[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion

[Derfel Cadarn]

Loved Jon and Ghost’s Lassie moment. “Is something wrong Ghost? Tell me, what’s wrong?”

Little Timmet was trapped down a well.

I thought the re-animated corpses were the wight walkers. In the hierarchy of scary there are 1.) wildlings, 2.) wight walkers, 3.) the Others. It seems like they’ve renamed the Others wight walkers as to not sound too much like Lost, so the re-animated corpses are just unnamed snow zombies. And there’s this confusion about wight/white.

To clarify, the re-animated corpses are wights, the Others are being called white walkers (not wight walkers) in the series (and at times in the books). Probably to avoid the Lost comparison.

[Morrigan]

In light of the complaints about sexual exposition I can't help to be amused at the lack of complaints about violent exposition, like Drogo literally ripping someone's throat out.

If that throat ripping lasted 5 minutes, I would certainly have complained. But it lasted a few seconds and served to show a) Khal Drogo's badnassness and B) Khal Drogo's savagery.

Yeah, people are reading way too much into this. If Targ blood equaled fire immunity, Aerion, Aegon V, the Queen who died in the Dance of the Dragons would never had died. Nothing in this show has disproved R+L=J, if anything, some of the extra Ned+Jon scenes in the beginning of the season along with his speaking with Robert along the Trident give the viewers some clear information that something is up with Jon's parentage.

Let me ask this, if Martin didn't intend that combination, what was the point of the TOJ in the books in the first place?

No kidding. Targ blood has never equated fire immunity, ever. Even GRRM said it was a one-time magical event with the funeral pyre.

I think it depends on the "girl". Looks-wise, my daughter squeals over Robb (and Theon) and doesn't care for Jon (because the actor doesn't look much like she pictured Jon in the books). Personally, I think Jon is the best looking of all the young men in the show, but I then like men with dark hair and eyes. I think Ned (Sean Bean) is the hottest man on the TV screen.

Ditto. The lads are good-looking and all, but even though they're closer to my age than Sean Bean is, I still find them too boyish looking. Sean Bean though.... SO. HOT. <3 <3 <3

However, this episode was mercifully absent a.) Roz, b.) boobiez, c.) sexposition (exposition paired with gratuitious sex scene) – so I’m not too upset that they skipped the raping part of raping and pillaging.

I actually thought they -should- have shown the rapes, at least a little. It's important to the story. I for one don't mind sex scenes if they are not gratuitous, and this wouldn't be gratuitous. It would be shocking and harsh, but it was meant to be. Funny how that got censored, but gratuitous les porn didn't... *shakes head*

The only nudity was Hodor! Which is hilarious.

I'm glad they kept that, it was amusing, but they should have made it clearer that he was bathing. For non-readers it just looks as if he arrives naked for no reason.

Did anyone else notice the expression on Bran’s face after Rob’s wolf ate Umber’s hand? Everyone was laughing at Umber’s “your meat is tough to cut” joke and Bran’s face is all “WTF, why is everyone laughing, I almost wet my pants”.

I did. :D Poor Bran, I wanted to hug him.

I thought the re-animated corpses were the wight walkers. In the hierarchy of scary there are 1.) wildlings, 2.) wight walkers, 3.) the Others. It seems like they’ve renamed the Others wight walkers as to not sound too much like Lost, so the re-animated corpses are just unnamed snow zombies. And there’s this confusion about wight/white.

White walkers, not wight walkers. I thought it was pretty obvious... the white walkers are the Others, and the reanimated corpses are the wights.

[Bronn Stone]

Well, you'll have to take that up with GRRM two times over. It's straight out of the book:

“Have no fear on that count, Lady Stark,” the Greatjon told her in his bass rumble. “Winterfell is safe. We’ll shove our swords up Tywin Lannister’s bunghole soon enough, begging your pardons, and then it’s on to the Red Keep to free Ned.”

Rockroi is definitely wrong about that one. Greatjon Umber is old enough to have been a role model-friend to Brandon Stark, and conceivably a younger friend of Lord Rickard. He probably called Eddard "Ned" from the time Eddard was a tyke. Eddard is no Tywin Lannister - he'd not get his panties in a twist over a perceived slight as small as that one.

[Sad King Billy]

Most of what I have to say has already been said. One thing I'd like to add: the Hodor scene; I don't think that was there for Hodor/nudity, but rather to make Osha more endearing to the audience. Her reaction/interest/humour personalises her, if it'd been left out, her little exposition to Brandon would have been too obvious, and she'd remain known as miss exposition to non-book readers.

Secondly, Varys. Did anyone else notice how his voice was very different from his 'small council' voice? More rough and less 'oily'. Well done by the actor who played him I think.

edit: also liked Tyrion's struggle to get to the wine.

[Derfel Cadarn]

In the scene where Cat returns to see Robb she is greated by the Lords of the North. In the scene, Greatjon scurries everyone out of the tent and then assures Cat that the army will soon march on KL and "free Ned."

Okay...

Who the FUCK is Ned? Why are you calling him Ned? Does Eddard Stark strike you as a guy who lets his bannermen call him "Ned?" Seriously? Asshole, his name is "Lord Eddard" or "Lord Stark." You don't call the guy "Ned" to anyone, INCLUDING his Lady wife!!! Again, sloppy writing, sloppy acting.

Um, that bit is taken almost verbatim from the books. The Greatjon refers to him as Ned. It's a direct quote or close to. Ned calls the King "Robert" at times, in the presence of the Queen. In the North they're maybe a bit less formal than parts of the south. Prince Doran is treated with some disrespect by family and commoners in AFfC.

[Morrigan]

Well, you'll have to take that up with GRRM two times over. It's straight out of the book:

“Have no fear on that count, Lady Stark,” the Greatjon told her in his bass rumble. “Winterfell is safe. We’ll shove our swords up Tywin Lannister’s bunghole soon enough, begging your pardons, and then it’s on to the Red Keep to free Ned.”

No kidding, and that's the by far the stupidest complain I've seen yet. It's entirely believable that many of Ned's bannermen would also be his friends (or at least, his father's friends), and the Greatjon is one of the most fiercely loyal Stark bannerman despite his rough manners; I can totally imagine him speaking about Ned in informal, familiar tones.

Edit: pretty hilarious at how outraged Rockroi is about something like that, and it's straight from the book too... and I thought I was nitpicky. :lol:

[Queen Dorothea]

As a straight male with a girlfriend and sister watching the show, I've heard that Jon is definitely the "hottest" on the show. Girls like those dark and dreary types these days. Robb is obviously a handsome fellow, but he has a prominent brow. :rolleyes:

Girls have liked dark and dreary types since the beginning of time

[theMountainGoat]

Things I loved:

• Syrio's fight was awesome. Just perfect.
  
• Interesting choice to not show Arya's escape of the castle, creates a little mystery for viewers to solve which should not be hard for those paying attention.
  
• Loved LOVED Drogo's fight scene. This was a change from the book that totally worked, in fact it was an improvement. Really appreciated the chance to see Drogo be bad-ass.
  
• Robb Stark gets a personality. Worth the wait for Robb to finally get the chance to come to the foreground and he was great in this episode.
  
• Loved Bran's look of horror after Greatjon had his fingers bitten off by Grey Wind, so good.
  
• Rickon delivered his line well, great job Art. Can't believe his mum let him watch that episode uncut, I'm sure his mother must have put her hands over his eyes when Hodor walked on screen :uhoh:
  
• Barristan rocked. Enough said.
  

Things I disliked:

• I know George wrote it but I still totally hate the change to Sansa's storyline. If that two second scene with the Hound was in some way meant to make up for their talk after the tourney being cut it totally failed on that score. I can only assume they did not have Sansa go tell Cersei about Ned's plan to leave King's Landing to make Sansa a more sympathetic character and avoid the hate and scorn she regularly gets around here. And if that is the reason then its bullshit. That for me was Sansa's defining moment, the reason for her character being who she is. A totally believable act for her character and one I don't hate her for at all. In my opinion the show is poorer for not having gone that way. I'm sure some will disagree with that opinion but whatever.
  
• Disliked the wight attack simply because there was no cold. I know minor complaint but I always felt that the temperature dropping, the breath misting before Jon really did a lot to amp up the atmosphere and terror of that scene. That was true in the prologue too. This is the Ice man, it needs to be colder!
  
• Tyrion's scenes were very disappointing. They got the gist of what happens across but with such economy of dialogue that much of the brilliant humour was lost in the process, a real shame I think. The choice of locations for the high road seemed bizarre to me, not so much a barren rocky road as a lush forest, yeah another minor nitpick. I'm sure a lot of people will hate that they cut Tyrion telling Bronn about Tysha. I wonder if they might have him tell that story to Shae instead, not sure how I feel about that idea, it might work, I dunno. Or they just might save the story for next season instead.
  
• While I loved the choice to end the episode with Sansa's plea I kind of wish someone had suggested that Ned could join the Night's Watch if he said what they wanted him to say. I know that is not in the book but it really would have given viewers the impression that this is what will happen. The episode ended on such an ominous note that now viewers have a week to ponder on what will happen and may lean towards Ned getting the chop, it might not be quite the surprise it might have been had the red herring been thrown out there this week.
  

[snowzombie]

I actually thought they -should- have shown the rapes, at least a little. It's important to the story. I for one don't mind sex scenes if they are not gratuitous, and this wouldn't be gratuitous. It would be shocking and harsh, but it was meant to be. Funny how that got censored, but gratuitous les porn didn't... *shakes head*

White walkers, not wight walkers. I thought it was pretty obvious... the white walkers are the Others, and the reanimated corpses are the wights.

That's what I said re: the raping, it was unclear that the women in that scene were going to be brutalized beyond being dragged around by the hair. There didn't seem to be as much at stake. The woman on the show was screaming because she was getting dragged around, not because she was being gang raped.

I just looked wight up in the dictionary:

noun [usu. with adj. ] archaic or dialect

a person of a specified kind, esp. one regarded as unfortunate : he always was an unlucky wight.

• poetic/literary a spirit, ghost, or other supernatural be

So that makes sense, it can be used as a noun. But wight is an obscure word, and people watching the show who haven't read the books are going to hear, "They are whites," and wonder why an adjective is being used as a noun.

Thanks for the clarification on white walkers vs wights :)

[Été]

Tyrion's scenes were very disappointing. They got the gist of what happens across but with such economy of dialogue that much of the brilliant humour was lost in the process, a real shame I think. The choice of locations for the high road seemed bizarre to me, not so much a barren rocky road as a lush forest, yeah another minor nitpick. I'm sure a lot of people will hate that they cut Tyrion telling Bronn about Tysha. I wonder if they might have him tell that story to Shae instead, not sure how I feel about that idea, it might work, I dunno. Or they just might save the story for next season instead.

It's not how the Vale is described but the important bit is that it's away from civilisation. That looks like more of Tollymore Forest Park to me (my family used to go for walks up there when I was a kid). Just handy for filming.

[brokor]

Loved the episode, although imo those cool fade-outs and transitions that we saw are overused (dont know anything about scenography or directing, just my personal opinion).

story wise, sansa should not appear used and taken advantage of. she did this, make her the villain she is!

tyrion and bron moments lacked in this episode. we never rly knew tyrion up untill this trip he took down from the eyrie.

loved arya and osha in this episodes. the actresses are ideal for their respective roles. would want less cries after arya leaves syrio cause now the episode made me think syrio died, while in the book i never rly knew.

Once again, Littlefinger seems way too mean for what i think he really is. He is just an opportunist and a schemist bastard. it is not like him to straight-forward betray or threaten someone.

On the northern from, i think the scene 2 episodes back with theon and robb served its role. however i have still to see robb become a king. he is still a lordling massing an army. also the prisoner situation made him look foolish while it is all a part of his plan.

John fought bravely but we didnt rly see the supernatural side of the wights. as someone mentioned earlier, the breath, the cold, the blue eyes, they just spooked me in the books. also friends who havent read the books got rly confused with white walkers and wights.

Lastly, someone should say that Ned would peopably take the black. now when he dies people arent gonna be so surprised.

however we get an excellent setting for joffrey being the ultimate mean bastard god-abiding killer-traitor. man that kid looks the part.

sry for my english, not my native language.

[Wunhopkuendo]

First things first, the next person that complains about a wooden sword is going to find me putting a helmet on their head and smacking them upside it with one of mine. After that, and while their ears are ringing and are filled with a complete lack of orientation, I am going to use the same piece of wood to bust apart both knee caps, elbows, shins, and perhaps a few fingers for good measure. Seriously, stop talking if you have no idea what it means to be hit with a wooden sword by a trained swordsman.

Phew, now I can remark on the actual show. I agree with everyone here about the stableboy killing; however, my non book reading wife gasped when it happened and said "oh poor Arya." So perhaps that message came across just fine. Along those lines, I also thought the wight scene was not nearly scary enough, but it scared the shit out of her. She is my non reader sounding board and has led me to believe that we readers are seriously underestimating their ability to intuit what is happening just because they haven't read the books. Shame on us.

Which leads me to another point. I keep thinking that Stanis is going to be a mystery if he ever shows up, until my wife said "do you think Stanis will rescue Ned?" I didn't think she had a clue who Stanis was, but apparently I was wrong. Too bad for her she guessed wrong on that one. I can't wait to see her face when Ned loses his head.

[Tyrion Thr Terrible]

they left the opening for Syrio to have escaped there. way cool scene.

I thought GRRM did as well in the book?

[Merentha]

First things first, the next person that complains about a wooden sword is going to find me putting a helmet on their head and smacking them upside it with one of mine. After that, and while their ears are ringing and are filled with a complete lack of orientation, I am going to use the same piece of wood to bust apart both knee caps, elbows, shins, and perhaps a few fingers for good measure. Seriously, stop talking if you have no idea what it means to be hit with a wooden sword by a trained swordsman.

All true enough, but this is also on television, where people have a tendency to receive broad slashing wounds through steel plate. It doesn't look like he smacks them around and they get completely disoriented, it looks (and sounds!) like he slashed their throats open. There's also the element where being hit on the head by a trained swordsman is...part of training to be a swordsman. Yes, grab a boarder and ring their helmet, and they'll be disoriented as shit. They won't drop as if they've been poleaxed, especially since helms are padded and designed to resist just that. Then, yeah, go break the boarders' unarmored fingers, knee caps, and shins. Pity the people in the show were armored. You're overestimating the effects of the wooden weapons. If the television producers aren't going to play realistic with weapons or swords at any other point in the series, why should they suddenly do so? Syrio could have beaten those guards, sure. But it should have looked different from if he'd been armed with a steel blade, because it would have been.

:fencing:

[Été]

Which leads me to another point. I keep thinking that Stanis is going to be a mystery if he ever shows up, until my wife said "do you think Stanis will rescue Ned?" I didn't think she had a clue who Stanis was, but apparently I was wrong. Too bad for her she guessed wrong on that one. I can't wait to see her face when Ned loses his head.

A classmate came up to me today, not having seen the new ep, and said, "So, I guess this episode is all about them busting Ned out?"

I was like, ooh, well he's only just been arrested, they have to gather the troops.

"Ah. Must be next episode then. It's stupid when the writers try to do stuff like this: he's the main character, I mean, we all know he's gonna be out in time to be totally hardcore in the finale!"

Yes he does talk like that, and oh to be a fly on the wall next week! ;)

[JayDubya]

Oh, one scene that I liked was when the ravens all flew from Winterfell, calling the banners. It didn't really add anything to the plot, but it was (in my mind) an excellent visual. Gave me chills.

On the other hand, for a 8000 year old castle with 100-foot walls, Winterfell looks a little puny.

[Tyrion Thr Terrible]

A classmate came up to me today, not having seen the new ep, and said, "So, I guess this episode is all about them busting Ned out?"

I was like, ooh, well he's only just been arrested, they have to gather the troops.

"Ah. Must be next episode then. It's stupid when the writers try to do stuff like this: he's the main character, I mean, we all know he's gonna be out in time to be totally hardcore in the finale!"

Yes he does talk like that, and oh to be a fly on the wall next week! ;)

I'm having a similar experience with a co-worker who I turned on to the books, yesterday he was about 50 pages away from the learning the truth about Ned, and he was trying to figure out who and how he was going to get busted out. I so want to be there as well when he learns the truth!

[Été]

I'm having a similar experience with a co-worker who I turned on to the books, yesterday he was about 50 pages away from the learning the truth about Ned, and he was trying to figure out who and how he was going to get busted out. I so want to be there as well when he learns the truth!

My housemate is reading AGoT and I've been teasing loads without spoiling. They spoke to a mate from home who promptly asked if they'd got to the bit where Ned dies, then said not to get too attached to any of the Starks and spoiled the fall of Winterfell, the Red Wedding and the Purple Wedding. :(

Said housemate's girlfriend is now watching the series and I will make do with enjoying her reaction!

[Tywin's bastard]

Agreed. Also, the "sexposition" that everyone objects to so much isn't just the showing of sex, it's the technique of putting a sex scene in the background when you want to do some plot exposition. If they had scenes where characters explained something about the backstory at lenght in the middle of a violent fight, I'm sure people would mock that too.

That's incorrect, I know what I've read (and it goes way beyond the Littlefinger scene) and there's been enough of it to make John Bradley say some well chosen words on it in the WIC interview. I must have been stepping on some toes though since this is the second person that hasn't said the things I laughed at but still felt the need to defend himself. That always makes you wonder if you've hit on something thought but not yet said since otherwise there's no reason to get defensive.

[Asarlai]

Which leads me to another point. I keep thinking that Stanis is going to be a mystery if he ever shows up, until my wife said "do you think Stanis will rescue Ned?" I didn't think she had a clue who Stanis was, but apparently I was wrong. Too bad for her she guessed wrong on that one. I can't wait to see her face when Ned loses his head.

I've been watching with my father, who had a thought that when Dany and the Dothraki took the kingdom, they'd do something like "Let the poor bastards in the dungeon out," but now he seems to think it'll be more like Robb or Stannis or Varys. Yeah, next episode is gonna be tough... Especially since Ned is probably the best-liked character for non-readers, from what I've seen. Then again, he was my favorite character at that point, too. Makes me realize how much the series has changed from the conflicts of early-mid GoT to the wars.