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Jon should bend his knees.

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It's very simple why Jon can't bend the knee. He has to be free to prepare for the Night King. If he subjects himself to Dany, she rules him and can send him where she likes. That would prove fatal, not just to the North but to Westeros. Even if Dany doesn't realize it, it's crucial that Jon stays in complete control of himself and the North

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1 hour ago, Gala said:

1) He's come to Dragonstone only for dragonglass: he suggested to his lords to go to Dany only after he received a raven from Sam. Before he didn't even consider going to Dany. He didn't have to give her nothing back. He just came to warn her and to get dragonglass, of course. Because, it is really childish to squable about the IT, when you soon won't have any kingdom to rule. Why else would he come if not to say the truth?

2) She hasn't, but her dragons were considered a fairytale by almost all the world too, no one believed. Until people saw them.

It might be justified for Dany to ask Jon to bend the knee, but Jon has the right not to. So far I see them as equals, probably, that's the whole point.

Her dragons were indeed consider to be a fairytale.. But everyone know that they were once alive even Maesters.. On the other hand Maesters disagree about the existence of the White Wlakers..

i don't want to argue if Dany or Jon were right, because I believe that none of them were wrong.. Daenerys offer her help and ask him to bend the knee, and Jon don't accept because he know that if he does he will probably loose the North..

Daenerys will make one more step closer to the Iron Throne, and then when she is close enough she will leave it and go north to face the Real Enemy.. She was prophecisied(omg..).. We saw what will happen in season 2 in the house of the undying..

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5 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Again - she didn't attack the Red Keep or KL at all! She listened to Jon and attacked an army in the field, just like back in Mereen she attacked no cities. just the Navy. As to the crime of even thinking idea of attacking the Red Keep, (which again she did not end up doing) the point remains that it is different from saying - which you did - that she wanted to kill everyone in Kings Landing.

You're ignoring my point. I'm not going to debate in circles with you about this. So I'll just supply my previous words: 

Yes, she says the Red Keep but it is in reference to their earlier conversation, as Tyrion makes clear in this scene. In that previous scene Tyrion explains that "if we turn the dragons loose, tens of thousands will die." Dany herself notes that she is "not here to be queen of the ashes" meaning she knows that attacking Cersei in the Red Keep means destruction not just of the Red Keep but on King's Landing.

When Dany asks Jon's advice on what to do he understands the repercussions of "just attacking the Red Keep" by saying that people will not love her if she "melts castles and burns cities." It is clear to everyone that attacking the Red Keep does not simply mean the Red Keep, but it involves collateral damage throughout King's Landing that will bring the city to ashes and kill tens of thousands of people. And although Dany seemed to believe that was unreasonable when she had other ways of claiming the throne, now that she doesn't she can't come to that conclusion on her own

5 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

When I talk about Dany Derangement Syndrome you exhibit the classic signs of it when  you make her responsible for every atrocity her enemies commit. First off the initial liberation was accomplished pretty quickly, and other than as a trade good the dragon's played little part in it. Secondly she did not leave for Westeros as soon as she could, she stayed to make it work, she tried conciliation, she engaged good councillors.

I'm sorry but the only derangement I see is your ability to pretend Dany did all of these things with planning, foresight, and good leadership. Liberating the cities was done by brute strength (Astapor she burned the slavers, Yunkai the Unsullied take the city by storming through the sewer). Not because she was a good ruler. As far as "staying to make things work" she clearly didn't do that in the cities she "liberated" as Yunkai ends up re-enslaving every man and the butcher king Cleon took over in Astapor. She does stick around in Meereen, but stubbornly refuses to learn from her mistakes and still thinks she can establish an entire new order by her will alone. Which leads to the establishment of the Sons of the Harpy and countless deaths. 

5 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

When she was taken away by Drogon and captured by the Dothraki she turned the table and established herself as supreme Khaleesi without Dragons, then used the Dothraki to help lift the seige of Mereen.

Again, through brute strength alone. She murders all of the Khals.

5 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

She burned a few ships, but captured most of them. And she left Daario AND the 2 thousand strong Second Sons with detailed orders to manage the transition to self rule of the Cities.

Dany had 8,000 Unsullied in Meereen and they couldn't keep the peace. The "detailed orders" that she leaves to the other cities is basically "don't fuck with me," but like I said previously now that she is gone and the threat isn't imminent there is no reason that peace will hold. The only reason we are even led to believe it is holding is because the show is done with that storyline and doesn't want to readdress it. 

6 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Do we know from our own history that reconstructing societies ravaged by slavery is difficult, and does not happen overnight?

I do. Dany does not seem to. 

6 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Varys, Tyrion, Missandei, Ser Barristen Selmy - all characters constructed as having a fairly solid moral core whilst also being highly intelligent and far from niave regard her record in Essos as grounds for believing totally in her.  

As I've said previously, this is a result of the show forcing the idea onto us that we should love Dany. Look all of these likeable characters support her, clearly she is doing the right thing and will make a good ruler. When her actions alone have not warranted such an assessment. The show is continually using artificial means like having Missandei speak for Dany's strength to show us why we should support Dany, while at the same time undermining those words with her lack of leadership, and, some argue, signs of madness. 

6 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Again she has used the dragons in battle twice (In Astapor Drogon burned the Slave master and some penants on a wall, that coup was fought by the unsullied on her orders.)

Her use of brute force doesn't always rely on the dragons. 

6 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

You simply ignore the the alliance building , her ability to attract and retain a top flight retinue of advisors, her ability to inspire fanatical devotion in her soldiers and the fact that aside from Jon she is the only leader to both express and take concrete steps to improve the welfare of the least advantaged

I don't ignore it. I've addressed it above. It isn't because of good leadership, it is because the show wants her to be the hero we are rooting for. So of course the most likeable and trustworthy members of the show flock to her. Her actions alone have not warranted their support however.

She once took steps to improve the welfare of the least advantaged. She once talked of "breaking the wheel" in Westeros, but now she is firmly one of the many spokes on the wheel that will dish out suffering to the people because of her own pride and entitlement. Even if you think that she wouldn't burn the people of King's Landing (which is utterly false because both she and Tyrion recognize that releasing the dragons on the Red Keep would kill tens of thousands of people), he desire to even siege the city would lead to the suffering of the poorest first. Who do you think will starve when she cuts off their food supply? Certainly not Cersei first. It will be the peasants in the street who die of starvation so Dany can sit her ass on that throne. Even further, she's willing to allow the White Walkers to descend on the North (and most likely the entire country) because her pride will not suffer Jon to title himself King in the North. Any notion Dany once had of "breaking the wheel" is completely gone, as she has become one of the spokes that helps crush the people on the ground. 

6 hours ago, Johan Wehtje said:

I don't know what standard you are holding her to, but in the world of the show and books the only real standard is the other alternatives to her - and in that short list only Jon really measures up.

I'm holding her up to her own standards. Just saying that "Cersei is crazy too" isn't enough to overlook the many faults and lack of leadership that Dany displays. 

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2 hours ago, Gala said:

It might be justified for Dany to ask Jon to bend the knee, but Jon has the right not to. So far I see them as equals, probably, that's the whole point.

Exactly. There is just so much strange hate.  Jon sucks he should bend the knee, or Dany is crazy she should stop asking. 

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1 minute ago, Lurid Jester said:

Exactly. There is just so much strange hate.  Jon sucks he should bend the knee, or Dany is crazy she should stop asking. 

It makes it hard to discuss something when people are so biased they can't make an argument past "jon is an idiot and should die" or something similar with dany.  I made a post earlier replying to someone saying jon is an idiot who is letting pride get in his way I said you could make the same exact argument about dany and I never got an answer

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Posted (edited)

47 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

You're ignoring my point.

Oh FFS! Are you even going to engage at all with the fact that  a) Dany did not express a wish to kill everyone in KL? b. She didn't do it?

Quote

Dany had 8,000 Unsullied in Meereen and they couldn't keep the peace.

There is little point in continuing this when you are this selective - or simply don't properly read the post you were replying to. In the show I watched Tyrion (The guy Dany chose) did establish peace once he got Yunkai and Astapor to stop funding the SOTH.  Besides that fact that you are simply going to ignore that yet again (just like with the kill everyone in Kings Landing charge) you got caught making a pretty wild exageration (Daario was hardy alone), and you are simply going to ignore the rest of the points, that after the Battle of Slavers Bay the Slavers power had been broken, the SOTH wiped out by the Dothraki, the fleets of the Masters destroyed or confiscated, and Dany had demonstrated that she now commanded the Dothraki as well (not all of who came with her to Westeros). 

Quote

Her use of brute force doesn't always rely on the dragons. 

It was you who was the one who said it did, not me - I am not the one who's making the argument that to be a good leader you have to eschew the use of force, you are. I am making the opposite argument - that when you have tried the alternatives some enemies do need to be confronted with force. You are the one claiming that she never tried the alternatives. 

If your overall point is that Dany is a terrible leader because everything she is doing is not instantly totally successful and done with perfect prescience and without any force then I think it's idiotic. Your argument about artificiality is a strange one - because the opinion of Tyrion et al of her is one we see being formed in response to what she does, whereas you make it seem as if it's happening in a vacuum. And you just ignore the fact that she is operating against intelligent, capable and well rescourced adversaries with very different aims from hers.

Edited by Johan Wehtje
Typo

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12 minutes ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Oh FFS! Are you even going to engage at all with the fact that :Dany did not express a wish to kill everyone in KL?  

Dany wanted to go and burn the Red Keep to finish this war...

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On 8/9/2017 at 5:13 PM, Lurid Jester said:

Well technically going down on one knee for the traditional kneeling would require both knees be bent. 

Otherwise it looks silly. 

touché!

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1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

Exactly. There is just so much strange hate.  Jon sucks he should bend the knee, or Dany is crazy she should stop asking. 

It really is like Dems vs Repubs and anything one side says does is perfect in the opinions of their base, anything the other side says or does is beyond reproach, and from the perspective of the other base, it's vice versa.

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1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Oh FFS! Are you even going to engage at all with the fact that  a) Dany did not express a wish to kill everyone in KL?

No, because (as I said above many times) she knew that attacking KL would kill the people of the city and killing tens of thousands of people. So this isn't true. 

1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

b. She didn't do it?

She didn't do it because Jon advised her not to. The fact that she had to ask him (after having seemingly already been convinced by Tyrion that killing tens of thousands of people is a bad idea) is enough to show that she doesn't care about the people and will use brute force to get what she wants just like anyone else. 

1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

There is little point in continuing this when you are this selective - or simply don't properly read the post you were replying to. In the show I watched Tyrion (The guy Dany chose) did establish peace once he got Yunkai and Astapor to stop funding the SOTH

This is Tyrion's diplomatic skill, not Dany's. So again, no leadership from Dany. 

1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Besides that fact that you are simply going to ignore that yet again (just like with the kill everyone in Kings Landing charge) you got caught making a pretty wild exageration (Daario was hardy alone),

Hardly a pretty wild exaggeration. It's common for people to talk about troops by referring to their commander, please stop trying to make it seem like I'm being ridiculous here when you cut out and ignored all of my post except for three lines.

1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

and you are simply going to ignore the rest of the points, that after the Battle of Slavers Bay the Slavers power had been broken, the SOTH wiped out by the Dothraki, the fleets of the Masters destroyed or confiscated, and Dany had demonstrated that she now commanded the Dothraki as well (not all of who came with her to Westeros). 

You're making my point for me, you just don't see it. After the battle, Dany defeated the SOTH with force, then burned their ships. All examples of Dany failing at diplomacy and having to resort to brute force. Again, no leadership. 

 

1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

It was you who was the one who said it did, not me - I am not the one who's making the argument that to be a good leader you have to eschew the use of force, you are.

No I didn't. I said that Dany would be nothing without her Dragons. Which is true. Without her dragons she would have been among the Dosh Khaleen. Without her dragons she would have no giant slave army. Without her dragons no one would be following her. This is not saying the same thing as saying that Dany exhibits force by other means than her dragons. Two separate points.

And I am not saying that to be a good leader you need to eschew the use of force, I am saying that Dany has shown she is good at ordering destruction and death, but she has done nothing to show that Jon should believe she would be capable or deserving to rule the Seven Kingdoms. Because, as we saw from Robert, being a good conqueror does not make you a good leader. And Dany has shown no signs of being a good diplomat, politician, or queen. A conqueror and commander, sure you can make that argument. 

1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

If your overall point is that Dany is a terrible leader because everything she is doing is not instantly totally successful and done with perfect prescience and without any force then I think it's idiotic

This is a strawman, so I'm not going to address it. 

1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

Your argument about artificiality is a strange one - because the opinion of Tyrion et al of her is one we see being formed in response to what she does, whereas you make it seem as if it's happening in a vacuum.

My whole point is that it is not formed in response to what she does, it is formed into response of the writers telling us the type of person she is while never showing us those actions from her herself. 

1 hour ago, Johan Wehtje said:

And you just ignore the fact that she is operating against intelligent, capable and well rescourced adversaries with very different aims from hers.

Everyone is. I don't understand what point you're trying to make with this. 

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The subject matter at hand is a pretty good dissection of leadership.  While the question is whether Jon should kneel, many posts end up arguing who is the better leader.  Leadership can be reduced, in a simple fashion, to a chi square with authoritarian (favoring strict obedience) or participatory (seeking input) and good or bad so the choices could be:
-good authoritarian - maybe Stannis

-bad authoritarian - Joffrey for example, Roose, Ramsay

-good participatory - Ned, Doran

-bad participatory - someone who seeks input but can never reach decisions, not sure the show has had one, Robert Baratheon?

The show seems to indicate that Dany is sliding into bad authoritarian (I am not here to murder but take my side or die!) and Jon whose Winterfell Councils look democratic, tends to participatory.  Authoritarian and participatory are points on a scale and far ends could be dictatorships and flourishing democracies. It also depends on the situation at hand. A community in peril may favor good authoritarian, if the leader has come through in the past. An established community that is doing well may prefer participatory.  

For the tl,dr verson, Jon should not kneel because his style tends to be participatory. 

Edited by lakin1013

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6 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

The subject matter at hand is a pretty good dissection of leadership.  While the question is whether Jon should kneel, many posts end up arguing who is the better leader.  Leadership can be reduced, in a simple fashion, to a chi square with authoritarian (favoring strict obedience) or participatory (seeking input) and good or bad so the choices could be:
-good authoritarian - maybe Stannis

-bad authoritarian - Joffrey for example, Roose, Ramsay

-good participatory - Ned, Doran

-bad participatory - someone who seeks input but can never reach decisions, not sure the show has had one, Robert Baratheon?

The show seems to indicate that Dany is sliding into bad authoritarian (I am not here to murder but take my side or die!) and Jon whose Winterfell Councils look democratic, tends to participatory.  Authoritarian and participatory are points on a scale and far ends could be dictatorships and flourishing democracies. It also depends on the situation at hand. A community in peril may favor good authoritarian, if the leader has come through in the past. An established community that is doing well may prefer participatory.  

For the tl,dr verson, Jon should not kneel because his style tends to be participatory. 

I would count Jon as good authoritarian, the classic benevolent dictator.  He makes his decisions with little input from others, and no one has ever swayed his decisions by debating them.  You're on his bus or you're walkin'

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9 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Martin seems to agree with me, though he just refers to Berric as a wight.

Martin's comments

The Fire wights are no longer human. They aren't a happy ending. Hell, Berric caused his sword to burst into flame by coating it with his blood.  

Maybe the show and book will call them something else.  Who knows. But Martin calls them wights.  The show is probably going to diminish their more grisly nature. They removed LSH after all.

We do have to be careful in quoting from the asoiaf wiki.  It is edited by users, not Martin himself.  However if Martin intended anyone who has been resurrected to be considered a Wight, it would be stupid of him not to put it in the books somewhere.  It's such a minor point though, really.

Much more interesting is the question of whether the show really did eliminate Lady Stoneheart.  Just this am my husband saw a video commentary pointing out a figure in the background of Arya and Brienne's scene that looks very much like it could be LSH.  I started a thread on that topic.  Hopefully it will be approved.

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27 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

 

The show seems to indicate that Dany is sliding into bad authoritarian (I am not here to murder but take my side or die!) and Jon whose Winterfell Councils look democratic, tends to participatory.  Authoritarian and participatory are points on a scale and far ends could be dictatorships and flourishing democracies. It also depends on the situation at hand. A community in peril may favor good authoritarian, if the leader has come through in the past. An established community that is doing well may prefer participatory.  

For the tl,dr verson, Jon should not kneel because his style tends to be participatory. 

How they any different than Dany's meetings. Both ask for advice from their advisors, Both make the final decisions. There is literally no difference between the two.

Any Dany is given traitors, you know people that were on her side but betrayed her and fought against her, the chance to live and not be executed the way most traitors are in this world, including people in the nights watch who refuse to follow their commander's orders.

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On 8/8/2017 at 4:28 AM, Attitude said:

I think there is a different reason why this topic keeps coming up; 

 

  Hide contents

Jon is the son of rhaegar (confirmed by HBO). I think his legitimacy will be proven at some point, which makes him the 'rightful heir' before Daenerys (son of heir goes before sister of heir). Which will resulting in Dany having to 'bend the knee'. I think that's the reason why she has mentioned it three (or 2?) times already [/spoi

I agree with this, but I also think a political marriage is possible, since Dany herself brought it up to Daaryo Nahars.  Keep wondering how the showrunners will treat this  lineage news, especially since Bran has told no one yet. Do they have Dany and Jon marry, then Jon returns to WF, only to find out he's married his auntie? Does he bend the knee, then return to WF to be shunned by the Lords of the North for doing it, and then Bran tells him he's a Targaryen? Does he refuse to bend the knee, wear out Dany's patience and get kicked out, then Bran drops the bombshell or Does Dany drop the knee bending demand for alliance with the north to defeat Cersei? 

 

And how dose Dany take this news? why should she believe any of it?

There are a lot of options here, and none of these contemplate the Walkers coming south of the wall before the next battle in the south even arrives, or the fact that we con;t have enough episodes left to do this bombshell and its aftermath proper justice in the story telling.  

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On 8/8/2017 at 4:43 PM, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I think this is exactly what is going to happen... (the marriage). But they had to build some tension, which I think makes some sense...

THIS

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10 hours ago, xander_blackfyre said:

Ok this thought hit me last night Dany fashions herself as the true Queen of the 7 kingdoms right? In her long winded introduction Missandei said one of Dany's titles was protector of the 7 kingdoms correct?  Well if she was the true queen that she fashions herself to be would she shouldn't her first priority be to PROTECT the 7 Kingdoms, deal with the great threat to the realm.  Nope her first priority to make sure everyone know she's the baddest b***h.

Jon has said it himself he is not her enemy, but she seems to see him as one, Jon seem to be the true protector of the realm.  He came to get help to save the realm she sits there squabbling over politics and trying to put Jon and anyone else in their place.  He wants to put the politics aside for now and deal with the problem, deal with who bends the knee to who after the greater threat to the realm is neutralized, that is what a true ruler would do.  Its like the house is burning down Jon is saying to her lets put out the fire while Dany is arguing about what she wants to do with the spare bedroom.

One more thing along the line of putting people in their place, or should I say she wants to put men in their place.  Yes I am going there I thought back, to her dealing with people and she definitely has a different attitude when she is dealing with men as opposed to women.  Just look at the throne room scene in Mereen with Theon and Yara, when she thought it was Theon coming to ask her help to get the Iron Islands back she had a bit of an attitude but then when she finds out it it Yara's claim she all of a sudden perks up and even loosens up.  She never asked for Yara to bend the knee she shook her hand, now it was not shown but do you think that Olenna was asked to bend the knee(not like she would have done it anyway), what about Ellaria do you think she was asked?  She never asked Jon she demanded it.

Dany was looking to assert dominance from the moment Jon set foot on Dragonstone as displayed by all the guards and that long long long introduction, and no doubt the dragons flying around, it just screams look and listen I am your superior.  Jon on the other hand comes with the attitude of lets talk ruler to ruler, I am not here on behalf on myself but on behalf of all the people of westeros(allies, friends, and enemies even if they if they know it or not) and beyond the wall, I don't want your help for myself but for everyone, we need each others help. 

WELL SAID!!  It is an example of how hypocritical her character has become.  At first she was portrayed as a gentle, caring person.  Remember Jorah telling her she had a tender heart?  Now, even knowing the threat from the WW is real, she is more concerned about her throne than the welfare of human kind.  What would Jorah say to her now I wonder?  What really gets me is that her advisors seem to be blind to it as well.  Although they may be coming around.  I am wondering if that preview for next week where Varys says we have to make her listen is an indication of that.

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11 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Jon was not given her full summons. Tyrion left the "bend the knee" bit out on purpose. He disrespected Jon, lied to him because he felt him weak and easy to fool, giving Dany an automatic foothold on Westeros once Jon, if he came, through the North.

Yes, you are right about the summons, I forgot that.  I know they didn't read it in its entirety on the show, but obviously if it had said something about bending the knee it would have been mentioned.

I disagree that Tyrion thinks Jon is weak.  He's doing everything for Dany's benefit, which is what a loyal advisor does and even though he did disrespect him by not being fully truthful about Dany's summons, he does like and respect Jon.  He has said so, and it is evident in the way he talks to Jon.

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I think Jon is right. He shouldn't bend the knee so easily. She keeps asking him to drop his pride  but what about her pride? Her ego and her obsession about bending the knee are so ridiculous that even after Jon proved to her the white walkers are real and are coming she still will only help if he kneels. He's trying to make it clear to everyone that their mission to make her the queen isn't important at the moment and it won't matter who's on the throne if they're all dead. He'd be sending a powerful message to everyone about letting go of pride and working together but she's not getting it

I think she's going a little crazy with power honestly

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2 hours ago, El Guapo said:

How they any different than Dany's meetings. Both ask for advice from their advisors, Both make the final decisions. There is literally no difference between the two.

Any Dany is given traitors, you know people that were on her side but betrayed her and fought against her, the chance to live and not be executed the way most traitors are in this world, including people in the nights watch who refuse to follow their commander's orders.

I agree with you regarding Dany's actions in the past.  She listened to Tyrion, Jorah, Missendei, and Greyworm.  BUT the trailer for ep 5 show us 2 things: Viserys telling Tyrion that he has to get her to listen and we see Dany telling townspeople that she is not a killer, but they either join her or die.  These are not good things that are forcing Dany's leadership to become strident and demanding.  I realize that things are not going well for her and she has experienced some losses but as long as she thinks she is entitled to rule, that is not going to work for her. 

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