Mad Men - Season 4 - SPOILERS Thread

[Brude]

First episode down. Initial thoughts:

Boy, those new offices feel claustrophobic compared to the old place. They made mention of it, of course. They said they are lying by saying they have two floors, but it looks more like they have maybe 1/2 of one floor. If they had even a single floor of the Time/Life building, they'd have a lot more room than that (I know the building fairly well, it's a biggun). All of the individual offices inside are tiny compared to their old digs, too.

Joan has her own office, that'll make her feel better, I'm sure.

Peggy comes off 10 years older now, far, far more confident - she's changed the most in the one year since the last season episodes are to have ended. Peter, though, seems similarly grown into his role. I guess more importance and responsibility have rubbed off on them. And just in general we are seeing people talk back to Don in ways I couldn't imagine at the old place. There are different dynamics going on and I haven't processed all of them yet.

I was stunned at first to see Don paying a hooker, I couldn't imagine why he'd need to bother, until she started to slap him. While that was surprising in other ways, it did explain why he'd need to pay for those "special services." Pretty interesting new insight into Don. I wonder if that's a new kink for him, a sign of his need to feel punished for guilt he is experiencing? I don't know, I can't say I much understand that particular mindset that's into that stuff.

The fight for the canned ham plotline was funny as hell.

[RedEyedGhost]

Fantastic episode!

I was quite shocked that he was paying for it, that just shows how much he had been out of it. I liked Don's date, much much smarter than Betty. Don looked like he'll relish the challenge of more modern women.

Peggy got a nose job, right? Character-wise it looks like Peggy is going to be much more assertive this season.

AMC needs to regulate the volume of the show to the volume of the commercial breaks much better (its a problem on Breaking Bad too).

Henry's mother 'discussing' Betty was fantastic: "Well I know what you see in her, and you could have gotten it without marrying her." :rofl: It's nice to see a character in the show pointing out just how much Betty sucks.

Sally looks like she'll be entertaining all season long.

Can anybody explain the "John"..."Marsha"... bit?

Boy, those new offices feel claustrophobic compared to the old place. They made mention of it, of course. They said they are lying by saying they have two floors, but it looks more like they have maybe 1/2 of one floor. If they had even a single floor of the Time/Life building, they'd have a lot more room than that (I know the building fairly well, it's a biggun). All of the individual offices inside are tiny compared to their old digs, too.

Bert didn't feel comfortable in the new digs at all - he needs that second floor to hide out on. Nice to see him still going around sans shoes.

I was stunned at first to see Don paying a hooker, I couldn't imagine why he'd need to bother, until she started to slap him. While that was surprising in other ways, it did explain why he'd need to pay for those "special services." Pretty interesting new insight into Don. I wonder if that's a new kink for him, a sign of his need to feel punished for guilt he is experiencing? I don't know, I can't say I much understand that particular mindset that's into that stuff.

I think Don could get a woman to slap him without paying for it, but I don't know what women would consider out of bounds in 1964.

[Brude]

Can anybody explain the "John"..."Marsha"... bit?

It's an old meme from back in the 1950's, but I remember it still being referenced as late as the 1980's. Looney Tunes also did the "John...Marsha..." bit in I think more than one cartoon.

I was never sure what the origin of it was, but I knew it well growing up. Someone over at IMDb explained it, though:

It was a soap opera spoof record by Stan Freberg in which the dialogue consisted primarily of the 2 characters saying each other's names over background organ music.

Another looked it up and found:

JOHN AND MARSHA

Stan Freberg

This song consists of a woman's voice calling "John" and a

man's voice calling "Marsha". The intonation, emphasis, pronunciation,

and other characteristics of the voices tell a story, starting with a

young couple's love, going through quarrels, making-up, etc. and finishing

with the voices of a very elderly couple.

A very imaginative song, but the lyrics would just be

"John...Marsha...John...Marsha...John...Marsha..."

[Rhom]

Loved it. I think it was by far the strongest season opener the show has had.

There were some great Roger lines in there. "Maybe at Thanksgiving you can stuff her" and "We didn't even warrant a whole reporter." :rofl:

There were a couple of moments when Don was on his date, that she gave me some very real Betty vibes. Considering that Betty was a college educated gal working as a model when Don met her, (can't remember her name) Jayne's friend has some strong similarities. At first, I thought she'd be a brainless fluff who Don would be miserable babysitting for the evening. But she actually held her own. It could be a decent plotline.

Don and the hooker interested me also, but I'm wondering if there's any significance to the strong resemblance to Joan. The red-haired, full-figured look almost seems to coincidental to just dismiss.

Keirnan Shipka who plays Sally looks like she has grown almost two years in the one year since we saw her last. She lost a lot of baby fat between seasons. I agree that it looks like she's being set up for some solid storylines for this year.

With Henry's mom calling a spade a spade and Henry snapping at Betty a couple of times, I wonder if its just a matter of time before he starts beating her.

Don is acting even more like a prima donna at work. The end of the episode where he starts to act like the "Bad Boy of Advertising" to the swimsuit guys and the reporter from the WSJ was very entertaining to watch and I think sets us up for a strong season.

[Rockroi]

Loved it. I think it was by far the strongest season opener the show has had.

I tried typing and re-typing my thoughts and decided to repost what Rhom said because he said it best. This was a strong episode, one that just blasts off from where we last were. Some thoughts:

1. This episode re-centered the show in a universe that is well off-center. Don Draper was told- THREE TIMES -in the episode how amazing he was: Roger, Peggy, Peter etc all say- at one point or another -how incredible he was and what he meant not only to SCDP (Sterling, Cooper, Draper, Price) but also to the people INDIVIDUALLY! SCDP was build BECAUSE of Don Draper; he had just come off the Shine-Glow commercial which was HUGE; he was the driving force behind the whole enterprise. He was the man. And YET- he did not ACT like the man; he still held his tongue with Bert- his partner now; he was still out of sorts with Betty, not even enforcing that she MUST move out; even stooping so low as to pay a woman to SLAP HIM! Was this Don Draper, the man?

I mean... the story begins in the most obvious way "Who is Don Draper?" And the reminder that Don is NOT ACTUALLY DON is right there the whole time: he is a man from a town with no name! As Roger (John Slattery: Super Genius) states: Don never told them ANYTHING! And Don's response? He should not have to: his work is what he says; he does not need to tell anyone else anything.

And yet... "GET OUT OF MY OFFICE!" And suddenly he is sitting in front of the Wall Street Journal saying how he demanded to be fired and started their new firm. And its ... where the truth lies. They DON'T have two floors on the Time Life building (I am in the minority: their office, I thought, looked bigger than half a floor); he WAS A LONG WAY from confident that it would work (in fact, Don was a shell by the end of last season).

But that was the thing: somewhere between Bert's no conference table and the bikini, Don Draper started believing his own press. I loved that.

2. I thought that EVERY character has developed into their new roles, Pete and Peggy as the most obvious, but also Henry as Betty's husband grew as well. However, I thought the character that grew the most was Harry- the suddenly tough-talking TV media hound who barks orders (strangely like Roger) and gets things done. I also liked that he is, suddenly, wearing a hair-piece. Regardless, I thought the show explained very well how these people have developed since we saw them last.

3. Except for Betty. Betty is just as disjointed, just as cruel, just as rudderless. As her new husband (wow) pointed out, her desire to stay in the house is actually more just to spite Don than anything else. And that's pointless, but surprisingly Betty. Very troubled by her and her daughter's devolving relationship.

4. Roger Sterling should be on every TV show. His character would be simple: he would walk in and make surprisingly accurate comments about the other people on the show. Come on, tell me you would not watch Roger Sterling on Lost, mocking everyone endlessly! My favorite line: "You know one of them is leaving with VD." And did anyone else notice that Roger apparently has two huge, silver balls on his desk? And yet, its Roger who spoke the most sense when dealing with Don.

5. And outside, a darker world is developing. Again, we see the past follies of a damaged Super-Power, a one-legged reporter, Korean vet (and the mega-lame "This country appreciates your sacrifice" that is, strangely, again in vogue in 2010"); the stories coming out of Mississippi, missing civil rights workers. Strangely, a staged fight over a canned ham (or Hamm) erupts into an ACTUAL FIGHT! All the while, a bathing suit manufacturer is trying to pretend its 1954, not 1964... and Don Draper will have none of it. Its 1964, its the spring board to the most America's most turbulent decade in the 20th Century.

And the man who would be Don Draper is taking it all for a ride. His way. And that his ad agency, his myth-builders cannot live without him.

Its November 1964. The Republican Party just put right-wing radical as their candidate. He was DESTROYED. And suddenly, the Republican Party realized... as American Myth builders they could not live without Richard Nixon.

[Trebla]

I watched the first 3 season earlier this summer and was blown away by how awesome this show is. And last night didn't disapoint. I like how they have they use symbolism: Don watching the little cowboy in the jail on the commercial while Don himself is trapped as a divorced man with kids. I think he absolutely is punishing himself with the prostitute.

I found Betty to be a lot more sympathetic until last night's episode. She is, as you guys stated, acting very vindictive. Her shrug when Don said he wanted to see baby Gene was telling.

I wonder if we'll see any of the old gang from Sterling Cooper this season. Sadly, Sal would be out as a candidate as long as Lucky Strikes are their biggest client.

[Brude]

The original John & Marsha skit on YouTube. In case you're interested.

[Blaine]

Don is acting even more like a prima donna at work. The end of the episode where he starts to act like the "Bad Boy of Advertising" to the swimsuit guys and the reporter from the WSJ was very entertaining to watch and I think sets us up for a strong season.

Don tried being his usual cryptic self and it didn't work too well. As usual, Cooper nailed him the best for it. By the end of the episode, Don sees the light and begins creating an exciting, press-worthy persona - starting with Jantzen and ending with a bad boy story over Tobacco Road. Loved that.

As for the slapping hooker, Weiner had an interesting explanation for it in this interview at the Daily Beast:

Who knew that Don Draper liked to be slapped around in bed?

Weiner: I don’t know that he’s always liked it. We have a fantasy that Don Draper is a lothario who can go out and get any woman that he wants. We see from the date [with Anna Camp’s Bethany], that the world is different, that he has to put in the time if he wants to have a relationship with her… I think a man like that would turn to a professional. The actual nature of their sex is probably Don just trying to feel something. That he feels that he needs to be punished… This is a guy who, for the first time in his life, probably has complete control, in some level in his mind, and he wants to give it over.

Also, the John and Marsha bit was by Stan Freberg, who was himself an ad man and copywriter. There's all kinds of his clips available on Youtube.

All in all, a strong start to a new season. I've had fantasies about throwing idiot clients out of the building for my entire advertising career. Go Draper.

[Tears of Lys]

Great episode. It was pretty near flawless from beginning to end. Damn, I remember my friends and I doing that "John" "Marsha" bit! It was everywhere for a while.

I didn't see Don so much as believing his own press. To me it looked like he saw that the truth didn't work (with the first reporter), so he made up a great story, a beautiful and exciting illusion, for the WSJ reporter. And damned if it didn't work. He's back. The "Get out of my office!" scene, IMO, was a release of anger and tension that had built up from dealing with people who didn't want to know the truth. It was pretty funny to see everyone scurrying out.

The hooker/slapping scene didn't surprise me, actually. Many powerful men to whom others kowtow get off on being degraded sexually. (Don't ask me how I know this. I READ! :D)

[Iskaral Pust]

I missed most of the 3rd series (is it worth catching up on Netflix now?) but I could not resist watching last night. And now I have the DVR programmed so I won't fall behind on this series.

Great episode. I really like the way each series starts with a large time elapse and we have to get up to speed quickly on how the situation and people have changed.

Roger has the best lines, Bert is always the ultimate authority, Peggy and Pete have grown/developed in a very realistic way considering their ages and experience, Betty has become a completely unsympathetic character, Henry is about to find out how a marriage is a big step up from an affair, and Don is simultaneously lauded as the all-conquering hero (professionally) while stumbling a little in that episode.

I thought Betty's reluctance to move out of the house was because of her inability to handle so much change (which she projects onto the kids) rather than vengeance on Don. But I didn't see their break-up so I don't know how vindictive their relationship is right now.

I thought the background anxiety of a fledgling business was well handled, and might foreshadow sources of tension later in the series.

[Trebla]

Since I just started watching the show this summer, I have to stay I'm still in mourning over Chauncey the dog. Damn you to HELL, Duck!! :angry2: ;)

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Watching the first episode of season four, it really seems like the show has been catapulted into the future. I mean, obviously it has--by eleven months--but beyond that, the story's in a different place than it was at the end of last season.

Scenes at SCDP have a new, exciting energy that SC (deliberately) never had. Here everything rests on the next big play, and they could be shut down at any moment if Lee Garner, Jr. doesn't get to fuck a copywriter or something. This mirrors where I am right now in my career (except it's a tiny law firm, not a tiny ad agency), and I particularly appreciated "John"'s resigned "I guess I'm back to two days a week" when they found out that they lost the jai alai account. Pete and Peggy have both adjusted pretty well to the new reality. Peggy has a professional maturity well beyond where she was last season, and I imagine that the sort of doubts that led her to Duck are not nearly as pronounced. Pete too was somebody who was always butting up against or trying to subvert established rules (see his work for Admiral television last year, or his scheme to buy up time for Secor laxatives and sell it to the Nixon campaign in season one), so he's much more comfortable with the new mandate to take risks and see what sticks.

It's funny that although Don is responsible for SCDP more than anybody, he seems to be the least comfortable with the new set-up. Obviously he's a talented creative director, and in fact just had a big success creatively. But he doesn't want to recognize that he has to sell himself (here I agree with ToL), because that goes against his sense of privacy and propriety, and it's not until he realizes that this is jeopardizing the firm that he turns it around and begins to accept his need to become a celebrity with a dangerous, exciting image. (I assume that he threw out Jentzen in part to recount the story to the WSJ reporter later.)

Privately, it's interesting to see Don having gone a bit to seed. (The scenes of him alone in his apartment reminded me of Pete going stir-crazy in his apartment in last year's episode "Souvenir.") I like the observation of one reviewer that Don's most comfortable waiting for Betty and Henry to come home, angry that she's screwing him over. It's the one scene where Don knows the role that he's in, what his rights are, what his responsibilities are. The rest of the time, he's still figuring things out on the fly--how to have a relationship rather than an affair, how to be the acknowledged leader of a fledgling agency--and it's left him at odds with himself.

Re: Betty, I largely agree with Iskaral Pust. She doesn't know how to handle so much change, and so she's shut down a little bit and taken her anxieties out on the children. It was interesting to see a bit of Henry's side of things--although question, would a sixties guy really wear a suit over to his mother's if they were going to be moving furniture?--and how the children are adapting to her reign of terror: Sally's acting out, and trying to get around her; while poor Bobby is just trying to keep the peace. I'm a little wary of the storyline, since Betty has gotten to be so unlikable by now; and while that's not a problem in and of itself (was Livia Soprano likable? did it matter?), it makes me worried that she may get repetitive. (Having said that, MW said in an interview with Alan Sepinwall that she's less prominent this year than she was last year; and said that they'd give her roughly as much as time as she got in season one.) I think the smart move is to give Sally more of the storyline, since her position (dealing with a bully for a mother and a frequently absent unreliable father) is filled with dramatic potential.

And although Roger had a lot of great lines--this was one of their funnier episodes--my favorites were either Pete saying that he could use the expense account for the actresses if he said that they were whores; or Harry saying in despair, "If there _was_ a second floor, I'd throw myself off it."

Also, I was re-watching here and there in previous seasons over the past couple of weeks, and one of the things that struck me is how different characters were perceived in the early episodes. Sal of course started off as comic relief; but there was also a lot of animus directed toward Joan in those days, while Betty was seen as a generally sympathetic figure, a situation which has pretty much reversed itself by now.

[Rhom]

I missed most of the 3rd series (is it worth catching up on Netflix now?) but I could not resist watching last night. And now I have the DVR programmed so I won't fall behind on this series.

I would. Even though you now know the major plot points, the little stuff that happens in that season is amazing to watch. Don's acceptance of defeat when Betty finds his box. The entire episodes of "Guy Walks Into An Advertising Agency" and "The Gypsy and the Hobo" are fantastic.

The show is just so well written and acted that its worth watching for the small details even when you already know the grander picture.

[Iskaral Pust]

I would. Even though you now know the major plot points, the little stuff that happens in that season is amazing to watch. Don's acceptance of defeat when Betty finds his box. The entire episodes of "Guy Walks Into An Advertising Agency" and "The Gypsy and the Hobo" are fantastic.

The show is just so well written and acted that its worth watching for the small details even when you already know the grander picture.

I think I saw all three that you specifically mention, but perhaps I'll bump it up on the Netflix queue.

[ultraman7k]

anyone notice sally's lisp is gone?

i was choked when the episode ended. i want more mad men!

on that note, anyone going to watch Rubicon next week?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

anyone notice sally's lisp is gone?

Apparently the actress Kiernan Shipka lost her lisp naturally over the past year, so it's not the result of vocal training, just getting older.

[RedEyedGhost]

The original John & Marsha skit on YouTube. In case you're interested.

(Having said that, MW said in an interview with Alan Sepinwall

Thanks for those links both were very interesting.

:thumbsup:

(I assume that he threw out Jentzen in part to recount the story to the WSJ reporter later.)

I don't think he was thinking that far ahead. I think he was genuinely pissed that they wasted his time when his campaign could have made both Jentezen and SCDP a lot of money. It was the final straw in him realizing that he needed to step up and be the man at SCDP, and marketing himself to the WSJ is just one way of doing that.

I think I saw all three that you specifically mention, but perhaps I'll bump it up on the Netflix queue.

Definitely watch them. Season 3 is amazing.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I don't think he was thinking that far ahead. I think he was genuinely pissed that they wasted his time when his campaign could have made both Jentezen and SCDP a lot of money. It was the final straw in him realizing that he needed to step up and be the man at SCDP, and marketing himself to the WSJ is just one way of doing that.

That's possible. I don't think so though, because the Jentzen campaign that he came up with strikes me as having been set up to fail. Don's failed to convince clients before, but it's usually a misunderstanding (with Conrad Hilton) or the client changing his mind about an idea (with Patio or Bethlehem Steel). This campaign, on the other hand, was exactly what they said they didn't want. I think Don took the opportunity to draw the line in the sand.

[aeu]

I think I saw all three that you specifically mention, but perhaps I'll bump it up on the Netflix queue.

Have you checked the On-Demand section of your cable / FIOS / etc? Mine has all of season 3 available for another couple of weeks.

[Analu]

I've had fantasies about throwing idiot clients out of the building for my entire advertising career. Go Draper.

My BIL's in the advertising business and had the exact same reaction. Said that it's his and every ad-man's wet dream to do what Draper did to those bikini prudes. I can also understand the sentiment to an extent, being in the hospitality business.

Great season opener. Loved the ham bit (Pete's my favorite character on the show; he's just unintentionally hilarious all the time) and also seeing Don unable to close the deal and realizing that he'd have to work at it now (sidenote: my sis pointed out that his date was the vamp-hating preacher's wife from True Blood). Want to see more from Joan and maybe some familiar faces like Cosgrove and co. make guest appearances. Not really interested in the Betty storyline (she's getting pretty unlikable and is kind of a blank slate to me).

Can't wait till next week's ep.