snow is the man

When jon became lord commander who put the bird in the...

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5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I recommend reading A Song For Lya. In that story, the people who are in the process of joining the hive mind of the Greeshka walk around ringing bells constantly, and the sound of the bells causes other telepaths (like Lya aka Lyanna 1.0) to be temporarily connected to the Greeshka as well. So sound is a powerful medium for telepathic connections. And in asoiaf, it appears that GRRM has done something very similar with animals, specifically the presence and howling of the direwolves (like in the scene with Bran's assassin when the howling drives Cat insane to the point where she requests the wolves all be killed to make them stop) and the presence and cawing of Mormont's raven.

And yes, of course there was ample cause for a mutiny anyways. GRRM likes to obfuscate these things. Otherwise the influence of the raven would be super obvious. But it is pretty clear that the raven telepathically influenced the NW election vote (based on the details of the final tally, the votes of people who weren't even in the room were switched to Jon by the people voting for them as proxies which is absurd) and so it is very possible that it influenced the mutiny too. And keep in mind that Sam strangely blacks out during the mutiny and then runs off with Gilly as a result (because Grenn was unable to make Sam run away with them), and this was the key to allowing Bran through the wall so he could make it north to Bloodraven. In other words, the exact scenario and result of the mutiny was just way too convenient for BR's plan for it to be a coincidence, and we know BR was there skinchanging the raven anyways.

You are right to be skeptical, but I highly recommend watching the PJ vid. :D 

We don't know Bloodraven was skinchanging the raven. That's one theory, and not one I'm a big fan of. Mormont's raven is amusing and annoying, so I much prefer the idea that this is its own character.

Those bells you mentioned remind me of a song. Does anyone plug their ears in the story you mentioned? Some of the lyrics:

Quote

The bells are ringing
The song they're singing
The sound is bringing the people 'round
They hear the instructions 
They follow directions
They travel great distances to the sound

...

They are persuaded by the music of the bells
They're not responsible for anything they do
(No) The people know
(No) The way to go
The bells are ringing, they hear the sound

...

A girl with cotton in her ears
Is shielded from the bells' effect
As if by hidden signal
The people turn to face her
One thousand eyes are staring
They pull away her earplugs

The bells are pealing 
And they're revealing 
The simple key to happiness 
It isn't evil
It isn't good 
It's only what the people miss

The bells explain what they've been lacking all along
They were disorganized and that was what was wrong
(No) And now they know
(No) The way to go
The bells are ringing, they hear the sound

 

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14 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

We don't know Bloodraven was skinchanging the raven. That's one theory, and not one I'm a big fan of. Mormont's raven is amusing and annoying, so I much prefer the idea that this is its own character.

Those bells you mentioned remind me of a song. Does anyone plug their ears in the story you mentioned? Some of the lyrics:

 

LOL you didn't even have to link the video, I would have known any TMBG song from a single lyric ;). Funny enough it is actually a decent connection. That song is a commentary on people mindlessly following organized religion, while the bells in A Song For Lya are serving a very similar purpose, except that they literally take a form of control over your mind. I believe GRRM was making a very similar commentary as TMBG.

Yes, we don't technically know that the raven is being skinchanged by Bloodraven, but personally I give it a 99% chance. The biggest piece of evidence is the subject of this thread, the fact that the raven was hidden in the kettle and flew to Jon's shoulder and swung the election. GRRM does not tend to use giant contrived coincidences to advance the plot, as would be the case with a non-skinchanged raven in that scene. Maybe you could say that Aemon or someone put the raven in the kettle, but that doesn't explain why it landed on Jon's shoulder. The only reasonable explanation is that is was being skinchanged.

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If it was BR warging the Raven &/or telepathically influencing the election  (which I am extremely skeptical about but will watch the video) Was he doing it to help Jon - Because he thought Jon deserved to be the LK or was he doing it to hurt Jon - Because he knew his men would kill him? Hmm..

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2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL you didn't even have to link the video, I would have known any TMBG song from a single lyric ;). Funny enough it is actually a decent connection. That song is a commentary on people mindlessly following organized religion, while the bells in A Song For Lya are serving a very similar purpose, except that they literally take a form of control over your mind. I believe GRRM was making a very similar commentary as TMBG.

I should have known you'd be a TMBG fan. :D

I was just doing a relisten to the Arya chapter in ACOK when she serves for Roose and I was reminded of how Roose hated the sounds of the howling wolves and went and hunted them down and brought back the pelts. This happens in the chapter before Ramsay reveals himself to Theon and the reader then knows the Bolton betrayal is in effect. Also, this hearkens back to the Bolton wearing wolf skins to try and imitate a true warg as well. By the way, if you have not done so already, I highly, highly recommend you read the Skin Trade

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes, we don't technically know that the raven is being skinchanged by Bloodraven, but personally I give it a 99% chance. The biggest piece of evidence is the subject of this thread, the fact that the raven was hidden in the kettle and flew to Jon's shoulder and swung the election. GRRM does not tend to use giant contrived coincidences to advance the plot, as would be the case with a non-skinchanged raven in that scene. Maybe you could say that Aemon or someone put the raven in the kettle, but that doesn't explain why it landed on Jon's shoulder. The only reasonable explanation is that is was being skinchanged.

These are the biggest reason why I think it was BR as well. Unless there is a better reason how this happened, BR is the best bet.

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I couldn't make it through the whole video. None of it really makes sense to me. His figures are guesses at best. I quit. He suggests that Sam used some sort of treachery to get Jon to win, which is absolutely against Sams character IMO. I turned it off when he started saying Sam went to talk to Pyke & I think Allister to convince one of them to join the other & all of a sudden without thinking about Jon being LK prior to that blurts out Jon's name in reference to who could be LK. I assume he was going to suggest Sam was being warged or telepathically manipulated somehow which is crackpottery if you ask me. To each his own but I don't buy it  

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Just as Bloodraven skinchanged the raven to influence and help Jon get elected to be the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch... likewise, it will be Branraven that will skinchanged a black winged dragon in the Great Council to come.  

Just as the black winged raven landed next to Jon and then flew to Jon's shoulder, prompting the brothers to elect him... likewise, a black winged dragon will land near Jon and it will be Jon who will mount its shoulder in front of all the lords of Westeros to see, prompting them to elect him as the next King of Westeros.

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1 hour ago, IceFire125 said:

Just as Bloodraven skinchanged the raven to influence and help Jon get elected to be the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch... likewise, it will be Branraven that will skinchanged a black winged dragon in the Great Council to come.  

Just as the black winged raven landed next to Jon and then flew to Jon's shoulder, prompting the brothers to elect him... likewise, a black winged dragon will land near Jon and it will be Jon who will mount its shoulder in front of all the lords of Westeros to see, prompting them to elect him as the next King of Westeros.

The special snowflake won't need no paste eatin tree boy to claim his dragon. 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If it was BR warging the Raven &/or telepathically influencing the election  (which I am extremely skeptical about but will watch the video) Was he doing it to help Jon - Because he thought Jon deserved to be the LK or was he doing it to hurt Jon - Because he knew his men would kill him? Hmm..

Bloodraven skinchanging into the Raven works. Teelpathic influence over the election ... not so much.

 

1 hour ago, IceFire125 said:

Just as Bloodraven skinchanged the raven to influence and help Jon get elected to be the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch... likewise, it will be Branraven that will skinchanged a black winged dragon in the Great Council to come.  

Just as the black winged raven landed next to Jon and then flew to Jon's shoulder, prompting the brothers to elect him... likewise, a black winged dragon will land near Jon and it will be Jon who will mount its shoulder in front of all the lords of Westeros to see, prompting them to elect him as the next King of Westeros.

Drogon is Daenerys's. They're bonded until one of them dies.

Also, Jon's not going to need Bloodraven or Bran's direct assistance in bonding with/riding a dragon. Jon may or may not acquire knowledge from either or both of them prior to getting a dragon, that may or may not be relevant/helpful in the process of bonding with a dragon, but it's not going to be a direct involvement.

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14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The special snowflake won't need no paste eatin tree boy to claim his dragon. 

We can agree to disagree regarding the mechanics of how GRRM will go about the payoff of the foreshadowing.

I'll argue that when Clydas took the lid off and the bird flew around the hall and landed at the table near Jon (due to his familiarity with Jon), I contend that it was not being skinchanged.  It was after the raven landed and then it was skinchanged. 

The raven landed on the table nearest Jon. “Snow,” it cawed. It was an old bird, dirty and bedraggled. “Snow,” it said again, “Snow, snow, snow.” It walked to the end of the table, spread its wings again, and flew to Jon’s shoulder.

Now, I believe GRRM will reverse this.  The skinchanging of the dragon will occur when it will flies in circles and then land near Jon.  The familiarity aspect will not be a skinchanging moment.  It will be at this moment Branraven will let go and allow the dragon to smell and feel Jon's blood, thus allow the dragon-human bond and the moment for Jon to mount its shoulders.

 

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6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I should have known you'd be a TMBG fan. :D

I was just doing a relisten to the Arya chapter in ACOK when she serves for Roose and I was reminded of how Roose hated the sounds of the howling wolves and went and hunted them down and brought back the pelts. This happens in the chapter before Ramsay reveals himself to Theon and the reader then knows the Bolton betrayal is in effect. Also, this hearkens back to the Bolton wearing wolf skins to try and imitate a true warg as well. By the way, if you have not done so already, I highly, highly recommend you read the Skin Trade

These are the biggest reason why I think it was BR as well. Unless there is a better reason how this happened, BR is the best bet.

Ooo, nice catch!

And OF COURSE I am! :D When I was a little kid my dad would play Flood all the time in his car and I have been a big fan ever since. And yes... that album is older than me... :P  

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7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I couldn't make it through the whole video. None of it really makes sense to me. His figures are guesses at best. I quit. He suggests that Sam used some sort of treachery to get Jon to win, which is absolutely against Sams character IMO. I turned it off when he started saying Sam went to talk to Pyke & I think Allister to convince one of them to join the other & all of a sudden without thinking about Jon being LK prior to that blurts out Jon's name in reference to who could be LK. I assume he was going to suggest Sam was being warged or telepathically manipulated somehow which is crackpottery if you ask me. To each his own but I don't buy it  

Well, we know that Sam used treachery to get Jon to win. I mean, call it something else if you want, but Sam went behind everyone's back and negotiated 2 separate backroom deals (with Pyke and Mallister) to get them to both drop out of the election, effectively stealing the election from Janos. And his numbers are not guesses at all, they are based on the hard numbers given by characters in the story. There is some uncertainty about the distribution of the surviving men, and that's why PJ gives the possible ranges of how many brothers are left at each of the three castles.

The telepathic influence definitely approaches crackpottery, but you have to take it in context with the rest of asoiaf, in which telepathic communication and influence is totally a thing. For instance, it is implied that Marwyn/Sarella influenced Aemon to go on his journey to Oldtown by entering his dreams with that glass candle. We know that at a minimum Marwyn was invading his dreams to gather information.

Quote

"As my lord commands. Does . . . does Maester Aemon know?"

"It was as much his idea as mine." Jon opened the door for him. "No farewells. The fewer folk who know of this, the better. An hour before first light, by the lichyard."

Quote

Sometimes he would mutter in his sleep. When he woke he'd call for Sam, insisting that he had to tell him something, but oft as not he would have forgotten what he meant to say by the time that Sam arrived. Even when he did recall, his talk was all a jumble. He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

And of course we have Quaithe and her influence over Dany:

Quote

"Are you here?"

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

So it is not a huge stretch to think that someone powerful like BR could be telepathically influencing Sam to aid his plans. And recall that Sam already had a mysterious blackout which directly led to Sam being in a position to let Bran through the Wall:

Quote

Sam the Slayer. Jon could hardly imagine a less likely warrior than Sam Tarly. "What happened to him?"

"We left him." Grenn sounded miserable. "I shook him and screamed at him, even slapped his face. Giant tried to drag him to his feet, but he was too heavy. Remember in training how he'd curl up on the ground and lie there whimpering? At Craster's he wouldn't even whimper. Dirk and Ollo were tearing up the walls looking for food, Garth and Garth were fighting, some of the others were raping Craster's wives. Dolorous Edd figured Dirk's bunch would kill all the loyal men to keep us from telling what they'd done, and they had us two to one. We left Sam with the Old Bear. He wouldn't move, Jon."

 

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

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41 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well, we know that Sam used treachery to get Jon to win. I mean, call it something else if you want, but Sam went behind everyone's back and negotiated 2 separate backroom deals (with Pyke and Mallister) to get them to both drop out of the election, effectively stealing the election from Janos. And his numbers are not guesses at all, they are based on the hard numbers given by characters in the story. There is some uncertainty about the distribution of the surviving men, and that's why PJ gives the possible ranges of how many brothers are left at each of the three castles.

The telepathic influence definitely approaches crackpottery, but you have to take it in context with the rest of asoiaf, in which telepathic communication and influence is totally a thing. For instance, it is implied that Marwyn/Sarella influenced Aemon to go on his journey to Oldtown by entering his dreams with that glass candle. We know that at a minimum Marwyn was invading his dreams to gather information.

And of course we have Quaithe and her influence over Dany:

So it is not a huge stretch to think that someone powerful like BR could be telepathically influencing Sam to aid his plans. And recall that Sam already had a mysterious blackout which directly led to Sam being in a position to let Bran through the Wall:

 

Sorry I should have been more specific about the treachery I was referring to. I got the impression at the beginning of the video when PJ was talking about Sam that he was implying that Sam either counted votes for Jon that didn't belong to him or miscounted on purpose - Something I don't think he would do. I suppose you could argue that he may do it while telepathically influenced. 

I didn't take the passage about Aemon to imply he was being influenced via his dreams - I took it took mean either that Aemon knows what starts happening when magic re-enters the world i.e. the glass candle. Or that Aemon was having prophetic dreams. I guess it could mean they were in his dreams but this rings truer to me. 

I don't remember Marwyn saying he was in Aemon's dreams gathering information. Do you have quotes for that? That would definitely be a major point towards Marwyn influencing Aemon's dreams. 

I think Sam was scared & in shock. It did leave Sam in a position to help Bran through the wall but it's not as if it isn't realistic for Sam to be scared & in shock to the point of paralyzation after what happened at Craster's. Again it could be that he was under control telepathically but it just doesn't ring true to me. And why would BR "freeze" or "blackout" Sam? Why not have him fall behind? 

Quaithe is giving Danaerys warnings via riddles that are hard to decipher. Dany thinks of them often & wonders if this or that person is the one Quaithe warns about but I wouldn't call that influencing her telepathically anymore than Tywin's "wherever whores go" is influencing Tyrion telepathically. 

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48 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry I should have been more specific about the treachery I was referring to. I got the impression at the beginning of the video when PJ was talking about Sam that he was implying that Sam either counted votes for Jon that didn't belong to him or miscounted on purpose - Something I don't think he would do. I suppose you could argue that he may do it while telepathically influenced. 

If I recall correctly PJ was just highlighting the many flaws with the allegedly "democratic" voting process. But I haven't actually watched the vid since it was originally posted.

49 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I didn't take the passage about Aemon to imply he was being influenced via his dreams - I took it took mean either that Aemon knows what starts happening when magic re-enters the world i.e. the glass candle. Or that Aemon was having prophetic dreams. I guess it could mean they were in his dreams but this rings truer to me. 

I don't remember Marwyn saying he was in Aemon's dreams gathering information. Do you have quotes for that? That would definitely be a major point towards Marwyn influencing Aemon's dreams. 

The quote I already referenced about Aemon's dreams plus this one:

Quote

"To the docks. The Mage is not a man who believes in wasting time." Alleras smiled. "I have a confession. Ours was no chance encounter, Sam. The Mage sent me to snatch you up before you spoke to Theobald. He knew that you were coming."

"How?"

Alleras nodded at the glass candle.

 

51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think Sam was scared & in shock. It did leave Sam in a position to help Bran through the wall but it's not as if it isn't realistic for Sam to be scared & in shock to the point of paralyzation after what happened at Craster's. Again it could be that he was under control telepathically but it just doesn't ring true to me. And why would BR "freeze" or "blackout" Sam? Why not have him fall behind? 

GRRM likes to obfuscate these things as to not make all the mysteries in asoiaf super easy to figure out. Could Sam have simply been in shock? Sure. But it was super ultra convenient for BR's plan of getting Bran past the Wall. He sent Jojen dreams telling them to go to the Nightfort, and he organized the Sam/Gilly adventure to open the Black Gate for them. He did have Sam fall behind. And BR's method was making Sam blackout during the mutiny so he was separated from his NW brothers. Then Sam was lost and had to be rescued by Coldhands, who then gained the trust of Bran because he had "saved" Sam and Gilly. The whole thing was probably orchestrated by BR.

57 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Quaithe is giving Danaerys warnings via riddles that are hard to decipher. Dany thinks of them often & wonders if this or that person is the one Quaithe warns about but I wouldn't call that influencing her telepathically anymore than Tywin's "wherever whores go" is influencing Tyrion telepathically. 

OK, but how is Quaithe giving Dany these warnings? Is she in the room with Dany? No. She is entering Dany's mind telepathically, either through a glass candle or some similar mechanism. Tywin didn't enter Tyrion's mind from hundreds of miles away. He was literally speaking to him in the same room, having a normal, non-telepathic conversation.

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

If I recall correctly PJ was just highlighting the many flaws with the allegedly "democratic" voting process. But I haven't actually watched the vid since it was originally posted.

The quote I already referenced about Aemon's dreams plus this one:

 

GRRM likes to obfuscate these things as to not make all the mysteries in asoiaf super easy to figure out. Could Sam have simply been in shock? Sure. But it was super ultra convenient for BR's plan of getting Bran past the Wall. He sent Jojen dreams telling them to go to the Nightfort, and he organized the Sam/Gilly adventure to open the Black Gate for them. He did have Sam fall behind. And BR's method was making Sam blackout during the mutiny so he was separated from his NW brothers. Then Sam was lost and had to be rescued by Coldhands, who then gained the trust of Bran because he had "saved" Sam and Gilly. The whole thing was probably orchestrated by BR.

OK, but how is Quaithe giving Dany these warnings? Is she in the room with Dany? No. She is entering Dany's mind telepathically, either through a glass candle or some similar mechanism. Tywin didn't enter Tyrion's mind from hundreds of miles away. He was literally speaking to him in the same room, having a normal, non-telepathic conversation.

I can't figure out how to quote each of your passages one at a time from my phone - sorry. 

PJ may have not been implying what I thought as I didn't watch the whole video. But he was referencing the fact that the vote was counted by a blind man, a mostly blind man, & Sam who is Jon's bestfriend. So that's what led me to that conclusion. 

The Alleras quote I read to mean they saw Sam coming in the glass candle so they could scoop him up before anyone else did. 

It was convenient for Sam to fall behind but I would have to disagree that it was super ultra convenient :D lol I just mean he had a very plausible reason to be paralyzed with fear & fall behind without being influenced to do so. I don't think what you are saying is out of the realm of possibility & you may be exactly right but I also don't think its out of the realm of possibility that it didnt happen that way - my gut feeling just leans the other way. 

You're absolutely right about Quaithe communicating telepathically with Dany I just disagree she is influencing her decisions or movement. For one because Dany doesn't really take her advice. She tells her to beware of some particular people. The perfumed senchal & the sun's son for instance. IIRC she doesn't particularly "beware" of anyone. She even seems to figure out who the sun's son is & while she doesn't agree to the marriage pact she doesn't put up any special precautions to guard herself from him either. If Quaithe were influencing her decisions & not simply offering advice wouldn't she influence her to protect herself from those she has been warned about? I suppose it's possible that the sun's son wasn't Quentyn at all which is why Quaithe didn't prod Dany to protect her self against him but I can't think of who else it could be. (Not that that means it couldn't be someone else.) 

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4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I can't figure out how to quote each of your passages one at a time from my phone - sorry. 

PJ may have not been implying what I thought as I didn't watch the whole video. But he was referencing the fact that the vote was counted by a blind man, a mostly blind man, & Sam who is Jon's bestfriend. So that's what led me to that conclusion. 

The Alleras quote I read to mean they saw Sam coming in the glass candle so they could scoop him up before anyone else did. 

It was convenient for Sam to fall behind but I would have to disagree that it was super ultra convenient :D lol I just mean he had a very plausible reason to be paralyzed with fear & fall behind without being influenced to do so. I don't think what you are saying is out of the realm of possibility & you may be exactly right but I also don't think its out of the realm of possibility that it didnt happen that way - my gut feeling just leans the other way. 

You're absolutely right about Quaithe communicating telepathically with Dany I just disagree she is influencing her decisions or movement. For one because Dany doesn't really take her advice. She tells her to beware of some particular people. The perfumed senchal & the sun's son for instance. IIRC she doesn't particularly "beware" of anyone. She even seems to figure out who the sun's son is & while she doesn't agree to the marriage pact she doesn't put up any special precautions to guard herself from him either. If Quaithe were influencing her decisions & not simply offering advice wouldn't she influence her to protect herself from those she has been warned about? I suppose it's possible that the sun's son wasn't Quentyn at all which is why Quaithe didn't prod Dany to protect her self against him but I can't think of who else it could be. (Not that that means it couldn't be someone else.) 

The entire Sam adventure north of the Wall from the attack at the fist to letting Bran through the black gate, was basically a long series of convenient coincidences that played perfectly into BR's plan. Any individual event could reasonably be dismissed, but taken all together in context it is clear that BR was manipulating those events ultimately to get Bran through the Wall undetected (except for Sam who owed his life to Coldhands for "saving" him and was sworn to secrecy, even though BR was probably the one who endangered his life in the first place and then miraculously saved him deus ex machina style).

If you take the Alleras quote and the Sam quote together, along with the fact that we know glass candles can be used to enter dreams, the clear implication is that Marwyn has been infiltrating Aemon's dreams, at a minimum for the purpose of gathering information, particularly information on dragons and Targaryen dragon dreams. Supporting this idea is the fact that Sam was forced to exchange rare books for passage on the Cinnamon Wind, a ship probably in the employ of Marwyn. They claimed they planned on simply selling the books to the Citadel, but that is probably a lie. At least one of the books probably has rare info on dragons and now Marwyn is probably taking the Cinnamon Wind to pay a visit to Dany (who already had one important run in with the captain back in Qarth) and with him he has Gilly (who has knowledge of the Others and stuff north of the Wall), two different forms of kings blood (the baby and Aemon's preserved corpse), and some rare info on dragons.

That was just one example of Quaithe entering Dany's mind. She is probably the one responsible for many or all of her crazy dreams throughout the books. And the goal is not necessarily about giving Dany instructions to follow. If that were the case she wouldn't have been so cryptic. It is about changing Dany's behavior and, in this particular case, making Dany more paranoid about trusting people. We will probably see the major consequences of that warning in TWOW, for instance if it leads Dany to distrust am alliance offer from Aegon and go to war against him instead.

Edited by 40 Thousand Skeletons

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3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The entire Sam adventure north of the Wall from the attack at the fist to letting Bran through the black gate, was basically a long series of convenient coincidences that played perfectly into BR's plan. Any individual event could reasonably be dismissed, but taken all together in context it is clear that BR was manipulating those events ultimately to get Bran through the Wall undetected (except for Sam who owed his life to Coldhands for "saving" him and was sworn to secrecy, even though BR was probably the one who endangered his life in the first place and then miraculously saved him deus ex machina style).

If you take the Alleras quote and the Sam quote together, along with the fact that we know glass candles can be used to enter dreams, the clear implication is that Marwyn has been infiltrating Aemon's dreams, at a minimum for the purpose of gathering information, particularly information on dragons and Targaryen dragon dreams. Supporting this idea is the fact that Sam was forced to exchange rare books for passage on the Cinnamon Wind, a ship probably in the employ of Marwyn. They claimed they planned on simply selling the books to the Citadel, but that is probably a lie. At least one of the books probably has rare info on dragons and now Marwyn is probably taking the Cinnamon Wind to pay a visit to Dany (who already had one important run in with the captain back in Qarth) and with him he has Gilly (who has knowledge of the Others and stuff north of the Wall), two different forms of kings blood (the baby and Aemon's preserved corpse), and some rare info on dragons.

That was just one example of Quaithe entering Dany's mind. She is probably the one responsible for many or all of her crazy dreams throughout the books. And the goal is not necessarily about giving Dany instructions to follow. If that were the case she wouldn't have been so cryptic. It is about changing Dany's behavior and, in this particular case, making Dany more paranoid about trusting people. We will probably see the major consequences of that warning in TWOW, for instance if it leads Dany to distrust am alliance offer from Aegon and go to war against him instead.

I am in desperate need of a re-read. I don't remember feeling like Sam's trek north of the wall felt super convenient but maybe on a re-read with your points in mind I will feel that way.

BUT I absolutely did not know the glass candles could be used to enter dreams! 

I didn't put together the rare books for passage thing - good point. 

As far as Quaithe & Dany I was misunderstanding what you meant. What you are saying makes sense. I was thinking "influencing" more along the lines of Quaithe warging Dany & controlling her like a puppet. Or at the very least some sort of "semi-warging" & controlling her thoughts. She absolutely could be telling her not to trust this person or that person in an effort to get Dany to cooperate with her own end game idea - whatever that may be. 

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4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I am in desperate need of a re-read. I don't remember feeling like Sam's trek north of the wall felt super convenient but maybe on a re-read with your points in mind I will feel that way.

BUT I absolutely did not know the glass candles could be used to enter dreams! 

I didn't put together the rare books for passage thing - good point. 

As far as Quaithe & Dany I was misunderstanding what you meant. What you are saying makes sense. I was thinking "influencing" more along the lines of Quaithe warging Dany & controlling her like a puppet. Or at the very least some sort of "semi-warging" & controlling her thoughts. She absolutely could be telling her not to trust this person or that person in an effort to get Dany to cooperate with her own end game idea - whatever that may be. 

Yeah, it is a big question whether or not BR has the ability to time travel (and lied to Bran about it) but time travel or no, we can basically deduce (by rereading over and over again) that this part of his plan was something like: Alright, I'm going to need Osha later, so I'll just skinchange a turkey, Luwin's donkey, and the direwolves to make Osha run into the Starks and get captured. Then I will manipulate this kid Jojen into going to Winterfell to meet up with Bran and earn Bran's trust. Then I will manipulate Ramsay into getting captured and becoming a prisoner at WF. Then I will manipulate Theon to take WF and release Ramsay, and I'll send a vision to Jojen about the sea coming to WF to really convince Bran that green dreams always come true. Osha will jailbreak the Stark boys, and I'll send another vision to Ramsay giving him the idea and knowledge to skin the miller's boys, and I'll send a similar vision to Jojen to further convince Bran that green dreams always come true. Then Ramsay will burn WF, I'll instruct Jojen to go north, and everyone will think Bran is dead for a while which is necessary for my plan. Then I will tell Jojen to go to the Nightfort, and at the same time I will manipulate Sam's journey to lead him to the Nightfort and let Bran through the Black Gate. I will also put Sam in mortal danger and then have Coldhands "save him" and make him swear to keep Bran a secret in exchange for saving his life. BR is a sneaky bastard. :D

Here is the explanation of how glass candles work:

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"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

"We would have no more need of ravens."

I actually did mean that Quaithe influences Dany along the lines of warging, though definitely not to the same extent of control that, say, Bran has over Summer. In that interaction in particular Quaithe literally has a mind-conversation with Dany, but I think Dany's other dreams drastically change her behavior on a more subconscious level. The best example is probably the dragon dream right after her wedding. One day Dany is literally on the verge of suicide, and then she has a crazy dream where a dragon burns away her flesh, and after that she is totally fine. We don't know for sure that Quaithe is responsible for all of Dany's crazy dreams, but she is a likely suspect. Here is the relevant quote:

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At first it had not come easy. The khalasar had broken camp the morning after her wedding, moving east toward Vaes Dothrak, and by the third day Dany thought she was going to die. Saddle sores opened on her bottom, hideous and bloody. Her thighs were chafed raw, her hands blistered from the reins, the muscles of her legs and back so wracked with pain that she could scarcely sit. By the time dusk fell, her handmaids would need to help her down from her mount.

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. "Khaleesi," Jhiqui said, "what is wrong? Are you sick?"

"I was," she answered, standing over the dragon's eggs that Illyrio had given her when she wed. She touched one, the largest of the three, running her hand lightly over the shell. Black-and-scarlet, she thought, like the dragon in my dream. The stone felt strangely warm beneath her fingers … or was she still dreaming? She pulled her hand back nervously.

 

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On 9/13/2017 at 10:08 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The best example is probably the dragon dream right after her wedding. One day Dany is literally on the verge of suicide, and then she has a crazy dream where a dragon burns away her flesh, and after that she is totally fine. We don't know for sure that Quaithe is responsible for all of Dany's crazy dreams, but she is a likely suspect.

I disagree that this dream could have been Quaithe through glass candles. 

The glass candles didn't start burning again until after the dragons were hatched. 

I think this dream (and the others) should be attributed to "dragon dreams" similar to Daenys the dreamer, Daeron the Drunkard, etc.

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13 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I disagree that this dream could have been Quaithe through glass candles. 

The glass candles didn't start burning again until after the dragons were hatched. 

I think this dream (and the others) should be attributed to "dragon dreams" similar to Daenys the dreamer, Daeron the Drunkard, etc.

This. 

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51 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I disagree that this dream could have been Quaithe through glass candles. 

The glass candles didn't start burning again until after the dragons were hatched. 

I think this dream (and the others) should be attributed to "dragon dreams" similar to Daenys the dreamer, Daeron the Drunkard, etc.

The ones in the West at least. And besides that we know that glass candles are not even the only method of dream infiltration. See: Bloodraven.

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Viserys had told her that the last Targaryen dragons had died no more than a century and a half ago, during the reign of Aegon III, who was called the Dragonbane. That did not seem so long ago to Dany. "Everywhere?" she said, disappointed. "Even in the east?" Magic had died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, and neither spell-forged steel nor stormsingers nor dragons could hold it back, but Dany had always heard that the east was different. It was said that manticores prowled the islands of the Jade Sea, that basilisks infested the jungles of Yi Ti, that spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night. Why shouldn't there be dragons too?

Bran even sees dragons in the east in his coma dream:

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He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

It does not seem to be a prophetic dragon dream like when Daeron saw a dragon fall on top of Dunk.

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