Why Does Sansa Hate The Vale Lords?

[Houseofthedirewolves]

Why does Sansa hate the Vale lords? Is it because Littlefinger hates them? It seems to me that the Lords of the Vale care more about Sweetrobin’s well being than Littlefinger. So what is the source of Sansa’s resentment?

 

'Around the walls the hosts of Lords Declarant were stirring, emerging from their tents like ants from an anthill. If only they truly were ants, she thought, we could step on them and crush them.'

 

At this point she should know that Littlefinger is not trustworthy, and instead of being so resentful of the Vale lords', she should see them as potential allies to help her bring down Littlefinger. I know that he has her brainwashed, but it is infuriating that she still considers him her only friend.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

I always thought she was just pissed about being held under seige. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

I always thought she was just pissed about being held under seige. 

That would be the simple answer than makes a lot of sense. Having to hide her true identity doesn't help either.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

2 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That would be the simple answer than makes a lot of sense. Having to hide her true identity doesn't help either.

I hated to make it that simple but sometimes the obvious answer is the best. I'm sure her feelings about the matter are much more complex but I know I'd want to smash a bunch of people if they had an embargo on my home. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Well in her defense Littlefinger has done more for her then anyone else in a long time. He killed Joffrey and rescued her from Cersei and King's Landing. He chose her over Lysa and basically adopted her. He's really her only option, for all she knows some of the Vale Lords could be in cahoots with Cersei and the Crown. 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Why does Sansa hate the Vale lords?

I'm wondering does she hate the Vale lords or is she fearful that someone my discover she is Lady Lannister?  She is in hiding. There is a reward on her head.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

She does not "hate" them.  You have to remember she's still wanted for regicide and she believes her biggest threat is being discovered.  There's a bounty of 100 dragons to whoever turns her into the Queen.  The Eyrie is cold and remote with very few inhabitants.  The more she is forced to interact with outsiders the more her anxiety goes up.  Even when she comes face to face with Yohn Royce, she has the instinct to tell him everything and beg for his help; however, she immediately doubts herself and assumes because the Vale didn't fight for Robb that no one would want to help her.  Call it her experience from King's Landing that she doesn't easily trust that nobles will act nobly.  And she's also learned that Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, they only want her for her claim.  What's to say one of these Vale lords won't exploit her either if they don't turn her over to the Queen?  She's taken gambles before and they didn't turn out to be the good guys she'd hoped for.  As it turns out, she'll learn how easily they can swayed when they actually make it to the Eyrie.    

She doesn't trust LF, but it's more like the devil you know is a little better than the one you don't.  There's a little bit of a yes and no in regards to the Vale lords caring about SR.  Jon Arryn was a beloved and respected high lord, but there's a great deal of reward in taking custody of his minor son.  The influence alone in Vale politics would be huge.  Many of them were jockeying to marry Lysa to become Lord Protector, but now that she's gone taking Robert as a ward is the next best thing.  As Robert's life is uncertain, Yohn Royce has also put his efforts into knighting and advising his heir, Harrold Hardyng.  Out the whole bunch, I think Yohn Royce is the most honorable for holding out resistance against Littlefinger. 

The supposed honor and chivalry of the Vale is window dressing though.  They are just as susceptible to being bribed and corrupted.  One by one, LF makes Faustian bargains with the Lords Declarant, effectively icing out Yohn and Horton Redfort out of power and influence.  Let's be clear, they aren't against LF because they know he's a bad guy.  They are against him because of classist reasons.  He's from an upjumped minor house on the Fingers that is heavily tied to merchants.  His grandfather was a sellsword from Braavos, so foreign, immigrant, lowborn blood as well.  He lacks their blue blooded pedigree which is the major sticking point.  The Vale lords love boasting about their ancient Andal purity and being the cradle of chivalry in the Westeros, but many of them are also have financial issues.  Littlefinger has made it his business to ingratiate himself with the overly proud.  He's always there to help and offer the solution to their problem.  He bought up Lady Waynwood's debt.  He's bribing Belmore, Templeton and Grafton.  He found a fertile young wife with a hefty dowry for Lionel Corbray.  By the time we get to TWOW sample, pretty much everyone is drinking the kool-aid and accepting LF as LP.  So I don't think it was that unwise to not be completely trusting that these knights and lords would act in her best interest if she exposed her true identity to them.  They've demonstrated they can easily be won over by Littlefinger.

[Houseofthedirewolves]

26 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well in her defense Littlefinger has done more for her then anyone else in a long time. He killed Joffrey and rescued her from Cersei and King's Landing. He chose her over Lysa and basically adopted her. He's really her only option, for all she knows some of the Vale Lords could be in cahoots with Cersei and the Crown. 

Lord Yohn is there too. It would be wise of her to view him as an possible ally rather than listening to Littlefinger's warning to trust nobody but himself. 

Hopefully in 'The Winds of Winter' Sansa works her charm on him as she tries to figure out whether he is a friend or foe. WE know that Lord Yohn is a friend, but she does not. So using the excuse of Lord Baelish being a childhood friend of Catelyn, she should bring up the demise of the Starks and the death of Catelyn and Robb, just to get a feel of Lord Yohn's reaction/loyalty. This will allow her to know who is her ally, rather than Littlefinger's ally.

 

The idea of begging for his protection has played in her mind before, I just wish that she would see it through.

Lord Yohn still looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands. His seamed and solemn face brought back all of Sansa’s memories of his time at Winterfell. She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well. He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection.

[zandru]

Sansa has not been a good judge of character. She's consistently trusted the wrong people and distrusted those who were willing to help her. She's done this from Book 1 to the latest chapters. It's just a part of her character, and apparently is integral to her storyline -er, "song."

[Lollygag]

The Vale lords are sworn to the Eyrie, not Winterfell. They stand to lose everything and be executed for treason if they make the wrong choice and they don’t know what the reader and Sansa knows about LF.

Sansa's word on the matter isn't enough to justify the risk.

 

Added: Backing Sansa over LF would also be treason against the Crown in favor of someone who is essentially homeless as the Boltons currently hold Winterfell.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

8 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Hopefully in 'The Winds of Winter' Sansa works her charm on him as she tries to figure out whether he is a friend or foe.

Actually...

Spoiler

He's not present at the Vale tourney.  He's back in Runestone.  She really doesn't have a way of communicating with him presently.  But I think it's a really good thing he isn't there, because there's set up that this tourney is going to experience a major disaster, whether it be by the Mountain Clans attacking or an avalanche... or both.    

However, I have my suspicion that Myranda Royce is acting as Yohn's eyes and ears and she most certainly knows who Alayne is.  By her bit of sarcasm about Lysa keeping them out of the war, she reveals she was in agreement with Yohn Royce, that they should have joined Robb.  And LF's warning to Sansa that Myranda is "shrewder than her father" is a good sign if LF is wary of her.  LF does not mess with shrewd people like Stannis because he can't get his hooks in them.  They are not easily swayed, flattered, or bought.  She also genuinely seems to like SR and he likes her. 

Quote

"Lady Lysa was so wise, to keep us out of it."

Myranda gave her a shrewd little smile. "Yes, she was the very soul of wisdom, that good lady." She shifted her seat. "Why must mules be so bony and ill-tempered? Mya does not feed them enough. A nice fat mule would be more comfortable to ride. There's a new High Septon, did you know? Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's."

"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.

Sansa also notes Myranda was away from the Gates of the Moon when she first came to the Vale.  Maybe that's just for George's convenience, but where she was during that time might prove important later.  Could she have been visiting the Runestone cousins when they would have received word of Lysa's marriage to LF?  I hope that question gets answered.

Spoiler

Also we learn her relationship with her father is on the rocks and he's threatening to marry her off to an awful, unwanted suitor.  It's never explicitly said why, but it is a fact her father is doubling down on his relationship with LF.  He's accepted more gifts in the form of the tapestries that belonged to King Robert in exchange for his continued support.  I think Myranda has probably been arguing with Nestor Royce over his involvement.  It doesn't make sense why he would threaten to be rid of her.  By all accounts she is very smart and capable of running his household.  As LF warning Sansa to guard her tongue around her, he may have also warned Nestor to keep his daughter in line or the gravy train stops.   

  We get a sense in Alayne II that Myranda already knows but confirms it when she name drops Eddard Stark's bastard being LC of the NW.  But how did she even think to confirm it to begin with?  Remember she's best friends with Mya Stone who controls the only way in and out of the Eyrie.  Mya knows Catelyn Stark's face and Sansa looks exactly like her.  They would also know the official report of Lysa's death is total bullshit.  Marillion supposedly loved Lysa so much he killed her in a fit of jealous rage?  Lysa dismissed 3 servants from the Eyrie, 2 maids and 1 page who accused Marillion of assaulting them.  This behavior is confirmed by Sansa when Marillion attacks her at the Fingers.  But those disgruntled, wrongfully dismissed servants have to leave the Eyrie via Mya's mules.  You can imagine they complained the whole way down.  We know the servants are a very gossipy bunch.  Marillion was hated by everyone except Lysa.  She was his only patron and protector.  He had nothing to gain from killing her and he certainly didn't love her.  It's Lysa that had the jealous rage and possessiveness over her men.  Also why isn't anyone questioning the fact that LF brought his "bastard" to live along side his wife and stepson and why Lysa is allowing it?   We know from Cat and Jon this is not a thing that is done.  It's a scandal.  The servants of WF gossiped about it for years.  The only logical answer is that she's not really his bastard.  A beautiful young girl + Lysa's beloved + Lysa's extreme aggressive jealousy = a powder keg scenario.  Mya and Myranda could compare notes between them and reasonably figure out the broad strokes.  Who Alayne really is and maybe not what really happened to Lysa, but certainly what didn't happen to her.  

So, I don't think it's Sansa that has to reach out to Yohn Royce.  I think we see a man who is fairly intelligent enough to have his own informants when it's prudent for him to remain at Runestone in a show of protest.  He's against the ropes for right now, but we also saw him consolidate power with his remaining ally, Horton Redfort by marrying his daughter Ysilla to Mychel.  That seemed to be quite expedient as Mya was blindsided by it.  He's just waiting for his opportunity to wrest control back and maybe help Sansa, but he can't act just yet while the rest of the Vale is for LF.                 

[Megorova]

Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Eddard Stark were killed by Lannisters. It was Lysa's letter that got Ned into trouble with Cersei and Jaime. The conflict started because of The Vale, but when the war began, Knights of The Vale turned their backs to Starks' family, and said that they have nothing to do with it.

They are the ones who lit the fire, but when the house started burning, they said that they are only guests in here, and they will go away, and leave masters of the house to deal with their own problem. If that's not a good enough reason to hate them, then what is?

[Houseofthedirewolves]

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Eddard Stark were killed by Lannisters. It was Lysa's letter that got Ned into trouble with Cersei and Jaime. The conflict started because of The Vale, but when the war began, Knights of The Vale turned their backs to Starks' family, and said that they have nothing to do with it.

They are the ones who lit the fire, but when the house started burning, they said that they are only guests in here, and they will go away, and leave masters of the house to deal with their own problem. If that's not a good enough reason to hate them, then what is?

Sansa doesn't *know* anything about Lysa's involvement. Lysa confessed in front of her and all, but Sansa would rather not dwell on it. She prefers her pretty lies.

But if she does decide to ponder over Lysa's confession one day, Sansa would have an even greater reason to hate Littlefinger: 1) for telling Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and 2) for telling Lysa to write the letter to Catelyn blaming the Lannisters. 

Lysa's confession is the missing key that Sansa doesn't know that she possesses, and Littlefinger is making sure that she keeps that confession repressed.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

51 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Eddard Stark were killed by Lannisters. It was Lysa's letter that got Ned into trouble with Cersei and Jaime. The conflict started because of The Vale, but when the war began, Knights of The Vale turned their backs to Starks' family, and said that they have nothing to do with it.

The Lannisters had nothing to do with Jon Arryn's death.  That was solely Lysa Arryn and LF.  No, Yohn Royce and most of the Vale lords wanted to side with Robb, but Lysa forbid it.

25 minutes ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Sansa doesn't *know* anything about Lysa's involvement. Lysa confessed in front of her and all, but Sansa would rather not dwell on it. She prefers her pretty lies.

But if she does decide to ponder over Lysa's confession one day, Sansa would have an even greater reason to hate Littlefinger: 1) for telling Lysa to poison Jon Arryn and 2) for telling Lysa to write the letter to Catelyn blaming the Lannisters. 

Well, Aunt Crazy was trying to push Sansa out the open Moon Door at the same time of the confession, so she had that to focus on at that moment.  And then Sansa would have to know what "tears" are.  Ned didn't know what tears of Lys were until Pycelle told him.  I do think upon reflection what her aunt said made her uneasy, but then again Lysa was trying to murder her for Petyr forcing a kiss on her.  She's also seems to be confusing Sansa with Cat.  It's kind of understandable why she isn't particularly dwelling on the ravings of a mad woman or a moment she almost died.  But she may in the future come to know what the tears actually are and put two and two together.  One other person that probably knows Jon Arryn was poisoned and has said nothing to anyone is Maester Colemon.  He was treating Jon when he became sick and was trying to purge him.  Purging suggests he knew it wasn't just natural causes.  Pycelle took over, sent Colemon away, stopped the purging, and allowed Jon to die.  Jon was about to go to Robert with the incest accusation.  Pycelle being Tywin's #1 fan boy saw no benefit to causing a scandal that ousts the Lannister's from power.  But Coleman is clearly very intimidated by Petyr and it does seem like he knows way more than he lets on.   

[zandru]

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

And LF's warning to Sansa that Myranda is "shrewder than her father" is a good sign if LF is wary of her.

Could be - or it could be also be a way to bias Sansa against Myranda, who might be a great ally for Sansa. As I noted, Sansa isn't a very good judge of character on her own. "See with your eyes - hear with your ears" was what Arya learned from both her sword instructor and the Hound, and in greater depth at the House of Black & White, where she honed the rest of her senses as well,(including warging!). Sansa seems to have skipped the "seeing" and "hearing" parts and leans more heavily on trusting authority, fictionalized history, and her own wishful thinking.

I agree; it's likely that Myranda is suspicious of Sansa's actual identity. Myranda has a good information net, and is friendly and gregarious enough to charm bits of information out of anyone, whether lord, lady, servant, or bastard. Sansa is not at all like this, retaining her snobbish class-conscious nature while "playing" at being a bastard. But perhaps she could learn. Better to learn from Myranda than from that sociopathic Svengali, Littlefinger!

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

As I noted, Sansa isn't a very good judge of character on her own. "See with your eyes - hear with your ears" was what Arya learned from both her sword instructor and the Hound, and in greater depth at the House of Black & White, where she honed the rest of her senses as well,(including warging!). Sansa seems to have skipped the "seeing" and "hearing" parts and leans more heavily on trusting authority, fictionalized history, and her own wishful thinking.

And Jon got stabbed, maybe to death, for his misjudging of characters. Bran is trusting BR though his instincts are telling him not to and Jojen is a bit...off. You think the House of Black and White recruited Arya out of the kindness of their hearts? Highly doubtful. A girl with the right mind-set who happens to be a powerful warg/skinchanger (and may or may not be tied some woo-woo Ice stuff) might be the perfect tool as a kill switch for Dany's dragons. You know they're deeply torn between Dany being a Valyrian with dragons and the fact that Dany personally hates, hates, hates slavery yet has two as-of-yet unclaimed dragons which might be used for slavery against Dany's wishes. A closer look at Jaqen makes him look like he has his own motives and is a rogue agent, not someone who has the best interests at heart for Arya as a child.

Ned misjudges, Robb misjudges, LF misjudges, Catelyn misjudges, Jaime misjudges... on through the list. No one is a perfect mind-reader here and that's kinda the point.

[Tygett Lannister]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And Jon got stabbed, maybe to death, for his misjudging of characters. Bran is trusting BR though his instincts are telling him not to and Jojen is a bit...off. You think the House of Black and White recruited Arya out of the kindness of their hearts? Highly doubtful. A girl with the right mind-set who happens to be a powerful warg/skinchanger (and may or may not be tied some woo-woo Ice stuff) might be the perfect tool as a kill switch for Dany's dragons. You know they're deeply torn between Dany being a Valyrian with dragons and the fact that Dany personally hates, hates, hates slavery yet has two as-of-yet unclaimed dragons which might be used for slavery against Dany's wishes. A closer look at Jaqen makes him look like he has his own motives and is a rogue agent, not someone who has the best interests at heart for Arya as a child.

Ned misjudges, Robb misjudges, LF misjudges, Catelyn misjudges, Jaime misjudges... on through the list. No one is a perfect mind-reader here and that's kinda the point.

I would argue Hodor never misjudges a person.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

They failed to help Robb .

[zandru]

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And Jon got stabbed, maybe to death, for his misjudging of characters. Bran is trusting BR though his instincts are telling him not to and Jojen is a bit...off. You think the House of Black and White recruited Arya out of the kindness of their hearts?

Up until that point, Jon had made very few mistakes. We can argue that he was overemotional at the time, what with fears for his sister and the threats of the "pink letter" plus the ongoing emergency at Hardhome. Prior to his assassination, he'd learned about his fellow NW, learned and integrated with the freefolk, got elected Lord Commander and knew the character of the larger Watch at the other forts. He was a really excellent judge of character.

Bran was an 8 year old child, also crippled and pretty much at the mercy of anyone who wants to carry him off. He gets a pass.

Arya wants in at the House of B&W (no, not "Benioff & Weiss" ;-) because she wants to learn the killing art, not because she "trusts" them. She never actually "trusts" Jaqen, but when he offers specific help, she accepts. Arya is always wary, never putting herself at the mercy of others if she can help it. If there's any major misjudgement on her part, it's with Sandor Clegane. She'd have come around to liking him if she hadn't had the pre-existing hate to deal with.

Your Daenerys as potential slaver theory is a real stretch, and in my opinion, totally incredible.

I repeat - Sansa misjudges people over and over again, throughout all of the series we've seen so far. She's been consistent, even when the magical menstrual flow instantly converts her into a "woman grown", wise in all things (at least in her mind). This, she hates the Lords of the Vale largely because Littlefinger tells her to. She trusts him because she's backed herself into a corner and has few options left - particularly since she's a passive girl who doesn't do much of anything on her own. Sansa thinks she likes one of his two main faces, so she gives a pass to the creepy one.

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The Lannisters had nothing to do with Jon Arryn's death.  That was solely Lysa Arryn and LF. 

But Starks didn't knew it at that time. While Sansa was 'imprisoned' at Red Keep, and even had to watch her father's execution, probably she thought - where are Knights of The Vale? where is aunt Lysa? my father will die because he believed to Lysa, and tried to find evidence against Lannisters.

Quote

No, Yohn Royce and most of the Vale lords wanted to side with Robb, but Lysa forbid it.

Yep, she chained them to the wall, and locked them in a dungeon. If they really wanted to help, they would have found a way to do that. But they did nothing.

13 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

Sansa doesn't *know* anything about Lysa's involvement.

Even if she didn't knew from the beginning about Lysa's letter, what she did knew, is that her father was in mortal danger, same as her mother and brother, but her aunt Lysa and her people (that were Ned's close friends for many years) didn't even tried to help any of them.