purple-eyes

Robert rebellion was based on a lie, by whom?

45 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

The problem is that if Lyanna simply disappeared mysteriously, how did people think it was Rhaegar kidnapped her? 

somebody must have seen R and L were together and also this person had to see something to decide it was a kidnapping not a voluntarily eloping. 

History book said that Rhaegar and his companions carried off Lyanna at the location of around 10 leagues outside Harrenhal. 

This sounds like an account from witness. 

 

It is possible that Lyanna was last seen near harrenhal, and disappeared after that. If someone indeed saw them together, they must have assumed it was a kidnapping. Or maybe after the tourney of harrenhal, Rhaegar was just assumed to be the perpetrator. 

It is also possible that someone saw them on their way to Dorne, and not near harrenhal.

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15 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

It is possible that Lyanna was last seen near harrenhal, and disappeared after that. If someone indeed saw them together, they must have assumed it was a kidnapping. Or maybe after the tourney of harrenhal, Rhaegar was just assumed to be the perpetrator. 

It is also possible that someone saw them on their way to Dorne, and not near harrenhal.

For the time being, we just don't have enough verified information, but I agree, most assumed it was Rhaegar because of the tourney at harrenhal.  It wasn't like they were sharing a drink at the after party or just shared an innocent dance.  In front of the whole crowd of people he broke tradition and gave the tournament gift to a woman who wasn't his wife.  It was pretty blasphemous.  

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This is my first post here and I want to salute you all!  

This is a conversation between Maester Marwyn and Sam Tarly from A Feast of Crows, the last Samwell POV:

“Marwyn give him a smile, grim with the juice of the reddish leaves draining his teeth.

- Who do you think killed all the dragons last time? The ungroomed dragonslayers armed with swords?... In the world that is built by the Citadel there is no place for the wizards, prophecies or glass candles and even less for the dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to dispel his life on the Wall, when it would have been right to be raised to the rank of Arhimaester. Because of his blood! They could not trust him....”

I know it's not the best translation, I don't have the English version, sorry.

I think that the maesters were the ones who lied especially Grand Maester Pycelle. If House Stark would have found out about the marriage, Brandon Hothead Stark would not have gone at King's Landing yelling after Rhaegar. I think that Rickard Stark would have been delighted that his daughter could have become queen.

Edited by loverofcats

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14 hours ago, loverofcats said:

This is my first post here and I want to salute you all!  

This is a conversation between Maester Marwyn and Sam Tarly from A Feast of Crows, the last Samwell POV:

“Marwyn give him a smile, grim with the juice of the reddish leaves draining his teeth.

- Who do you think killed all the dragons last time? The ungroomed dragonslayers armed with swords?... In the world that is built by the Citadel there is no place for the wizards, prophecies or glass candles and even less for the dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to dispel his life on the Wall, when it would have been right to be raised to the rank of Arhimaester. Because of his blood! They could not trust him....”

I know it's not the best translation, I don't have the English version, sorry.

I think that the maesters were the ones who lied especially Grand Maester Pycelle. If House Stark would have found out about the marriage, Brandon Hothead Stark would not have gone at King's Landing yelling after Rhaegar. I think that Rickard Stark would have been delighted that his daughter could have become queen.

Very good!

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On 9/11/2017 at 1:55 PM, loverofcats said:

This is my first post here and I want to salute you all!  

This is a conversation between Maester Marwyn and Sam Tarly from A Feast of Crows, the last Samwell POV:

“Marwyn give him a smile, grim with the juice of the reddish leaves draining his teeth.

- Who do you think killed all the dragons last time? The ungroomed dragonslayers armed with swords?... In the world that is built by the Citadel there is no place for the wizards, prophecies or glass candles and even less for the dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to dispel his life on the Wall, when it would have been right to be raised to the rank of Arhimaester. Because of his blood! They could not trust him....”

I know it's not the best translation, I don't have the English version, sorry.

I think that the maesters were the ones who lied especially Grand Maester Pycelle. If House Stark would have found out about the marriage, Brandon Hothead Stark would not have gone at King's Landing yelling after Rhaegar. I think that Rickard Stark would have been delighted that his daughter could have become queen.

Great idea. 

Here is a full blown theory that lays out a case for exactly what you are suggesting. That is was the Maesters who told the lie. Basically, the Targs wanted to bring back dragons and the wedding of Aerys and Rhaella made this possible. So they were the ones responsible for all of her still births, potentially for the tragedy at summer hall, for convincing lord Rickard of Southrkn ambitions and for telling Branden that Lyanna has been kidnapped. And since they control the raven network.... 

if all this is true, we may find out Aerys was paranoid for a reason. Are you really paranoid if everyone is out to get you? 

https://weirwoodleviathan.wordpress.com/2016/02/03/vii-the-wedding-of-ice-and-fire/

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14 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Are you really paranoid if everyone is out to get you? 

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. // Joseph Heller.

Edited by MinscS2

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. // Joseph Heller.

thats the quote! 

 

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On 9/12/2017 at 6:25 AM, loverofcats said:

This is my first post here and I want to salute you all!  

This is a conversation between Maester Marwyn and Sam Tarly from A Feast of Crows, the last Samwell POV:

“Marwyn give him a smile, grim with the juice of the reddish leaves draining his teeth.

- Who do you think killed all the dragons last time? The ungroomed dragonslayers armed with swords?... In the world that is built by the Citadel there is no place for the wizards, prophecies or glass candles and even less for the dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to dispel his life on the Wall, when it would have been right to be raised to the rank of Arhimaester. Because of his blood! They could not trust him....”

I know it's not the best translation, I don't have the English version, sorry.

I think that the maesters were the ones who lied especially Grand Maester Pycelle. If House Stark would have found out about the marriage, Brandon Hothead Stark would not have gone at King's Landing yelling after Rhaegar. I think that Rickard Stark would have been delighted that his daughter could have become queen.

You don't need to know the truth to make something a lie. The maesters can be known to lie/conceal/cover up - including the maester that annulled a marriage then married Lyanna and Rhaegar. Based on Marwyn the Archmaester's comments they grey maesters don't want magic in the world, conspiring to defeat all dragons - whether real or Targaryen.

To perpetuate a lie about a crown prince observe how well politicians and propaganda go about it. Who benefits from it? The Iron Bank, there's money to be made in warfare. The Cheesemonger Magister Illyrio grows fat on the coffers given to him to provide produce/services to Westeros. Varys is in league with him.

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5 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

You don't need to know the truth to make something a lie. The maesters can be known to lie/conceal/cover up - including the maester that annulled a marriage then married Lyanna and Rhaegar. Based on Marwyn the Archmaester's comments they grey maesters don't want magic in the world, conspiring to defeat all dragons - whether real or Targaryen.

To perpetuate a lie about a crown prince observe how well politicians and propaganda go about it. Who benefits from it? The Iron Bank, there's money to be made in warfare. The Cheesemonger Magister Illyrio grows fat on the coffers given to him to provide produce/services to Westeros. Varys is in league with him.

Wasn't it the high septon who annuled the marriage?

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On 9/9/2017 at 1:47 AM, Loge said:

It wasn't a lie. In a clan-based society, the girl's consent doesn't matter. Her family decides who she gets to sleep with. So, while not rape by modern standards, it was by medieval. OK, it wasn't as Rhaegar actually married her. But nobody knows that. 

And of course, it wasn't Rhaegar and Lyanna eloping that started the war, it was Aerys killing Ned Stark's father and older brother and demanding that Jon Arryn hand over Ned as well. 

True a girl's consent didn't matter, however, it was still Robert's lie about her being abducted and raped. 

If everyone believed she'd gone willingly, even though she was technically already Robert's "soon-to-be-chattel", Brandon might never have gathered his "boys" to go down and challenge Rhaegar. 

Or, they (Brandon & his boys) did know, and put Robert's shame (Rhaegar stealing his betrothed), ahead of Lyanna's happiness anyway, and publicly went with the lie to make their claim more acceptable to the general population, especially in the North, (which is entirely believable.) 

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On 9/9/2017 at 3:47 AM, Loge said:

It wasn't a lie. In a clan-based society, the girl's consent doesn't matter. Her family decides who she gets to sleep with. So, while not rape by modern standards, it was by medieval. OK, it wasn't as Rhaegar actually married her. But nobody knows that. 

And of course, it wasn't Rhaegar and Lyanna eloping that started the war, it was Aerys killing Ned Stark's father and older brother and demanding that Jon Arryn hand over Ned as well. 

Nobody knows because the information was deliberately withheld, which in this situation is tantamount to a lie. 

 

The rebellion was precipitated by the Mad Ling killing lords and wanting to kill more. But he didn't kill random ones, did he? Or he did, but the specific domino effect leading to the calling of the banners and Robert's Rebellion consisted of a group of interconnected lords he killed and wanted to kill. It wasn't Ser Whats-It from Dorne and Ser Whos-It from I-Don't-Give-A-Darn. It was a collection of people (Starks and Bobby B.) directly tied to Lyanna, all of whom demanded or could be expected to demand she be returned from her presumed abduction. Coincidence? I think not. 

All that, plus for Ned and Robert definitely and presumably many other people the fight was directly about retrieving Lyanna and not about the second-order issue of a king's right to burn lords alive for no good reason. 

I find the idea that the war was about wanting to kill lords but not about the underlying issue that caused Starks to ride South and lose their lives incomprehensible. It's like saying Britain and France didn't declare war on Germany for invading Poland in WWII, but rather for Germany refusing to leave Poland, or something. What? 

Edited by darmody

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On 9/9/2017 at 9:56 AM, mankytoes said:

In any case, you could say Robert's rebellion was caused by a lie- as in Brandon demanded combat because he thought Lyanna was abducted, which caused his and Rickard's deaths, which caused the demand for Ned and Robert's head, which caused Jon Arryn's rebellion (as I've always thought it should be called). But it wasn't really based on a lie.

It was caused by but not based on a lie? That distinction is too subtle for me. 

In any case, Robert ended up killing the crown prince, winning the war with everyone's help, and sitting the Iron Throne at the end. And all along, for him at least, it was about getting Lyanna back, in addition to not losing his head. And the darn thing is named after him. The "based on" part didn't end for him the moment Lord Stark was roasted. 

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On 9/9/2017 at 8:03 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

So making Jon a mary sue super-secret heir to the Iron Throne and the best action hero who ever action heroed is somehow 'better than most writers'. Seems you're easily impressed.

Say one thing for the show, despite its drifting into fan-fic territory, Jon is consistently depicted as a dumbass who screws everything up nearly all the time. He fails upward, surely, but who'd write a Mary Sue who so consistently does the stupidest thing possible, and is always being aced-out by one character or another. If it's not his little half-sister-cousin, it's the Night King or Dany Dragonmother or Cersei the Dread or Ramsey the Ridiculous. 

 

Remember that depiction of Ned Stark at the theater in Bravos? That's pretty much Jon, except Jon's not a schemer and is a good guy. Plus, he's handsome and a good fighter. Otherwise he may as well have that scrunched-up face, tongue sticking out, farting all over the place. 

He has plot armor, for sure. But any awesomeness the audience may sense in him weathering a storm of arrows or emerging from a frozen lake is more than balanced by the fact that his stupidity landed him there. He charged an entire army by himself after his brother was already dead and couldn't be saved. They had to have Tyrion admit to the audience that he was being a dummy on the Wight Hunt. 

All that, plus he's actually smarter than he used to be. Or at least less whiney and naive. We've seen him grow in leadership ability. 

You're out of line, calling him a Mary Sue. Give credit where credit is due. I'm all for show-bashing, but Game of Thrones has stuck dutifully by the theme of "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

Not all show pets who experience unearned success are Marty Stus, just as not all implausible interventions are deus ex machines. 

Edited by darmody

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On 9/9/2017 at 4:41 PM, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Nice post, let me give a look at our suspects.

 

Possible, this is really possible, at least in the books.

 

Very unlikely.

I don't think Lyanna needed to say anything to Robert, it's not as if they had a "relationship". Rickard promised Lyanna to Robert, but Robert would not "own" her until they married. The only person Lyanna needed to say something was her father.

 

Also, despite his twisted sense of honor, i don't believe Robert would do such a thing. If Robert wanted to do something, he would bring his discontent to Rickard Stark, the man who promised his own daughter to him, not Brandon Stark. Brandon was the heir to Winterfell, but it was Rickard who had the last word in anything regarding his family.

 

This is very unlikely as well. Those two had a reputation of being good people before they decided to hook up, it seems they allowed love(or prophecy?) to guide them, but this is all we know for now. Everything regarding how they planned(or not planned) their elopment is a mystery, we gonna have to wait on George for this one(i know, it hurts me to say this)

 

 

However, I would like to nominate another character, i believe the lies came from somewhere else, and since we are just theorizing, i think it's fine.

Bear in mind that i don't have anything to support any of this, it's pure speculation, but i always thought that something was wrong with this guy.

And by this guy, i mean...Ethan Glover.

I always thought it was very strange that Ethan Glover was the only one who survived while Aerys killed all the others(including Ethan's father), and the first name Catelyn mentioned when she remembered those who went with Brandon to King's Landing, was Ethan's. George clearly wanted this guy to be important in some form, otherwise, why allow him to live only for him to die at the Tower of Joy later?

My theory is this: I believe Ethan Glover was in love with Lyanna Stark, he was Brandon's squire, and would have been close with the Starks while he was at Winterfell.

They say Brandon heard about Lyanna's abduction, but from who? and who saw this? i think the person holding all these secrets is Ethan Glover. I don't know exactly how(obviously), but Ethan did know(saw?) that Lyanna run away with Rhaegar, and if Ethan loved her, he would have hated Rhaegar to death.

I believe Ethan was the one who told Brandon that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister, so Rhaegar would have to pay for stealing something Ethan wanted. And if Ethan told something like this to Brandon, it means he was not a honorable person, if anything, he was ready to do dishonorable things to get what he wanted. How he survived in King's Landing is a puzzle to me, but something tells me he made a deal with "someone" in King's Landing, and told them things they might have wanted to know, and that's probably how he was able to survive.

Another thing that i find curious is that he accompanied Ned to the Tower of Joy, did Ned ask Ethan to go with him? i don't think so, i believe Ethan wanted to go(by obvious reasons).

His later death at the Tower of Joy by the hands of the Kingsguards could be seen as justice if this is true.

What you think of my theory? again, i have nothing to support it, only my suspicions?

 

That's interesting and all, but it would still be a lie for Rhaegar and Lyanna to tell no one she went away willingly, and that they were married. 

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

Say one thing for the show, despite its drifting into fan-fic territory, Jon is consistently depicted as a dumbass who screws everything up nearly all the time. He fails upward, surely, but who'd write a Mary Sue who so consistently does the stupidest thing possible, and is always being aced-out by one character or another. If it's not his little half-sister-cousin, it's the Night King or Dany Dragonmother or Cersei the Dread or Ramsey the Ridiculous. 

 

Remember that depiction of Ned Stark at the theater in Bravos? That's pretty much Jon, except Jon's not a schemer and is a good guy. Plus, he's handsome and a good fighter. Otherwise he may as well have that scrunched-up face, tongue sticking out, farting all over the place. 

He has plot armor, for sure. But any awesomeness the audience may sense in him weathering a storm of arrows or emerging from a frozen lake is more than balanced by the fact that his stupidity landed him there. He charged an entire army by himself after his brother was already dead and couldn't be saved. They had to have Tyrion admit to the audience that he was being a dummy on the Wight Hunt. 

All that, plus he's actually smarter than he used to be. Or at least less whiney and naive. We've seen him grow in leadership ability. 

You're out of line, calling him a Mary Sue. Give credit where credit is due. I'm all for show-bashing, but Game of Thrones has stuck dutifully by the theme of "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

Not all show pets who experience unearned success are Marty Stus, just as not all implausible interventions are deus ex machines. 

Actually, the Braavos play Ned is Jon! Nice spot!

But nah, I think the amount the universe bails Jon out is beyond bad writing. It's what TV Tropes calls a Black Hole Sue: The universe revolves around him, everyone talks about him, the good guys suck his pecker, the EVHUL guys are the only ones to raise (usually legit) criticisms and are depicted as even more EVHUL for doing so, etc, etc.

It's beyond egregious, but hey, it's not Euron's teleporting fleet and rocker clothes.

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On 9/9/2017 at 6:01 AM, Beardy the Wildling said:

All right, R + L = J is almost certainly true, as even GRRM is hamfisted in its foreshadowing. But why is there a need for Jon to be legitimate? Unlike the show, the books don't make Jon out to be the perfect action hero mary sue protagonist bailed out by five Deus ex Machinas a season.

Because it makes Jon king. The lowest main character in the series who couldn't even take the name of a main House was actually the byproduct of the catalyst that began the most important war in Westeros in 300 years and ousted the longstanding dynsasty and that same character arose from nothing to being the rightful king of the whole country. 

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On 9/11/2017 at 9:46 AM, Robert Baratheon's hammer said:

How is it a lie if Lyanna was betrothed to Robert? Robert and the North would have still rebelled even if they were in love. 

Robert would have never rebelled. Yes Lyanna was bethrothed to Robert, but Aery's was king and Rheagar was the crown prince. Robert and Ned still didn't rebel until after there was nothing left to lose because they were marked for death. 

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6 hours ago, lancerman said:

Because it makes Jon king. The lowest main character in the series who couldn't even take the name of a main House was actually the byproduct of the catalyst that began the most important war in Westeros in 300 years and ousted the longstanding dynsasty and that same character arose from nothing to being the rightful king of the whole country. 

One: Lowest main character my arse. Jon was raised alongside his cousins as one of Ned Stark's own, he regularly acted like a spoilt idiot both in the show and in the early books pre-character development. In terms of how he was treated by his family, Sam was worse off than him.

And honestly, if Jon rises to power not because of his actions but just a contrivance of who he is, it goes against his entire arc. His rise to prominence in the Night's Watch shows him that it doesn't matter who he is, but what he does with his time. That's kind of undermined by going 'but who you are does matter lol you're secretly the king aren't you happy lol'?

I'm also somewhat confused as to why you think Jon being king is inherently good and satisfying, especially in the show verse. In the show verse, Jon's a bloody moron. He doesn't deserve any of the lucky breaks the universe throws at him, yet it happens anyway. Once again, undermining the whole 'not who you are, but what you do' theme because obviously, to the universe, it does matter that he's a Michael Bay invincible action hero.

But hey, what do I know, I'm not an emmy-winning writer, and themes are for eighth-grade book reports.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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8 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

One: Lowest main character my arse. Jon was raised alongside his cousins as one of Ned Stark's own, he regularly acted like a spoilt idiot both in the show and in the early books pre-character development. In terms of how he was treated by his family, Sam was worse off than him.

And honestly, if Jon rises to power not because of his actions but just a contrivance of who he is, it goes against his entire arc. His rise to prominence in the Night's Watch shows him that it doesn't matter who he is, but what he does with his time. That's kind of undermined by going 'but who you are does matter lol you're secretly the king aren't you happy lol'?

I'm also somewhat confused as to why you think Jon being king is inherently good and satisfying, especially in the show verse. In the show verse, Jon's a bloody moron. He doesn't deserve any of the lucky breaks the universe throws at him, yet it happens anyway. Once again, undermining the whole 'not who you are, but what you do' theme because obviously, to the universe, it does matter that he's a Michael Bay invincible action hero.

But hey, what do I know, I'm not an emmy-winning writer, and themes are for eighth-grade book reports.

Does Sam count as a main character?

Let's assume he does. He's the only main character who you could put near Jon in terms of any type of ranking

Edited by lancerman

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