Harrenhal As Seen Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes Part 2

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL!

I was dead serious! 

Truly!

 

[ravenous reader]

27 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

weaving words and talking to trees and whatever magic Howland learns from the green men.

I think the crannogs possess both a deep knowledge of their environment and true proper magic. 

The "weaving words" part always made me think of Obi Wan using Force-speech on the guards at Mos Eisley.

"These aren't the droids you're looking for..." - coz Alec Guinness.  (@ 38 secs)

 

And the talking to trees I think is "exactly what it says on the tin" - direct communication via weirwood. 

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"In time," Cressen replied. "If the gods are good, they will grant us a warm autumn and bountiful harvests, so we might prepare for the winter to come." The smallfolk said that a long summer meant an even longer winter, but the maester saw no reason to frighten the child with such tales.

Patchface rang his bells. "It is always summer under the sea," he intoned. "The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed. I know, I know, oh, oh, oh."

Shireen giggled. "I should like a gown of silver seaweed."

I do not seem to get beyond this quote -- it seems I am the Poetess of that which I do not comprehend!

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was dead serious! 

Truly!

 

Borrowed armor.... @Seams
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me."

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

Why does Howland go the Isle of Faces in the first with a bronze shirt, shield and spear?  Is it to receive combat training since there are no masters-at-arms among the Crannogmen?  If Howland can weave words and glamors can he draw something from his borrowed armor or his strange shield?

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The "weaving words" part always made me think of Obi Wan using Force-speech on the guards at Mos Eisley.

This puts me in mind of Melisandre statement about the power of words and the hypnotic sound of her voice. But also, the ear worm:

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

Also that both Bran and Ned have been made to forget certain things.

 

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I do not seem to get beyond this quote -- it seems I am the Poetess of that which I do not comprehend!

The crannogmen certainly seem to take leaf from the Cotf book of camouflage techniques, if they have moss growing from their pits (according to the Freys).  I suspect they are as difficult to see in the wood and bogs as the Cotf, or Hobbits unless they want to be seen.

But yes, I do think they have real magic and can weave words and glamors in some way.  Green dreams of course and who knows what else.  Are they mermen?  What of the Order of the Green Hand, half fish-half man with a three pronged spear?

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

This puts me in mind of Melisandre statement about the power of words and the hypnotic sound of her voice. But also, the ear worm:

Nice.  A Dune reference to the 'Voice' of the Bene Gesserit (P.S.  Why does our friend @Voice call himself 'The Voice...'?! )

Quote

The Voice

Bene Gesserit are trained in what they call "the Voice" – a means "to control others merely by selected tone shadings of the voice."^[16] By modulating the subtleties of her voice, a Bene Gesserit can issue commands on a subconscious level, compelling obedience in others that they cannot resist, whether they are consciously aware of the attempt or not. This control can be as subtle as influencing thoughts and motivations, or as strong as forcing physical actions and even temporary paralysis in the subject. To effect this, the Bene Gesserit must "register" the intended target by analyzing his or her personality and vocal patterns through observation or seemingly innocuous direct questions.^[17][18] Training in the Voice is independent of the Reverend Mother ritual, so individuals outside the order may even be instructed in its use. Prior to Dune, Jessica has begun teaching it to Paul; after the Reverend Mother Mohiam tests him in the novel, she urges Jessica to "ignore the regular order of training. His own safety requires the Voice. He already has a good start in it, but we both know how much more he needs ... and that desperately."^[2] Jessica herself later notes of Paul's novice attempt: "The tone, the timbre excellent – imperative, very sharp. A slightly lower pitch would have been better, but it could still fall within this man's spectrum."^[2] The Voice may also be subtly employed in any manner of conversation, public speaking, or debate to help soothe, convince, persuade, influence, or otherwise enhance the effect of the words being spoken.

The Voice is useless against targets who cannot hear the speaker; both Baron Harkonnen in Dune and House Corrino in Children of Dune employ deaf people to guard Jessica, knowing that she cannot control them via the Voice.^[2] Being a manipulation of the target's subconscious mind, the Voice is of limited utility against an extremely disciplined mind, such as a Reverend Mother or a strong Mentat; if the target understands what the Voice is and how it works, and is aware that it is being used, he may resist it. One trained in the use of the Voice may easily detect its use by others, even subtly. In Dune Messiah, Paul trains some guards to resist the Voice so that he may imprison Bene Gesserit. By the time of Children of Dune, Gurney Halleck has also been trained by Jessica to resist the Voice completely.

In Heretics of Dune Reverend Mother Odrade explains to Sheeana that planetary populations exposed to long term Voice control learn ways to adapt to it, and can no longer be manipulated. This is why the Honored Matres have been driven back into the Old Empire; over-controlling, they have built up both resistance and rebellion, and are now on the run from their former subjects.

The prequel Dune: The Battle of Corrin establishes that the first Bene Gesserit to use the Voice is Raquella Berto-Anirul, the founder of the order.

 

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Also that both Bran and Ned have been made to forget certain things.

What was Ned made to forget, in your opinion -- and by whom..?

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What was Ned made to forget, in your opinion -- and by whom..?

Ned forgets everything that transpires the moment after Lyanna dies and Howland takes her hand from Ned's. I'm assuming that he and Howland are the only two present in the room.

[PrettyPig]

35 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Yeah I agree. I think the best exemple we have in the books comes from Arya in the Harrenhal godswood. She actually engages in a conversation with the Old Gods... I bet Howland and the crannogmen do this sort of thing often. They heed the advice from the forest. 

I am writing an essay right now on this very thing....and what I’m finding may surprise people.   Because....

 

40 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

It just CAN'T be a coincidence that early in the series we see a man fully clad in green wearing antlers in his helm. It can't be.

...this may play a big part in it.   Or not, as the case may be.  I think what they asked for may not have been what they got, or at least not the version they were expecting.

[The Fattest Leech]

I’m sick in bed at the moment and decided to go through some YouTube videos when this one popped up and reminded me of this thread. 

There are a couple of good visuals that seem to show some of the (not sure how to phrase it?) non-literal Crannog Magic. Especially the part where Meera is talking about Greywater Castle paired with the visuals of the trees. 

And then the closing line about the sea left itself behind. 

Anyway, it is a short 4 minute video if you have a few minutes. 

 

[Lady Dacey]

1 minute ago, PrettyPig said:

I am writing an essay right now on this very thing....and what I’m finding may surprise people.   Because....

 

...this may play a big part in it.   

You've got my attention! 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

I am writing an essay right now on this very thing....and what I’m finding may surprise people.   Because....

 

...this may play a big part in it.   

Ooh. Sounds great. Can’t wait to read it. 

[PrettyPig]

9 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

You've got my attention! 

 

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ooh. Sounds great. Can’t wait to read it. 

I can’t wait to finish it!  Like George’s stories, my essays grow in the telling snd this one keeps getting bigger.  I was inspired by this thread, actually.

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ned forgets everything that transpires the moment after Lyanna dies and Howland takes her hand from Ned's. I'm assuming that he and Howland are the only two present in the room.

Doesn't Ned think something along the lines of, 'they had to take Lyanna's hand from his'? 

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Doesn't Ned think something along the lines of, 'they had to take Lyanna's hand from his'? 

Right, he says 'they' found him with her.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

So oddly he doesn't remember what happened after she died, or who found him or what happened after he was found.  The only thing he seems to remember is Howland taking her hand from his

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Right, he says 'they' found him with her.
 

So oddly he doesn't remember what happened after she died, or who found him or what happened after he was found.  The only thing he seems to remember is Howland taking her hand from his

Tks! I couldn't tell whether I was remembering or making shit up!

 

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think we could probably include 'changing earth to water and water to earth' in that category.  This implies raising and lowering water levels to make known roadways disappear and new ones appear.  Probably using a systems of damns to divert moving water.  That would be effective in stopping enemy movement.

Meera says that one of their magics is 'breathing mud'; not quite the same as the story told by the Freys.  What do you suppose this means?

Remember the old shows from the early '70s where someone would be under the mud or quicksand with a straw up above the surface?    That's all I've got. 

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Asshai Backward said:

I've always thought Mance Rayder's story about hunting elk and getting waylaid by a shadow cat was metaphorical.  Is there a connection here?  (I have had my own thoughts about what the metaphor really means, but that theory is often wildly unpopular, but this angle opens up some new possibilities.)

Thanks to you all for sharing your thoughts.

 

 

Welcome, @Asshai Backward--thank you for joining in and sharing your thoughts.   

9 hours ago, Asshai Backward said:

Whether there is skinchanging involved or not, I find the idea that the CoTF and/or crannogmen and or/greenmen are intermediaries between opposing forces (Ice and Fire) to be quite compelling.

Speaking of green men, is there any relationship between them and the blue warlocks?

See how easy it is to just interrupt the civilized folks?   Now this idea of yours that the COFT/Crannogmen/Green Men could be intermediaries between opposing forces (as the 1st men and COTF were once) is very interesting.  Surely the COTF have got some serious power on their side, elemental and mental.  I'm thinking of the Pact itself here.  If the COTF and 1st Men were the warring champions, would the COTF or more specifically the powers of earth and ice be the only intermediaries?  Bringing the Warlocks up is a very interesting addition here and I do expect their specific powers to become apparent in TWOW.  Let's establish the balance between the elements to really round this idea of yours out.    Ball is yours, run with it!   

I'm struggling with precisely what the green men are.  I think it's possible they may be representatives of the pact signers--1st Men and COTF.  I really like where our friend @Seams went with their potential part in an intelligence network.    I mean, come on, they're on an island full of trees with seeing faces!   

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Tks! I couldn't tell whether I was remembering or making shit up!

 

After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

It sounds like this will be part of Meera's story about Lyanna saved for another time. 

Ned's recollection is rather strange.  If 'they' found Ned alone holding Lyanna's body; when does Howland take Lyanna's hand from Ned's?  The picture I get is that Ned is sitting with Lyanna, holding her hand and that Howland is with Ned.  Otherwise there is no witness to the promises Ned made and I suspect that will be part of Meera's story for another time.

So the business of being found holding her body in silent grief seems like something that comes afterwards, not before.  Someone has to come and prepare the body.  So I have to stick with Ned forgetting everything after Howland takes Lyanna's hand from Ned's.   

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

This is also rather strange... she is tightly clutching Ned's hand while holding onto a dead rose.  This is the point where Howland takes her hand from his.

I find the description of Ned, silent with grief rather suggestive.  He is the 'silent' brother and the 'silent brothers' are found on the Quiet Isle, a place of salt and smoke.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I find the description of Ned, silent with grief rather suggestive.  He is the 'silent' brother and the 'silent brothers' are found on the Quiet Isle, a place of salt and smoke.

Interesting observation. If you re-read the chapter after the Hand's Tourney, where Ned and Ser Barriston are looking over the body of Ser Hugh of the Vale, who died during a jousting match with Ser Gregor, there is a silent sister who gets some instruction from Ned. I suspect that silent sister is an echo of Lyanna, returning a dead young man - and his kick-ass new armor - to his unnamed mother.

(The silent sister part of this Ser Hugh of the Vale post is about three-fifths of the way down.)

I'm seeing a growing set of allusions between Lyanna and Brienne. This may foreshadow a mystery knight episode coming up for Brienne. I'm also getting some hints about comparing Ser Barristan and Brienne. I'm guessing they may lead to a true knight / perfect knight conclusion. (I hope this isn't too far off the OP. Ser Barristan and Lyanna were both at the tourney at Harrenhal, right? This may give us a way to see Brienne's story in connection to the historic events at that location.)

[LynnS]

57 minutes ago, Seams said:

Interesting observation. If you re-read the chapter after the Hand's Tourney, where Ned and Ser Barriston are looking over the body of Ser Hugh of the Vale, who died during a jousting match with Ser Gregor, there is a silent sister who gets some instruction from Ned. I suspect that silent sister is an echo of Lyanna, returning a dead young man - and his kick-ass new armor - to his unnamed mother.

(The silent sister part of this Ser Hugh of the Vale post is about three-fifths of the way down.)

I'm seeing a growing set of allusions between Lyanna and Brienne. This may foreshadow a mystery knight episode coming up for Brienne. I'm also getting some hints about comparing Ser Barristan and Brienne. I'm guessing they may lead to a true knight / perfect knight conclusion. (I hope this isn't too far off the OP. Ser Barristan and Lyanna were both at the tourney at Harrenhal, right? This may give us a way to see Brienne's story in connection to the historic events at that location.)

I do agree that Brienne is being set up at the true knight/perfect knight and she may end being the only one worthy or the dawn sword which is another connection to Howland's part in the death of Arthur.  

"This was needless. War should not be a game." Ned turned to the woman beside the cart, shrouded in grey, face hidden but for her eyes. The silent sisters prepared men for the grave, and it was ill fortune to look on the face of death. (AGoT, Eddard VII)

I think the allusion here is to the Stranger and the silents sisters as godswives.  It's possible that Lyanna disguised herself as a silent sister.

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"A man would need to be a fool to rape a silent sister," Ser Creighton was saying. "Even to lay hands upon one . . . it's said they are the Stranger's wives, and their female parts are cold and wet as ice." He glanced at Brienne. "Uh . . . beg pardon."

If she did, this may have something to do with Ned's vision of a storm of rose petals blue as the eyes of death:  

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

And the seventh face . . . the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there

Silent Sisters would have prepared Lyanna's body to be sent to Winterfell instead of burial by the Silent Brothers. 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She was a Stark of Winterfell," Ned said quietly. "This is her place."

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"Too many corpses, these days." The Elder Brother sighed. "Our gravedigger knows no rest. Rivermen, westermen, northmen, all wash up here. Knights and knaves alike. We bury them side by side, Stark and Lannister, Blackwood and Bracken, Frey and Darry. That is the duty the river asks of us in return for all its gifts, and we do it as best we can. Sometimes we find a woman, though . . . or worse, a little child. Those are the cruelest gifts." He turned to Septon Meribald. "I hope that you have time to absolve us of our sins. Since the raiders slew old Septon Bennet, we have had no one to hear confession."

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

By the time the readings were completed, the last of the food had been cleared away by the novices whose task it was to serve. Most were boys near Podrick's age, or younger, but there were grown men as well, amongst them the big gravedigger they had encountered on the hill, who walked with the awkward lurching gait of one half-crippled. As the hall emptied, the Elder Brother asked Narbert to show Podrick and Ser Hyle to their pallets in the cloisters. "You will not mind sharing a cell, I hope? It is not large, but you will find it comfortable."

Edit: Ser Hugh's death triggers bitter thoughts about the war for Ned especially since Ned leaves the Vale to call his banners himself.