Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said: Old Nan has some great source material for us to work with and speculate about, but I can't help but laugh at people who built theories on the assumption that "Nan must be right, she knows so much" because seriously: according to her stories wildlings drink blood from human skulls. So there. We must take what she brings to the table with a grain of salt. Maybe there never was a Night King maybe we'll never know! There are tales she tells that are clearly meant for entertainment; fairytales to scare the children, and impart some life lessons. She doesn't actually think the wildlings are literal monsters, and that the Titan of bravos eats little highborn girls. But knowing that the Dragons have been rebirthed? There might be something there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Stark Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Stay away from fan fic youtube videos about the novels. They are worse than any theory posten in here. At least in here, people can be informed as to exactly how foolish their theories can be. Not so on the youtubes. So remember, if there is literally no info about it, as in the identity of the nights king, there is nothing to base a theory on or extrapolate from. So it is bogus. Nan said the nights king could have been a man from a number of great houses in the north, and she said stark last to scare an 8 year old bran. That is the last of any info on said nights king. I enjoy the videos. I don't take them as gospel, but sometimes they stimulate another train of thought for me that I hadn't explored before hand. Part of the enjoyment of the novels, at least for me, is trying to understand as much as possible of what is underneath the text. Similar to the Iceberg theory. There are always little hints and details I missed and once discovered are very satisfying. Especially with all the time between the novels But you are correct about some of the videos, they are strange to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 11 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: There are tales she tells that are clearly meant for entertainment; fairytales to scare the children, and impart some life lessons. She doesn't actually think the wildlings are literal monsters, and that the Titan of bravos eats little highborn girls. But knowing that the Dragons have been rebirthed? There might be something there... But how do you differentiate between what's a fairytale and what is wisdom? That's the beauty of Martin's writing in my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said: A Stark bastard is still a Stark in terms of DNA. Bastardry is a legal and social concept. In any case, yeah, it fits if the Others are of Stark DNA that they would seek to find someone compatible. We have seen how the Valyrians kept their blood pure to preserve the abilities to bond with dragons. Perhaps the Stark DNA, which we know carries skin changing abilities, would be sought after by the Others whom we know use something similar to control their wights. They can, but they don't have to. Skinchanging is not a Stark specialty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 19 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said: They can, but they don't have to. Skinchanging is not a Stark specialty. Well, let's see. Six Stark kids all happen to have the ability. That makes it their specialty. Even more of a specialty than their elongated faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunland Lord Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 21 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said: Well, let's see. Six Stark kids all happen to have the ability. That makes it their specialty. Even more of a specialty than their elongated faces. Not every skinchanger is a Stark. So if that's what the Others are looking for they don't exclusively need Starks. Varamyr, Orell, Haggon are skinchangers, and many more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/29/2018 at 1:12 PM, Dorian Martell's son said: Stay away from fan fic youtube videos about the novels. They are worse than any theory posten in here. At least in here, people can be informed as to exactly how foolish their theories can be. Not so on the youtubes. YES! This is probably the biggest issue I have with many youtubers and others that post all of these theories, most of the time as if they are canon. They are not canon and I can't help but feel these tubers and such do this because they don't like alternate ideas or book quotes that dispel (or "confirm") their fan fiction. On 1/29/2018 at 1:12 PM, Dorian Martell's son said: So remember, if there is literally no info about it, as in the identity of the nights king, there is nothing to base a theory on or extrapolate from. So it is bogus. Nan said the nights king could have been a man from a number of great houses in the north, and she said stark last to scare an 8 year old bran. That is the last of any info on said nights king. YES, again! There is no confirmation who this legendary figure was. Old Nan is a great story teller for young children because she loves to scare them... which totally endears her to me. And readers should keep in mind that there is more than one type of "brother" in the series. A Storm of Swords - Bran IV After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. "Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/23/2018 at 4:12 PM, Kenton Stark said: I was watching a video the other day that brought up something I had always wondered about. Why was their such a prejudice against kids born out of wedlock? The video suggested that the Night's King was a bastard named Jon Snow. I can't remember all the details, but some very interesting arguments were made. YouTuber videos should be watched while enjoying a tall glass of arbor gold. On 1/23/2018 at 4:12 PM, Kenton Stark said: Some of the video's points were, The Great Other's name must never be spoken, that's why Jon Snow's name is a big deal. Ygritte said when she first heard Jon's name.. She flinched and said "an evil name." Another idea is that the concept of bastards being less than everyone else comes from the Andals, and we know that the Andals and the first men do not have a good history with each other. Everything from wars, to burning trees, to Sherritt, to the other Andal oppressions against the First Men/Free Folk. The Free Folk do not think lower of those born out of wedlock: A Storm of Swords - Jon II "Do you mislike the girl?" Tormund asked him as they passed another twenty mammoths, these bearing wildlings in tall wooden towers instead of giants. "No, but I . . ." What can I say that he will believe? "I am still too young to wed." "Wed?" Tormund laughed. "Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?" Jon could feel himself turning red again. "She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her." "You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?" "I might get her with child." "Aye, I'd hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where's the harm in that?" Words failed him for a moment. "The boy . . . the child would be a bastard." "Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, more like to fail?" "No, but—" "You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted." "I will not father a bastard." Tormund shook his shaggy head. "What fools you kneelers be. Why did you steal the girl if you don't want her?" ...and it continues.. On 1/23/2018 at 4:12 PM, Kenton Stark said: I think this may be why their is such prejudice against bastard children in westeros. Think about the way people describe bastards in the books...traitors, deceitful, etc. If the Knight's King was a bastard who's name must be erased, then its easy to see how all children born out of wedlock would suffer by association. Andal influence. On 1/23/2018 at 4:12 PM, Kenton Stark said: It may also explain why there is less prejudice in Dorne, because of the distance from the wall and the years of a separate culture from the rest of the seven kingdoms. Your observation how this compares to Dorne is a good one and on the right path The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne There are no cities in Dorne, though the socalled shadow city that clings to the walls of Sunspear is large enough to be counted as a town (a town built of mud and straw, it must be admitted). Larger and more populous, the Planky Town at the mouth of the river Greenblood is mayhaps the nearest thing the Dornish have to a true city, though a city with planks instead of streets, where the houses and halls and shops are made from poleboats, barges, and merchant ships, lashed together with hempen rope and floating on the tide. Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them." The Dornishmen boast that theirs is the oldest of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This is true, after a fashion. Unlike the Andals, who came later, the First Men were not seafarers. They came to Westeros not on longships but afoot, over the land bridge from Essos—the remnants of which exist today only as the Stepstones and the Broken Arm of Dorne. Walking or riding, the eastern shores of Dorne would inevitably have been where they first set foot upon Westerosi soil. On 1/23/2018 at 4:12 PM, Kenton Stark said: Interested to hear your thoughts Thar be plenty o'these on this forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Stark Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 51 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: YouTuber videos should be watched while enjoying a tall glass of arbor gold. Another idea is that the concept of bastards being less than everyone else comes from the Andals, and we know that the Andals and the first men do not have a good history with each other. Everything from wars, to burning trees, to Sherritt, to the other Andal oppressions against the First Men/Free Folk. The Free Folk do not think lower of those born out of wedlock: A Storm of Swords - Jon II "Do you mislike the girl?" Tormund asked him as they passed another twenty mammoths, these bearing wildlings in tall wooden towers instead of giants. "No, but I . . ." What can I say that he will believe? "I am still too young to wed." "Wed?" Tormund laughed. "Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?" Jon could feel himself turning red again. "She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her." "You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?" "I might get her with child." "Aye, I'd hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where's the harm in that?" Words failed him for a moment. "The boy . . . the child would be a bastard." "Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, more like to fail?" "No, but—" "You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted." "I will not father a bastard." Tormund shook his shaggy head. "What fools you kneelers be. Why did you steal the girl if you don't want her?" ...and it continues.. Andal influence. Your observation how this compares to Dorne is a good one and on the right path The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne There are no cities in Dorne, though the socalled shadow city that clings to the walls of Sunspear is large enough to be counted as a town (a town built of mud and straw, it must be admitted). Larger and more populous, the Planky Town at the mouth of the river Greenblood is mayhaps the nearest thing the Dornish have to a true city, though a city with planks instead of streets, where the houses and halls and shops are made from poleboats, barges, and merchant ships, lashed together with hempen rope and floating on the tide. Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them." The Dornishmen boast that theirs is the oldest of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. This is true, after a fashion. Unlike the Andals, who came later, the First Men were not seafarers. They came to Westeros not on longships but afoot, over the land bridge from Essos—the remnants of which exist today only as the Stepstones and the Broken Arm of Dorne. Walking or riding, the eastern shores of Dorne would inevitably have been where they first set foot upon Westerosi soil. Thar be plenty o'these on this forum Great, insightful feedback!!! Thanks so much for your time and thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: YES, again! There is no confirmation who this legendary figure was. Old Nan is a great story teller for young children because she loves to scare them... which totally endears her to me. And readers should keep in mind that there is more than one type of "brother" in the series. A Storm of Swords - Bran IV After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. "Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room." I know this isn’t everyone’s opinion, but I’m gonna believe Old Nan until she’s proven wrong. She’s hit the heads of too many nails she seemingly had no business knowing anything about... and she repeats that the Nights King was a Stark twice, a Stark of Winterfell no less. The rest after the “mayhaps”, sure who can say? Quote All that had happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, to be sure, and some maybe never happened at all. Maester Luwin always said that Old Nan's stories shouldn't be swallowed whole. But once his uncle came to see Father, and Bran asked about the Nightfort. Benjen Stark never said the tales were true, but he never said they weren't; he only shrugged and said, "We left the Nightfort two hundred years ago," as if that was an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: I know this isn’t everyone’s opinion, but I’m gonna believe Old Nan until she’s proven wrong. She’s hit the heads of too many nails she seemingly had no business knowing anything about... and she repeats that the Nights King was a Stark twice, a Stark of Winterfell no less. The rest after the “mayhaps”, sure who can say? I totally agree that Old Nan is to be trusted (and I secretly hope she is still alive at Dreafort), because I would trust ON waaaaay before I would trust a maester. I just know Nan is telling tales of tales and it seems to me that these tales are just the foreshadowing for the current story, and that the exact details of the past do not matter as much. But, I could be wrong. And speaking of foreshadowing and those pesky maesters interrupting the story, this part always drives me crazy Bad timing, Luwin. Bad timing! He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—" The door opened with a bang, and Bran's heart leapt up into his mouth in sudden fear, but it was only Maester Luwin, with Hodor looming in the stairway behind him. "Hodor!" the stableboy announced, as was his custom, smiling hugely at them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 On January 29, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Lady Dacey said: But how do you differentiate between what's a fairytale and what is wisdom? That's the beauty of Martin's writing in my opinion... When it's really not played up. When it's a simple declaration rather than a long episode full of theatrics. "It'd be dragons boy" is very direct and simple with no real outrageous details-if it was simply another concoction in her head to scare Bran, she would have went it ludicrous details on how not is it a dragon it's a dragon 1000 feet tall and literally talks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said: I totally agree that Old Nan is to be trusted (and I secretly hope she is still alive at Dreafort), because I would trust ON waaaaay before I would trust a maester. I just know Nan is telling tales of tales and it seems to me that these tales are just the foreshadowing for the current story, and that the exact details of the past do not matter as much. that's what I wanted to say but didn't know how! It's tales not history, and they are more relevant to the future than to the past... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 16 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said: When it's really not played up. When it's a simple declaration rather than a long episode full of theatrics. "It'd be dragons boy" is very direct and simple with no real outrageous details-if it was simply another concoction in her head to scare Bran, she would have went it ludicrous details on how not is it a dragon it's a dragon 1000 feet tall and literally talks. That does make sense and I see where you are coming from, but I still think there's a grey area between what is being played up and what might be true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varysblackfyre321 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 13 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said: That does make sense and I see where you are coming from, but I still think there's a grey area between what is being played up and what might be true... Certainly. If she's playing an old nurse maid she's going to have to spin elaborate tales like one and even the tales to which she knows a little more than she's letting on has certain details she exaggerates . And if she's more than she seems she maybe sprinkling a little truth bogged down behind all fairlytales; or perhaps she only does this on occasion or never. The NK story she doesn't really give any information that wouldn't be common speculation among the north regarding this tale and perhaps a little of her own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Hold Em Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 There is a connection between the white walkers and the Starks. I suspect the Starks share blood with them. The tale of the NK and NQ was told to us for a reason. It establishes the possibility that they had children and the line continued on down to the present Starks and their close kin, like Craster. I also think there is a good chance that Craster is a distant Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Old Nan let it pretty open, he could have been a Stark, but he could also have been from many other Northern houses. We don't even know if the Night's King really exists. Mind you, I am talking about the books here, in the TV Show he does exist, but then again, this is the book section of the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 22 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: YES! This is probably the biggest issue I have with many youtubers and others that post all of these theories, most of the time as if they are canon. They are not canon and I can't help but feel these tubers and such do this because they don't like alternate ideas or book quotes that dispel (or "confirm") their fan fiction. YES, again! There is no confirmation who this legendary figure was. Old Nan is a great story teller for young children because she loves to scare them... which totally endears her to me. And readers should keep in mind that there is more than one type of "brother" in the series. A Storm of Swords - Bran IV After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. "Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room." exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen Marsh Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 That would bring history to full circle. The Stark bastard at the wall now is a traitor and would fit the role for a new Night's King. But fear not, I am ready to knife him as many times as necessary. Bowen is watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Kings Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Whats the Love Triangle between the 13th lord commander (whom is a STARK) and the other and the STARK in W.F.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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