straightforward. Varys and Illyrio have been manipulating Drogo to help achieve their own goals, just like Varys does with everyone (especially Tyrion).

This is not a world where heritage = status. It is a world where power = status. Viserys is literally a beggar precisely because his heritage doesn't mean jack shit. What bragging rights could it possibly give Drogo? Why should any of the Dothraki be impressed by his Valyrian wife? Almost no one holds the Targaryen name in reverence, especially not Dothraki. Pretty much just House Darry actually.

There is definitely a need to address the prophecy aspect:

Quote

When she emerged from the lake, shivering and dripping, her handmaid Doreah hurried to her with a robe of painted sandsilk, but Khal Drogo waved her away. He was looking on her swollen breasts and the curve of her belly with approval, and Dany could see the shape of his manhood pressing through his horsehide trousers, below the heavy gold medallions of his belt. She went to him and helped him unlace. Then her huge khal took her by the hips and lifted her into the air, as he might lift a child. The bells in his hair rang softly.

Dany wrapped her arms around his shoulders and pressed her face against his neck as he thrust himself inside her. Three quick strokes and it was done. "The stallion who mounts the world," Drogo whispered hoarsely. His hands still smelled of horse blood. He bit at her throat, hard, in the moment of his pleasure, and when he lifted her off, his seed filled her and trickled down the inside of her thighs. Only then was Doreah permitted to drape her in the scented sandsilk, and Irri to fit soft slippers to her feet.

The TSWMTW prophecy is clearly important to Drogo.

Do you think it is just a coincidence that Dany's child happened to be foretold to be TSWMTW? That is just SUPER CONVENIENT for Illyrio's plan. After all, the next step in the plan was a staged assassination attempt on Dany, who was, you know, pregnant with TSWMTW. I can think of no better way to motivate Drogo to invade Westeros.

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54 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This is not a world where heritage = status. It is a world where power = status. Viserys is literally a beggar precisely because his heritage doesn't mean jack shit.

Both power and and heritage gives you status. The Westerlings, despite being poor, is described as having better blood than the Freys because their line is ancient, descended from the First Men. Walder Frey, despite having power and wealth, is looked down upon by older houses because Freys are an upstart house. Clearly, blood and name does mean something. That's not say it trumps other factors, like lands or money. Not everyone would turn their nose up at a Frey, if it meant a decent dowry. But it still holds some value, especially when it comes to betrothals.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

What bragging rights could it possibly give Drogo? Why should any of the Dothraki be impressed by his Valyrian wife? Almost no one holds the Targaryen name in reverence, especially not Dothraki. Pretty much just House Darry actually.

The Targaryen name is infamous, and they're still regarded as god-like by anyone who isn't Robert B. Cersei justifies her incest because the Targs did it, Jon's hero is the Young Dragon. I mean, even their currency is still minted with the Targ sigil to remind everyone of their legacy. No family with as many accomplishments as the Targs is going to be viewed as worthless.

On top of that, the Dothraki respect might, so of course the last official female descendant of Aegon the Conqueror is going to be prime wife material. He gets to be the only one in the world to brag about that until Viserys progenates.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The TSWMTW prophecy is clearly important to Drogo.

Do you think it is just a coincidence that Dany's child happened to be foretold to be TSWMTW? That is just SUPER CONVENIENT for Illyrio's plan. After all, the next step in the plan was a staged assassination attempt on Dany, who was, you know, pregnant with TSWMTW. I can think of no better way to motivate Drogo to invade Westeros.

Staged? What the hell are you on about? The assassin was sent by Robert. Even if it was staged, what does that have to do with TSWMTW? Drogo would have been furious that the King of Westeros is trying to assassinate his wife, regardless.

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Drogo would have grown up hearing stories about TSWMTW from Khal Bharbo and everyone else around him. As the young warrior's prowess on the battlefield and reputation grew, he may have even have wondered if he himself was this mysterious Khalakka of myth and legend - perhaps in a similiar manner to how one Rhaegar Targaryen one believed he was TPTWP. As his enemies kept falling and his braid kept growing, Drogo would really have had no choice but to consider the possibility that The Stallion would either be him or be born of his line.

As @devilish pointed out, Drogo wasn't your average Barbarian Horse Lord, due to his mercurial nature and willingness to eventually accept new ideas such as owning property, trying out new sexual positions, learning the common tongue, halting his men from rape, accepting aid from a Maegi and promising to cross the sea. Drogo's braid and bells act as a pretty good metaphor for the man - constant growth as a warrior, willingness to reach new places and accept new additions to his all around game.

Regardless of prophecy or conspiracy, wouldn't Drogo have found the marriage to Dany appealing because the subsequent child of their union would have the blood of Old Valyria, as well as that of Aegon The Dragon? The Dothraki's two most beloved pass times are riding a mounted creature and fighting, so one can imagine the prospect of Drogo's son having ancestral dragon rider blood being highly appealing to a man who apparently had not lost one fight in his 30-odd years of life. 

During their initial parlays, Illyrio would probaby have given the great Khal a Targaryen history lesson or two, and one can imagine Drogo perhaps being impressed by the tales of Aegon's Conquest - he was pretty much trying to defeat and assimilate all the other Khalasars, similiar to Aegon making his Seven Kingdoms.

I do wonder what the Dothraki think about Old Valyria, considering they rode out of the East near the time of The Doom of Valyria, one would assume they have some knowledge of The Freehold and it's once wide-reaching might. Khal Dhako was nicknamed The Dragon of The North long ago when he torched Ibbish (or Vaes Aresak as he wondefully put it) so it would seem likely that the Horse Lords know a decent amount about the power of dragons.

Now, Illyrio setting up the Dosh Khaleen's proclamation behind the scenes is another matter entirely and I can't say yay or nay.

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Both power and and heritage gives you status. The Westerlings, despite being poor, is described as having better blood than the Freys because their line is ancient, descended from the First Men. Walder Frey, despite having power and wealth, is looked down upon by older houses because Freys are an upstart house. Clearly, blood and name does mean something. That's not say it trumps other factors, like lands or money. Not everyone would turn their nose up at a Frey, if it meant a decent dowry. But it still holds some value, especially when it comes to betrothals.

The Targaryen name is infamous, and they're still regarded as god-like by anyone who isn't Robert B. Cersei justifies her incest because the Targs did it, Jon's hero is the Young Dragon. I mean, even their currency is still minted with the Targ sigil to remind everyone of their legacy. No family with as many accomplishments as the Targs is going to be viewed as worthless.

On top of that, the Dothraki respect might, so of course the last official female descendant of Aegon the Conqueror is going to be prime wife material. He gets to be the only one in the world to brag about that until Viserys progenates.

Staged? What the hell are you on about? The assassin was sent by Robert. Even if it was staged, what does that have to do with TSWMTW? Drogo would have been furious that the King of Westeros is trying to assassinate his wife, regardless.

I highly doubt the Dothraki have any substantial knowledge of Westerosi history or give a shit about Aegon I. The Dothraki respect might over blood. They specifically do not respect people just because the had mighty ancestors, in contrast to Westerosi tradition.

Staged? Yeah... Definitely. By Varys. It says so right in the book:

Quote

"Yes. And how was it you knew the wine was poisoned?"

"I . . . I but suspected . . . the caravan brought a letter from Varys, he warned me there would be attempts. He wanted you watched, yes, but not harmed." He went to his knees. "If I had not told them someone else would have. You know that."

So Varys both sent the assassin and then warned Jorah of the assassin. 100% staged.

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

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8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Drogo would have grown up hearing stories about TSWMTW from Khal Bharbo and everyone else around him. As the young warrior's prowess on the battlefield and reputation grew, he may have even have wondered if he himself was this mysterious Khalakka of myth and legend - perhaps in a similiar manner to how one Rhaegar Targaryen one believed he was TPTWP. As his enemies kept falling and his braid kept growing, Drogo would really have had no choice but to consider the possibility that The Stallion would either be him or be born of his line.

As @devilish pointed out, Drogo wasn't your average Barbarian Horse Lord, due to his mercurial nature and willingness to eventually accept new ideas such as owning property, trying out new sexual positions, learning the common tongue, halting his men from rape, accepting aid from a Maegi and promising to cross the sea. Drogo's braid and bells act as a pretty good metaphor for the man - constant growth as a warrior, willingness to reach new places and accept new additions to his all around game.

Regardless of prophecy or conspiracy, wouldn't Drogo have found the marriage to Dany appealing because the subsequent child of their union would have the blood of Old Valyria, as well as that of Aegon The Dragon? The Dothraki's two most beloved pass times are riding a mounted creature and fighting, so one can imagine the prospect of Drogo's son having ancestral dragon rider blood being highly appealing to a man who apparently had not lost one fight in his 30-odd years of life. 

During their initial parlays, Illyrio would probaby have given the great Khal a Targaryen history lesson or two, and one can imagine Drogo perhaps being impressed by the tales of Aegon's Conquest - he was pretty much trying to defeat and assimilate all the other Khalasars, similiar to Aegon making his Seven Kingdoms.

No. Why would Dothraki care? Do they even know anything about Aegon I or his dynasty? Probably not. After all, the earth ends at the poison water.

Quote

"The earth ends at the black salt sea," Drogo answered at once. He wet a cloth in a basin of warm water to wipe the sweat and oil from his skin. "No horse can cross the poison water."

The Dothraki don't exactly study history in their spare time. They should hold no reverence for Valyrian blood. And based on that quote from Drogo, I doubt that Illyrio bothered to school him in Westerosi history.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I do wonder what the Dothraki think about Old Valyria, considering they rode out of the East near the time of The Doom of Valyria, one would assume they have some knowledge of The Freehold and it's once wide-reaching might. Khal Dhako was nicknamed The Dragon of The North long ago when he torched Ibbish (or Vaes Aresak as he wondefully put it) so it would seem likely that the Horse Lords know a decent amount about the power of dragons.

Now, Illyrio setting up the Dosh Khaleen's proclamation behind the scenes is another matter entirely and I can't say yay or nay.

Khal Dhako may have had that moniker, but I doubt it was the Dothraki who called him the Dragon of the North. Were there maesters hanging out with the Dothraki keeping tabs on their nicknames for each other? This moniker was probably used by people who feared being killed by Dhako, residents of the Free Cities, rather than the Dothraki themselves. The Dothraki probably knew something about Dragons, sure. But that doesn't explain why Drogo would, all on his own, come to the conclusion that he should have children with a Valyrian wife. There are no dragons to ride, so what good would it do?

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Take away her throne and Daenerys is still a very desirable woman from Drogo's perspective.  She is the most beautiful woman in the world and the rightful heir to Westeros.  The last from the line of ruling Dragonlords in the greatest civilization known to have existed in their world.  Dany has prestige that no other woman in that world can equal.  The Targaryens are the most famous family in that world.  No other family, including the Starks, can match the Targaryens for prestige.  Drogo was actually "marrying up" because Dany comes from the direct line of the one of the forty ruling families of the Valyrian Freehold. 

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Posted (edited)

On 8/4/2017 at 1:58 AM, cgrav said:

<snip

Viserys says that the prophecy will be about Dany's child. Unless the prophecies are very predictably about the children of the Khals, then how would he know that detail? The ellipses in the quote also indicate that he knew more but was interrupted.

<snip

No, the ellipses indicate that he was going to say more. This is Viserys we're talking about. He doesn't have to know anything to speak. He's the Jon Snow of the Targaryen family.

ETA: The Stallion Who Mounts the World is the same as The Prince that was Promised, a prophecy that's been slanted by sexism so that everyone assumes the promised individual will be male. Dany is the MARE who will mount the world, conquering it with her dragons. 

Though I'd love to know how Illyrio could bribe the Dosh Khaleen. That would be an interesting scene. They're stuck in Vaes Dothrak with nothing to do but gossip and prophecy about unborn children. They can't remarry. I wonder what their price would be for falsifying a prophecy held sacred by their entire culture.

Edited by Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He's the Jon Snow of the Targaryen family.

That's what made him a great pawn: Illyrio could divulge certain sensitive information to Viserys, trusting he wouldn't figure out that he was being manipulated.

I have to say I'm conflicted on this one. Due to the vague hints, I'm not sure if the specific prophecy was commissioned, or if they simply knew that some offspring-related prophecy would be given.

Edited by cgrav

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4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I highly doubt the Dothraki have any substantial knowledge of Westerosi history or give a shit about Aegon I. The Dothraki respect might over blood. They specifically do not respect people just because the had mighty ancestors, in contrast to Westerosi tradition.

There's no evidence to assume the Dothraki are that uncultured. Everyone and their mother knows who Aegon the Conqueror is, just like everyone knows what dragons are, despite most having never seen a real one. The dude is legendary.

That might over blood is all the Dothraki care about is another oversimplification. If that were true, the Dosh Khaleen wouldn't exist, as they have no power other that of status. It's human nature to note celebrity and reputation, things Dany has a boatload of, thanks to her ancestors.

5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Staged? Yeah... Definitely. By Varys. It says so right in the book:

Quote

"Yes. And how was it you knew the wine was poisoned?"

"I . . . I but suspected . . . the caravan brought a letter from Varys, he warned me there would be attempts. He wanted you watched, yes, but not harmed." He went to his knees. "If I had not told them someone else would have. You know that."

So Varys both sent the assassin and then warned Jorah of the assassin. 100% staged.

That doesn't prove it was staged, only that Varys warned Jorah about Robert ordering Dany's assassination.

Certainly, Varys manipulated the situation, by telling Robert about the pregnancy and convincing him to act on it. But you're implying this whole thing was set up from the beginning, which is impossible because the conversation Arya heard indicates Varys and Illyrio didn't have a prepared plan to goad Drogo into coming to Westeros at that stage.

“Too soon, too soon,” the voice with the accent complained. “What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay.”
“As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?”

[...]
“Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages.”

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GRRM spoke briefly about Danny-Drogo marriage. He basically confirmed that Drogo was committed to keep his side of the bargain with Viserys in due time. If he truly believed that there’s no life beyond the poisoned sea then he would certainly not agreed to such plan wouldn’t he? 

 


Drogo is far more cultured then the average Dothraki warlord. Unlike other Dothraki he owns a mansion in Pentos which is guarded by non Dothraki warriors (ie the Unsullied). He’s got a relationship with the magister of Pentos and he trusts him enough to broker a marriage deal on his behalf. He also treats Danny with great kindness. By doing that he slowly pulls her at his side and against Viserys. Meanwhile he also postpones his plans to invade Westeros, which ends up frustrating the idiotic beggar king who goes on ‘awaking his dragon’ against the wrong people.


The Magister of Pentos had enough contacts and he was rich enough to raise an army on Viserys behalf without the need of Drogo marrying Danny. Yet he refrains to do so. Instead he gives Danny 3 dragon eggs despite knowing very well that they were worth an army of sellswords. He also intercedes with the GC so they would support first Danny’s claim and later on Aegon’s claim. He had never done anything of this sort for Viserys.


If you ask me Illyio and Drogo cooked a well-organized plan. Viserys was persuaded to have Danny marry Drogo only for the Khal to frustrate him long enough for Viserys to commit hara-kiri. With the beggar king out of the way, Danny was at the forefront to claim the IT. Robert’s half-baked assassination attempt which was organized and foiled by Illyrio’s best buddy (Viserys) men was enough to give Drogo the ideal casus belli to invade Westeros. If things went according to plan, I wouldn’t be surprised if the khal would see the GC and an army of unsullied joining him his quest.
 

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5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

There's no evidence to assume the Dothraki are that uncultured. Everyone and their mother knows who Aegon the Conqueror is, just like everyone knows what dragons are, despite most having never seen a real one. The dude is legendary.

That might over blood is all the Dothraki care about is another oversimplification. If that were true, the Dosh Khaleen wouldn't exist, as they have no power other that of status. It's human nature to note celebrity and reputation, things Dany has a boatload of, thanks to her ancestors.

That doesn't prove it was staged, only that Varys warned Jorah about Robert ordering Dany's assassination.

Certainly, Varys manipulated the situation, by telling Robert about the pregnancy and convincing him to act on it. But you're implying this whole thing was set up from the beginning, which is impossible because the conversation Arya heard indicates Varys and Illyrio didn't have a prepared plan to goad Drogo into coming to Westeros at that stage.

“Too soon, too soon,” the voice with the accent complained. “What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay.”
“As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?”

[...]
“Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages.”

There's a difference between staging an assassination attempt and having Westeros thrown into civil war. The former was needed so that Drogo would have the ideal Casus belli to persuade his Dothraki horde to invade Westeros. There again, since horses can’t swim the narrow sea, time was needed for the Khal to amass enough wealth to raise a fleet. That needed time especially since I suspect that Illyio was also working overtime to convince the GC to join them.


Also time worked in Danny’s favour. Robert was drinking himself to an early grave. Once he died, he would leave behind an incompetent fool whose ‘paternity’ was somehow in doubt. Tywin was the second best hand of the king in Westeros history but he was old.  Both Doran and Hoster were either sick or dying. The former would be succeeded by a fiery anti Lannister lady while the latter would be succeeded by Sweet Robin V2.  Meanwhile the lion and the wolf were at each other neck. Once Doran and Hoster died, Varys could easily spread the mother of all bombs (ie Joffrey’s origins) causing a civil war and making it easy for Drogo to invade the whole place.
 

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

No. Why would Dothraki care? Do they even know anything about Aegon I or his dynasty? Probably not. After all, the earth ends at the poison water.

 

It's more of a case of if Drogo himself cared or not, his Khalasar followed him in everything apparently. As I said previously Illyrio would surley have gone over a great number of details surrounding Dany's family and their storied history during his initial contact with Drogo, why wouldn't he? Knowing how a grifter like Illyrio works, why wouldn't he hype up Dany's family? -  for the sake of sealing the deal and perhaps even to ensure that she and Viserys were not treated more harshly.

With Drogo's noted penchant for combat, power, conquest and glory, why do you think he wouldn't he be impressed by such tales of the Targaryens? How many other brides might he come across that boast the blood of 300 years worth of the very best warriors, kings and dragon riders? We don't hear about any Essosi dynastys that ruled their territory for the length of time the Targaryens ruled The Seven Kingdoms, and there certainly wasn't any Khal who united the hordes for three centuries.

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

 

The Dothraki don't exactly study history in their spare time. They should hold no reverence for Valyrian blood. And based on that quote from Drogo, I doubt that Illyrio bothered to school him in Westerosi history.

Well we know they are not a lettered people, yet they clearly are big proponents of their own oral traditions (it is known). As the Dothraki are said to have rode out from the East relatively close to the time of The Doom, would it not be prudent to assume they have at least some understanding of how powerful Valyria was during it's pomp? Of all the cities the Dothraki have sacked, the various Valyrian ruins they musy have pillaged, as well as whatever Free Cities and settlements along the Rhoyne they have spent time in and around, they must have heard a few tales about the Dragon Lords who ruled the world not to long ago.

In their current form, the Dothraki have been around for roughy the same amount of time as the fall of Valyria, they are bound to have many of their own stories regarding the Freehold who proceeded them as "mounted warrior slavers who pretty much do what they want". The fact the Valyrians rode dragons - a much more impressive and hard to break mount than a horse - would have to carry some weight to a people who's entire existence is based around equestrian subjects. Look at how Dany's remaining Khalasar instantly drop to ther knees at the end of AGOT when they see Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal. I guess we will see how the Dothraki look at a larger dragon in TWOW when Jhaqo's horde meet Drogon, but I expect that he will be met with a great deal of superstition from the Khalsar, as is usually the case.

That's not to say that they hold Valyria in high regard mind you, but as a highly martial society wouldn't the Dothraki, and more importantly Drogo himself, have more reason to respect the fables of the Dragon Lords than any other Essosi peoples they may encounter on their travels? As I mentioned previously, The Dothraki love riding horses and fighting, with a combination of the two being just as popular, if not more so. The Valyrians rode dragons and beat every opponent put in front of them. There are certainly several cultural similiarities between the lords of dragon and horse.

Also, consider the Dothraki afterlife tale of the great Khalasar, where fallen Khals ride their fiery steeds across the great planes of the night sky - to a highly superstitous culture like the Horse Lords, this could draw comparisons to tales of the Freehold and the dragons of old, wheeling across the sky coated in flame. Combine this with TSTMTW prophecy and Dany's eggs and there is certainly a case for the undefeated Drogo being impressed by the idea of dragon blood being mixed into his line.

As to the poisoned water quote and how it applies to Drogo's opinion of The Seven Kingdoms, while Drogo and his people certainly eschew travelling over water, they would have seen many ships moving over water in whatever port cities they have sought protection payments from, as well as encountering various Dothraki speaking merchants and tradesmen throughout the years who must have mentioned Westeros once or twice. 

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Khal Dhako may have had that moniker, but I doubt it was the Dothraki who called him the Dragon of the North. Were there maesters hanging out with the Dothraki keeping tabs on their nicknames for each other? This moniker was probably used by people who feared being killed by Dhako, residents of the Free Cities, rather than the Dothraki themselves. The Dothraki probably knew something about Dragons, sure. But that doesn't explain why Drogo would, all on his own, come to the conclusion that he should have children with a Valyrian wife. There are no dragons to ride, so what good would it do?

Not maesters, no - but the Braavosi adventurer Terrio Erastes did, he wrote Fire Upon The Grass, a chronicle of his time spent amongst the Dothraki as a guest of Khal Dhako. In the book Terrio gives his first hand account of the destruction of Ibbish, which led to Dhako being named "The Dragon of The North", probably by both his own Khalassar as well as any potential victims or enemies who heard the tale of Vaes Aresak. Dhako was said to take pride in being called the "Dragon of The North" - regardless of who coined the moniker, is this perhaps another hint at Dothraki holding the idea of dragons high.

Fair enough there were no dragons when the marriage pact was brokered, but Illyrio was in possesion of three eggs, aswell as a glib tongue and potentialy even the knowledge that Dany would inevitably hatch the eggs. The Cheesemonger is an apex-hustler after all, and Drogo was not only fond of prophecy but clearly had a pretty large ego. As the undefeated Khal who ruled the biggest horde seen in recent memory, who else would be worthy to give him an heir? Other than the blood of fellow conquerors?

 

 

Edited by Leo of House Cartel

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Posted (edited)

@Leo of House Cartel

Sure, Illyrio could have tried to convince Drogo to marry Dany based on her family history. I just think it is 99% likely, based on that line from Viserys about the "mummer's show of a prophecy" that Illyrio and Varys staged the whole TSWMTW foretelling in the first place. And if that is true, then I think it would have been a straightforward and easy first step to have the dosh khaleen tell Drogo to seek a Valyrian wife for his son to fulfill prophecy. It is the single thing that Drogo cares about most, very similar to Rhaegar, who also seems to have chosen his women for their blood, because he thought the PtwP could be created with their blood. The PtwP and TSWMTW are of course likely to be 2 versions of the same prophecy.

I am sure the Dothraki have some general knowledge about the Valyrians and their dragons, like how people in Europe knew that Rome existed and never forgot about it. After all, Rome left behind roads that were unsurpassed and still used for hundreds of years, just like Valyria. But Dothraki respect strength, not ancestors. When Dany leapt the firepit at her wedding, it made Drogo smile. This is a parallel scene to Lyanna being the KotLT at Harrenhal and getting Rhaegar's attention. Both Drogo and Rhaegar witnessed their respective women demonstrate their skinchanging abilities, abilities derived from their special blood. And this is why Drogo wanted children with Dany. Not because she was beautiful, or had prestige, or had a claim to the Iron Throne, or anything else. Drogo wanted to produce TSWMTW pure and simple, and Illyrio and Varys made sure that the dosh khaleen vindicated his decision with their vitally important foretelling. And so I go one step further and say that it also would have been prudent of them to have the dosh khaleen tell Drogo to seek a Valyrian bride in the first place. Varys is a master player, a "wizard" even, and this is like elementary school-level game of thrones for him.

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

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On 8/7/2017 at 0:35 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

There's no evidence to assume the Dothraki are that uncultured. Everyone and their mother knows who Aegon the Conqueror is, just like everyone knows what dragons are, despite most having never seen a real one. The dude is legendary.

That might over blood is all the Dothraki care about is another oversimplification. If that were true, the Dosh Khaleen wouldn't exist, as they have no power other that of status. It's human nature to note celebrity and reputation, things Dany has a boatload of, thanks to her ancestors.

That doesn't prove it was staged, only that Varys warned Jorah about Robert ordering Dany's assassination.

Certainly, Varys manipulated the situation, by telling Robert about the pregnancy and convincing him to act on it. But you're implying this whole thing was set up from the beginning, which is impossible because the conversation Arya heard indicates Varys and Illyrio didn't have a prepared plan to goad Drogo into coming to Westeros at that stage.

“Too soon, too soon,” the voice with the accent complained. “What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay.”
“As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?”

[...]
“Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages.”

The foretelling of TSWMTW prophecy for Drogo's son was (I think) set up from the beginning. The (definitely staged) assassination attempt was planned immediately after the conversation you quoted. Illyrio told Varys to delay, which Varys apparently deemed to be too difficult. Instead of delaying, in the very next chapter Varys informed Robert that Daenerys was pregnant so that Robert would both give his explicit permission to kill Dany, and so that Robert would publicly offer a lordship to any successful assassin, directly antagonizing Drogo and luring him to Westeros. Robert did not actually send assassins himself of course. That would be Varys' job.

Let's review the staged assassination. First, Dany and Jorah went to the market, and Jorah came up with a lame excuse to get his newest orders from Varys (his boss) by himself.

Quote

"Cakes, are they? I could not say, Princess." The knight bowed. "If you would pardon me for a time, I will seek out the captain and see if he has letters for us."

"Very well. I'll help you find him."

"There is no need for you to trouble yourself." Ser Jorah glanced away impatiently. "Enjoy the market. I will rejoin you when my business is concluded."

Curious, Dany thought as she watched him stride off through the throngs. She didn't see why she should not go with him.

Then while Jorah is gone, Dany wanders for half the morning, which is quite a while. And then they finally run into the wine merchant.

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They wandered for half the morning. She saw a beautiful feathered cloak from the Summer Isles, and took it for a gift. In return, she gave the merchant a silver medallion from her belt. That was how it was done among the Dothraki. A birdseller taught a green-and-red parrot to say her name, and Dany laughed again, yet still refused to take him. What would she do with a green-and-red parrot in a khalasar? She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. When Doreah looked longingly at a fertility charm at a magician's booth, Dany took that too and gave it to the handmaid, thinking that now she should find something for Irri and Jhiqui as well.

Turning a corner, they came upon a wine merchant offering thimble-sized cups of his wares to the passersby. "Sweet reds," he cried in fluent Dothraki, "I have sweet reds, from Lys and Volantis and the Arbor. Whites from Lys, Tyroshi pear brandy, firewine, pepperwine, the pale green nectars of Myr. Smokeberry browns and Andalish sours, I have them, I have them." He was a small man, slender and handsome, his flaxen hair curled and perfumed after the fashion of Lys. When Dany paused before his stall, he bowed low. "A taste for the khaleesi? I have a sweet red from Dorne, my lady, it sings of plums and cherries and rich dark oak. A cask, a cup, a swallow? One taste, and you will name your child after me."

...

"Rise," Dany commanded him. "I would still like to taste that summerwine you spoke of."

The man bounded to his feet. "That? Dornish swill. It is not worthy of a princess. I have a dry red from the Arbor, crisp and delectable. Please, let me give you a cask."

Khal Drogo's visits to the Free Cities had given him a taste for good wine, and Dany knew that such a noble vintage would please him. "You honor me, ser," she murmured sweetly.

"The honor is mine." The merchant rummaged about in the back of his stall and produced a small oaken cask. Burned into the wood was a cluster of grapes. "The Redwyne sigil," he said, pointing, "for the Arbor. There is no finer drink."

"Khal Drogo and I will share it together. Aggo, take this back to my litter, if you'd be so kind." The wineseller beamed as the Dothraki hefted the cask.

She did not realize that Ser Jorah had returned until she heard the knight say, "No." His voice was strange, brusque. "Aggo, put down that cask."

So after being separated for hours, Jorah just happens to return to Dany at the exact moment that she accepted a poison cask of wine, and he "rescues" her. That's some lucky timing there Jorah... After all, he said he would rejoin her after his business was concluded. But his business only consisted of finding one easily located man and reading a letter or two. It should not have taken half the morning for Jorah to return. And it would be a huge coincidence for him to return at that moment. We can infer that Jorah concluded his "business" fairly quickly and was probably following Dany pretty much the whole time, waiting for that moment to intercede.

And it is possible that this wine merchant was a "lone wolf" seeking a lordship, but I highly doubt it. LF told Ned that some drunk sellsword would likely botch the attempt and put the Dothraki on their guard.

Quote

Littlefinger shrugged. "Titles are cheap. The Faceless Men are expensive. If truth be told, I did the Targaryen girl more good than you with all your talk of honor. Let some sellsword drunk on visions of lordship try to kill her. Likely he'll make a botch of it, and afterward the Dothraki will be on their guard. If we'd sent a Faceless Man after her, she'd be as good as buried."

But obviously this isn't what happened. The wine merchant's plan was actually quite good. He meant to give Dany poisoned wine that she would only drink later on, with Drogo, once he was safely away. In fact, his plan is quite similar to a later assassination, carried out by a Faceless Man in training, Arya.

Quote

The kindly man was waiting for her at the House of Black and White, seated on the edge of the temple pool. The ugly girl sat next to him and put a coin on the lip of the pool between them. It was gold, with a dragon on one face and a king on the other.

"The golden dragon of Westeros," said the kindly man. "And how did you come by this? We are no thieves."

"It wasn't stealing. I took one of his, but I left him one of ours."

The kindly man understood. "And with that coin and the others in his purse, he paid a certain man. Soon after that man's heart gave out. Is that the way of it? Very sad." The priest picked up the coin and tossed it into the pool. "You have much and more to learn, but it may be you are not hopeless."

In fact, his plan was so good that he may have had trouble claiming credit and getting his lordship. It seems more likely, rather, that this assassin was hired by Varys and Illyrio directly. He may have even gotten the Arbor wine from Illyrio, who we know has plenty to spare.

Quote

Tyrion left the fat women to their loaves and kettles and went in search of the cellar where Illyrio had decanted him the night before. It was not hard to find. There was enough wine there to keep him drunk for a hundred years; sweet reds from the Reach and sour reds from Dorne, pale Pentoshi ambers, the green nectar of Myr, three score casks of Arbor gold, even wines from the fabled east, from Qarth and Yi Ti and Asshai by the Shadow. In the end, Tyrion chose a cask of strongwine marked as the private stock of Lord Runceford Redwyne, the grandfather of the present Lord of the Arbor. The taste of it was languorous and heady on the tongue, the color a purple so dark that it looked almost black in the dim-lit cellar. Tyrion filled a cup, and a flagon for good measure, and carried them up to the gardens to drink beneath those cherry trees he'd seen.

 

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On 8/6/2017 at 10:17 PM, cgrav said:

That's what made him a great pawn: Illyrio could divulge certain sensitive information to Viserys, trusting he wouldn't figure out that he was being manipulated.

I have to say I'm conflicted on this one. Due to the vague hints, I'm not sure if the specific prophecy was commissioned, or if they simply knew that some offspring-related prophecy would be given.

I'd say the latter. Dany wasn't pregnant when they said goodbye to Illyrio. Not being a fortune-teller I can't say for sure but I'd imagine that it's a lot easier to give a baby-specific prophecy to a woman who is pregnant at the time of her presentation to the Dosh Khaleen. If Dany had not been carrying Rhaego by the time they arrived she likely would have gotten a "will bear strong and fierce sons, and all will fall before them" outcome.

Granted, Illyrio could have hedged his bets, but I don't think it would benefit his plans for the baby to be proclaimed the future Stallion Who Mounts The World. If Drogo's got the promised Dothraki khal of khals coming, and the kid is going to conquer the entire world, what would be the point in rushing to Westeros? Drogo is already dragging his feet, as Illyrio mentions that the khal will not make a move until his son is born. Why make a move after during the perilous early years of childhood?

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

snip

The time lag is interesting, but it is just as likely that Varys sent Jorah a message that he would get his lands and titles back if he killed Dany himself. Then he spent hours shadowing her throughout the market, writhing in turmoil between his desire to regain his honor vs. his love for Dany. When he saw the exchange of wine, he put two and two together, made his choice and stepped in to save Dany.

Therefore, nothing was staged. There were at least two, and probably more, plans to kill Dany.

 

 

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The foretelling of TSWMTW prophecy for Drogo's son was (I think) set up from the beginning. The (definitely staged) assassination attempt was planned immediately after the conversation you quoted. Illyrio told Varys to delay, which Varys apparently deemed to be too difficult. Instead of delaying, in the very next chapter Varys informed Robert that Daenerys was pregnant so that Robert would both give his explicit permission to kill Dany, and so that Robert would publicly offer a lordship to any successful assassin, directly antagonizing Drogo and luring him to Westeros. Robert did not actually send assassins himself of course. That would be Varys' job.

Let's review the staged assassination. First, Dany and Jorah went to the market, and Jorah came up with a lame excuse to get his newest orders from Varys (his boss) by himself.

Then while Jorah is gone, Dany wanders for half the morning, which is quite a while. And then they finally run into the wine merchant.

So after being separated for hours, Jorah just happens to return to Dany at the exact moment that she accepted a poison cask of wine, and he "rescues" her. That's some lucky timing there Jorah... After all, he said he would rejoin her after his business was concluded. But his business only consisted of finding one easily located man and reading a letter or two. It should not have taken half the morning for Jorah to return. And it would be a huge coincidence for him to return at that moment. We can infer that Jorah concluded his "business" fairly quickly and was probably following Dany pretty much the whole time, waiting for that moment to intercede.

And it is possible that this wine merchant was a "lone wolf" seeking a lordship, but I highly doubt it. LF told Ned that some drunk sellsword would likely botch the attempt and put the Dothraki on their guard.

But obviously this isn't what happened. The wine merchant's plan was actually quite good. He meant to give Dany poisoned wine that she would only drink later on, with Drogo, once he was safely away. In fact, his plan is quite similar to a later assassination, carried out by a Faceless Man in training, Arya.

In fact, his plan was so good that he may have had trouble claiming credit and getting his lordship. It seems more likely, rather, that this assassin was hired by Varys and Illyrio directly. He may have even gotten the Arbor wine from Illyrio, who we know has plenty to spare.

 

So now Jorah was in on it too? Come on, don't you think he would told Dany that the assassination was staged if that were the case?

I don't think there's anything suspicious about the timing. From a Doylist perspective, it was just to build tension. I can think up a number of in-universe explanations though, if you prefer - it took a while before he found his contact, he had to sneak away to a private spot to read the letter, he was making his way back to Dany when he saw her talking to a suspicious vendor, then ran to catch up.

Moreover, if Varys and Illyrio just planned on hiring fake assassins, why would there be any need to involve Robert? It would have been much quicker with him. They could have dispatched a wineseller right then and there, without having to wait for Robert to issue an order.

Also, this is a shift from your previous position. Earlier, you said the assassination attempt was "the next step in the plan", and implied that the prophecy and the assassination was planned together, as a ruse to motivate Drogo to invade Westeros.

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