[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion

[Queen Dorothea]

I liked Barristan dismissal a lot and i think Cersei is just so perfectly done by Lena it is scary.

Hound - he'll be bigger in Season 2 I am sure.

The SanSan scene was really good I thought and I am what one might call an "educated shipper" in that department.

There is one thing bothering me and that is how small the make Westeros look.

They are hiking from, say Berlin to Paris, and it seems so easily done.

[Popgun]

10 pages and no one mentions how R+L=J has just been disproven by this episode?

When Jon throws the fire at the wight, he clearly gasps in pain from the heat. This would be a *very* odd detail to include - by the author himself, no less - if they want to make it canon that Targaryens are down with fire.

Well we've seen Dany go into a bath that was too hot for anyone else. Holding dragon eggs totally oblivious to the heat and being unharmed by it. Viserys wasn't a true dragon so he died. When Jon grabbed the lantern he was in pain from the flames instantly. So anyone trying to say he's Rhaegars son and one of the heads of the dragon is interpretting it wrong.

The series has done a good job of disproving R+L=J. I don't think GRRM ever intended for that theory to take off. Which is why the TOJ scene has never been in the tv series. GRRM and HBO obviously realize that a lot of readers got confused by TOJ and don't want the viewers coming up with the same far fetched theory.

As for the rest of the show I loved it. I thought Syrio most likely died when I read the books. I've changed my mind now though and think he did escape.

My one little nitpick was Arya's first kill. In the book she did it deliberately which I liked better than her accidently stabbing the boy.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

I think they are going to make Mirri's "healing" even more diabolic by having her be directly responsible for the wound becoming sickly and festered, despite being just a small gash. So she'll be killing him from the start.

I think you're right.

[Greywolf2375]

having a bad time with the SQL error

Loved the episode, opening scene with Syrio & Arya was great. Ironically, in the show it looks like Trant is more to Syrio's equal than the book gave. Trant catching the blade and having time to crush it...well...

was hoping for a ToJ scene, might have one more shot but looks like no joy.

why is it when Varys is on screen with a hat I see Stego?

Sam's cowardice around...anything...seems to have corrected itself in some ways. Similar to Jon's hand, not every detail has to be word for word and I like how they have been able to crop out pieces that are really just color rather than content.

Hodor's coloring made him look like one of the black brothers they had just dragged back, little too light.

Going to be nice when Pycelle's beard gets snicked, man is he a snake.

Minor, but I liked all of the ravens leaving Winterfell.

Lysa is played crazy quite well.

Been said before....Tyrion & Bronn are a perfect match.

Shagga I pictured as darker, but loved how they looked. Missed having Chella's comment in Tywins tent :)

He doesn't have a whole lot to do, but the actor playing Grenn I really like.

would prefer Ghost being silent, but meh...

gotta think that Snow is the biggest wuss around based on his grabbing the lantern. Changes like that I like - don't have to have the whole tower burning or Jons hand get mangled. Can easily have Mormont be thankful and still give the sword without the backstory of it having the pommel melted.

the changes in how Drogo get his wound seem odd - Drogo fighting his own to back his khaleesi is powerful in showing how much their relationship has changed. and yeah...Drogo is a bad ass. bad. ass. Nice seeing the differences in the arahks just like with the knights broadswords.

Umber v. Greywind. Win. Actor playing Robb did that scene and his stare down very well. Not sure why later on they had Umber challenge him again after losing the fingers.

Rickon, the Chuck Cunningham of Westeros.

I think, if in the end, Hodor gets killed that will be the saddest death.

"Bronn..son of...." "You wouldn't know him..." classic.

thought the "some men take their oaths.." comment and cut to Theon was nice.

Barristan rocks. Can't wait to see how they handle the change to Arstan - seeing his face this much in order to have it be a surprise will mean a pretty impressive beard.

[Greywolf2375]

once wasn't good enough....

[Greywolf2375]

3rd times the charm

[Ser Warpechowski]

The point of a helmet is to keep your skull from shattering, or being slashed open, when you are hit. Armor won't make you able to take the blows without feeling them (especially not the helmets), it's main purpose is to keep you alive. Medieval knights often surrendered when they were beaten because they could be beaten down but it was very hard to kill them until they were already beaten (which means there's time to surrender).

The medieval helmet wasnt just metal, there was a padded cloth inside to reduce damage by blunt trauma. Not only this reduces pain sensation but also the damage and possible concussions.

Nonetheless, blund weapons like maces and warhammer did a lot of damage to heavy armor like helmets and plate, while swords barely did any damage. Spears are awesome weapons and very good against chainmail, but you hardly see spear wielders in fantasy anywhere, even spear being an awesome weapon. Everyone just cares about swords <_<

[Greywolf2375]

In light of the complaints about sexual exposition I can't help to be amused at the lack of complaints about violent exposition, like Drogo literally ripping someone's throat out.

For me the difference is that they then didn't have Drogo tear open Mago's chest and rip out his spleen and heart after the tongue. Showing a scene of sex is fine, showing a scene of violence is fine - it is when they extend a scene like that without reason.

[Mad Queen]

After sleeping on it, I think my main complaint with the episode is like my complaints from Eps 2-4; too much, too quickly.

I agree. I was expecting more from the fight between Jon and the wight. It was so much more exciting in the book. On the other hand, I don't have any major issues with this episode and I think GRRM did an overall good job of adapting his story to the screen. No Roz at all and no "sexposition", as people have been saying. I wish GRRM had written episode 7 instead of this one, because the last one had more important stuff going on.

[End of Disc One]

Well we've seen Dany go into a bath that was too hot for anyone else. Holding dragon eggs totally oblivious to the heat and being unharmed by it. Viserys wasn't a true dragon so he died. When Jon grabbed the lantern he was in pain from the flames instantly. So anyone trying to say he's Rhaegars son and one of the heads of the dragon is interpretting it wrong.

The series has done a good job of disproving R+L=J. I don't think GRRM ever intended for that theory to take off. Which is why the TOJ scene has never been in the tv series. GRRM and HBO obviously realize that a lot of readers got confused by TOJ and don't want the viewers coming up with the same far fetched theory.

Lol, R+L=J is disproven just because the fire hurt Jon? Fire hurts Viserys too--does that mean he's not of Targaryen blood?

[Fiddler's Green]

Lol, R+L=J is disproven just because the fire hurt Jon? Fire hurts Viserys too--does that mean he's not of Targaryen blood?

Yeah, people are reading way too much into this. If Targ blood equaled fire immunity, Aerion, Aegon V, the Queen who died in the Dance of the Dragons would never had died. Nothing in this show has disproved R+L=J, if anything, some of the extra Ned+Jon scenes in the beginning of the season along with his speaking with Robert along the Trident give the viewers some clear information that something is up with Jon's parentage.

Let me ask this, if Martin didn't intend that combination, what was the point of the TOJ in the books in the first place?

[Regina]

Still the fastest hour on TV! I really hope they go to 12 eps for future seasons, so the writers have more room to breathe.

My only quibbles were

1) Arya/stableboy scene (as mentioned several times) was too quick

2) I couldn't help but wonder why Uncle Kevin looked much older than Tywin

3) Hodor's nakedness seemed random. Don't mind my giant, naked servant wandering the Godswood, lol. If they had showed him getting out of the pools or something, it wouldn't have felt so out of place, imo.

But I loved everything else. More wolves, more Northmen, even little Rickon! And they didn't break my heart by showing Syrio die on screen. :fencing: Not today!

[Tywin's bastard]

The medieval helmet wasnt just metal, there was a padded cloth inside to reduce damage by blunt trauma. Not only this reduces pain sensation but also the damage and possible concussions.

Nonetheless, blund weapons like maces and warhammer did a lot of damage to heavy armor like helmets and plate, while swords barely did any damage. Spears are awesome weapons and very good against chainmail, but you hardly see spear wielders in fantasy anywhere, even spear being an awesome weapon. Everyone just cares about swords <_<

Yes, but it still only goes so far. Add the normal amount of exaggeration of on-screen fighting and you'll end up somewhere in the ballpark of this scene. I wouldn't have minded a bit more attacks towards the unprotected parts of the face but I wasn't too bothered with what they did as I found it entertaining.

As for swords it was a very versatile weapon though. All from slashing and stabbing to grabbing the blade and using it as a "pick axe" or hook to trip up weapons or foes. I think all the advanced medieval combat manuals focused on swords (although it's in part of course due to the symbolism of that weapon). I agree that it's best to put a spear into a normal soldier's hands though as it's a great weapon. Luckily they are using it a bit in this show.

For me the difference is that they then didn't have Drogo tear open Mago's chest and rip out his spleen and heart after the tongue. Showing a scene of sex is fine, showing a scene of violence is fine - it is when they extend a scene like that without reason.

Although scenes like this Drogo one is pure exposition of violence, while all the sex ones have been including others.

[Ser Greguh]

And here you see, I think the show has all but confirmed R+L=J, and that the primary reason for no TOJ flashback is that it would make it too obvious. This comes mostly with the scene between Jon and Ned where they say goodbye. Jon asks Ned about his mother and in Ned's reply he is on the verge of tears, by far and away the most emotion that Bean has been allowed to show. Contrast this with when Robert asks him about the "common girl he bedded" and his reaction is just cold annoyance.

In the books Catelyn supposes that whoever Jon's mother was, Ned must have loved her very much; R+L=J detractors usually need to dismiss that as incorrect, or explain away how this girl that Ned was so passionately in love with that he forsook his sacred marriage vow doesn't get a single mention in fifteen Ned POV chapters (contrasted with Lyanna, whom Ned thinks of all the time). The scene between Jon and Ned all but screams from the rooftops that Ned indeed loved Jon's mother very much, which aligns very much with R+L=J and makes the arguments against it all the much more tortured and difficult.

Nobody that I am aware of has ever reasonably supposed that being a Targaryen automatically makes you immune to fire; if this were the case R+L=J would have been dead in the first book as Jon burns his hand almost exactly as it is depicted in the show. This is such a ridiculous strawman that I almost have to think the people making it are consciously trolling.

[Unsullier]

I concur, the rapport between Tyrion and Bronn is coming together perfectly. I always got that feel from the books; they are best friends but cannot admit it to one another. If it was a given that Peter Dinklage was to play Tyrion (perfect call by the way), then the casting of Bronn needed to be very thorough. So far, a success!

My wife said "We've seen Theon and Hodor. When do we get all of Jon Snow?"

My response: "Its too cold up there."

[Ser Greguh]

For me the difference is that they then didn't have Drogo tear open Mago's chest and rip out his spleen and heart after the tongue. Showing a scene of sex is fine, showing a scene of violence is fine - it is when they extend a scene like that without reason.

It seems to me that people are much quicker to assume that a sex scene is without reason than they are to assume the same about a violent scene.

[Greywolf2375]

Nobody that I am aware of has ever reasonably supposed that being a Targaryen automatically makes you immune to fire; if this were the case R+L=J would have been dead in the first book as Jon burns his hand almost exactly as it is depicted in the show. This is such a ridiculous strawman that I almost have to think the people making it are consciously trolling.

That has been brought up numerous times - being a Targ = immune to fire, usually directly from discussions around Dany's egg scene. Might be you've just been lucky enough to miss them.

[Ser Greguh]

That has been brought up numerous times - being a Targ = immune to fire, usually directly from discussions around Dany's egg scene. Might be you've just been lucky enough to miss them.

Key word: reasonably.

[End of Disc One]

Is it true that girls think Jon is better looking than Robb? It seems that way from this board. I'm a straight male, but I think Robb is much better looking.

[Lokhtar]

Only complaint was the speed, but that's what you get with only 10 episodes. The only way around it would have been to cut out a major plotline, which would have resulted in a much bigger shitstorm from these forums...so it's pretty much the best they can do without going to 12 or 13 episodes (which is HBO's decision based on the budget).