[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion

[Talleyrand]

Also, Soldiers in Westeros seem to be rather rude, they just keep on bursting in on their commanders without even knocking or waiting to be let in.

[The hairy bear]

Syrios last stand is almost a direct translation from the book to the screen, so anybody who is upset with it should probably go re-read the book or just not talk so much.

I don't think that anyone who criticizes something that happens as in the books should "not talk so much".

But in any case, it's all in the execution. We can read in the books how Syrio beats four men-at-arms, but still imagine it that he has done it with great effort and with a certain dose of luck. You can also imagine that those men were lightly armored, ill-treined, and caught of guard. That was my interpretation, at least. The tv version had Syrio doing it almost effortlessly and without any trace of fear, and I wasn't satisfied with it. In fact, It shouldn't have been much difficult for tv Syrio to pick one of the real swords from the fallen guardsmen to face Trant. Instead, he decided to be cool, throw the bad-ass line of not running away, and face death as if he wasn't worried at all.

[Ser Greguh]

I will agree with those that were disappointed by the scene between Arya and the stableboy. Nothing to do with either of the actors, but rather with the showrunners and director, who seem to have willfully changed it from a deliberate and purposeful (albeit justified) killing to more of an accident. The scene is such an important moment in the development of Arya's character, and the fact that Arya willingly and without reservation chooses to kill the stableboy so that she might escape is a powerful source of much of that importance. They also should have given Maisie more of a moment to reflect on it, the "What have I done?" moment that transitions into the decision that she's okay with doing what needs to be done.

It's possible that the changes to this scene were the result of limited time availability with the child actors (who were really at the heart of this episode), which is understandable, but it's a shame that one of the most powerful scenes in the first book seems to have been muted as a result. At least I hope that scene wasn't representative of the full creative vision of the filmmakers, as I can more easily forgive logistical setbacks than I can creative misfires.

I'm pretty sure that's the only complaint I have about the episode, though, which is saying something.

[Ser Greguh]

I don't think that anyone who criticizes something that happens as in the books should "not talk so much".

But in any case, it's all in the execution. We can read in the books how Syrio beats four men-at-arms, but still imagine it that he has done it with great effort and with a certain dose of luck. You can also imagine that those men were lightly armored, ill-treined, and caught of guard. That was my interpretation, at least. The tv version had Syrio doing it almost effortlessly and without any trace of fear, and I wasn't satisfied with it. In fact, It shouldn't have been much difficult for tv Syrio to pick one of the real swords from the fallen guardsmen to face Trant. Instead, he decided to be cool, throw the bad-ass line of not running away, and face death as if he wasn't worried at all.

Syrio likely isn't trained in the use of a longsword; he's a master, but an extreme specialist, and perhaps felt that he had a better chance with the wooden training sword.

[Ser Warpechowski]

The Syrio fighting scene was a bit weird, mostly because I don't think it looked believable at all that he knocked out all those armored men with a wooden sword.

That is how it happens in the book.

[Panjer]

Amazing episode, loved all the introductions, hurray for the Greatjon!

The Jon/Othor fight was a bit weird, I loved how Jon casually threw the lantern at him. :D

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Osha seems to know a bit too much about the wind. Perhaps she can control it, with only her mind. I think she has some "Old Gods" powers, she is a priestess of some sort.

Is this a joke or serious comment?

[Hodor was not needed]

I think it was supposed to be a funny moment, so I wouldn't say it was completely needless. I think it was funny in the book and they managed to make it funny onscreen as well. Whether you think it was funny or not is another matter, though.

It is taken directly from the books, but I always thought the reason for it was to show Bran that there are others than humans beyond the wall. Sure Osha can "say" it, but when she points out that Hodor is part giant, it makes them more real and helps a young and sheltered boy invision them.

I always thought this was a very important part of Bran's education. it is his first lesson about the things he will need to know when he goes beyond the wall.

[The Anti-Targ]

Ha ha, I wonder if George changed Syrio's deception from left to right to see if that would be a nitpick. I just read that Arya chapter today before the episode aired so I distinctly remember Syrio saying left but attacking right. Tee hee funny little changes. Great final scene with Syrio.

Disappointed not to get the Tysha story...yet?

One thing I'm glad George cleaned up was the burning of the wight. Seemed dumb in the book that Jon had to toss the lamp on a curtain then throw that on the wight. Just tossing the lamp onto the wight directly as in the TV show is how it always should have been.

I'm disappointed George didn't leave in Sansa's first betrayal, and also disappointed he didn't have Cersei show Sansa the letter that was meant to be delivered to Stannis. I wonder if in this version the letter will get to Stannis and we'll see a 10 second scene with Stannis and Mel reading the letter, after the closing credits of Ep 10. Or something like that.

I think Drogo's wound should have been a little larger, it really did seem like just a wee scratch. And seems very odd that there are no healers among the Dothraki. Great fight, beating him bare handed awesomeness, and a fatality worthy of Mortal Kombat.

A bit of a bugger Barristan doesn't deliver his final words about going to serve the true king.

Great intro to the Greatjon, hard to see it done better given the time constraints.

A good episode by George over all.

[Ramsay Bolton]

I really liked the Rickon scene, it really hit home with how sad and alone they are now. Not sure why they didn't include him more earlier, but I'm looking forward to more scenes now that only him and Bran remain at Winterfell.

Other awesomeness: Drogo, Robb, Bronn and the joke about his father. Tyrion scenes were great as always.

Didn't really like Arya with the stableboy, seemed it was over so quickly. Its a huge moment in her personal story arc. The wall scenes were also a little "meh" this time around.

[JagfyrBlackfyre]

I will agree with those that were disappointed by the scene between Arya and the stableboy. Nothing to do with either of the actors, but rather with the showrunners and director, who seem to have willfully changed it from a deliberate and purposeful (albeit justified) killing to more of an accident. The scene is such an important moment in the development of Arya's character, and the fact that Arya willingly and without reservation chooses to kill the stableboy so that she might escape is a powerful source of much of that importance.

I'll certainly second this critique of Arya's critical scene. Overall it does strike me as way too rushed, especially for anyone who hasn't read the books. This moment is crucial in Arya's development within the overall arc of the series, and to make it seem so happenstance doesn't seem right. Its her crucial step from green to mean, and she certainly does get quite mean as her development progresses.

Although this episode was excellent and extremely packed with crucial scenes and occurrences, I would have gladly seen a sacrifice of time spent on other scenes (i.e. Joffrey holding court or Dothraki Pillaging). Another oddity that struck me in this scene was that Arya did not take the wooden practice sword along with her as well. In the books she keeps needle hidden while in King's landing and initially on the way north, and uses the wooden sword to primarily defend herself. A minor detail but still something I could not help but notice. With regards to details, I'm very glad that Syrio's fate was left open ended. Partly to keep all those speculating about his true identity continually unsure, and also because it was a badass way to give the character his screen exit.

[Ser Warpechowski]

Some good shit. This episode definitely seemed more "nerdy" to me in terms of the little details, which of course makes sense. I think non-readers may be reeling a bit.

So, Robb has 18,000 against Tywin's 60,000? Is that how it was in the books? I didn't realize the odds were quite that bad. So how is it that Robb is able to defeat Jaime's superior force? Is it the fact that Jaime's forces are split, or the element of surprise, or just superior tactics? Anyone with a better memory than me?

He sends his foot to deal with Tywin while taking his cavalry to deal with Jaime. Then he gets 1.000 horse and 3.000 foot in the Twins from Lord Frey. Sets an ambush at the Whispering Woods where he captures Jaime and kills some of his men. Then he goes to Riverun where Jaime´s army is in three diferent camps. They manage to almost destroy two of these camps and the people on the third run away. They dont offer numbers but they say that Jaime´s host was almost completely destroyed, while Bolton´s, even after fighting with Tywin, remains operational.

[em388480]

I don't think that anyone who criticizes something that happens as in the books should "not talk so much".

But in any case, it's all in the execution. We can read in the books how Syrio beats four men-at-arms, but still imagine it that he has done it with great effort and with a certain dose of luck. You can also imagine that those men were lightly armored, ill-treined, and caught of guard. That was my interpretation, at least. The tv version had Syrio doing it almost effortlessly and without any trace of fear, and I wasn't satisfied with it. In fact, It shouldn't have been much difficult for tv Syrio to pick one of the real swords from the fallen guardsmen to face Trant. Instead, he decided to be cool, throw the bad-ass line of not running away, and face death as if he wasn't worried at all.

This was also the low-point for me as the guards were all in heavy armor - whats the point of your helmet it a wooden swords can send you flying while wearing it?

[JagfyrBlackfyre]

I think Drogo's wound should have been a little larger, it really did seem like just a wee scratch. And seems very odd that there are no healers among the Dothraki. Great fight, beating him bare handed awesomeness, and a fatality worthy of Mortal Kombat.

The wound did not strike me as nearly as bad as in the books. He basically had his left nipple cut off along with enough of his pec to expose the muscle fiber underneath. Plus there was the arrow in his arm, but that can slide given the general change in circumstances. The Dothraki have Eunuch healers as well as women to help out those who are hurt in battle. In the books Drogo told them off before Dany arrived, but I guess on TV they just weren't convenient. To lend some credence to the severity of the wound on TV, in an age without antibiotics, a wound like that could become gangrenous/infected to the point of eventually causing full on bacterial sepsis if you didn't sick some leeches on it. Plus, after pillaging and plundering, who knows where that arakh has been. Totally agree on the Mortal Kombat-ness of Drogo's kill. Wasn't it Scorpion who had a fatality like that with the tongue coming out?

[sadfascist]

has no one mentioned the epic shot of the Wall?

"The White Walkers sleep beneath the ice for thousands of years, and when they wake up... I hope the Wall's high enough."

And everyone looks up and it goes up and up forever into the sky. Chilling!

[em388480]

Probably my least favorite episode of the season:

*No memorable new scenes.

*Going all over the place.

*Tyrion not mentioning Tysha.

*Shagga not talking about cuting of manhood and feeding it to goats.

*Violence against Lharazaan ridicilously toned down.

*Jorah not mentioning Rheagar.

*Sandor not being named replacement straight away.

I know this is nerd rage but presumbly original author can be the laest creative person when it comes to translating his own work.

All of this is nerd rage.

Not one of the points you mentioned would have changed anything.

[GoTreviews]

Let me just ditto The Hairy Bear. George lets readers decide what they want about how they feel regarding characters... but he has very explicitly said he's a bit annoyed by readings of the characters which claim they're whiny or that you're supposed to dislike them. No, you can dislike them if you want, but he never wrote either of them with the intention of driving people into disliking them.

Still there are things in the early Sansa's chapters that are bound to make readers dislike her. During the Hand's tournament, she really shows her insensitive side (when seeing her first man die, and then ignoring a wounded one because she just can't stop watchin Loras). I'm not sure that's enough to say she's "meant" to be disliked, but I do believe she's quite the monster, in terms of sensibility.

edit:

What was that 5 second scene of Ned in the dungeon being kicked by a guard? Is this to let us know that the Lannisters are torturing Ned with sleep deprivation. Seemed like it was left in by accident.

AH! thank you! I tried to talk about this with a couple of friends, none of them remembered the scene... thought I hallucinated it :D

[Bubba]

Why wasn't Mormont wearing pajamas? In the book he is sleepy and groggy, While last night he just stood there dressed in his normal clothes and did nothing. Great episode though.

[Aeron Greyjoy]

Wasn't it Scorpion who had a fatality like that with the tongue coming out?

[Kaitscralt]

To the people claiming that Syrio defeated the city men too easily, just rewatch the scene. He didn't even knock most of them out, I'd guess. By the time he is facing Trant, it looks the like guards are getting to their feet.

[Ser Warpechowski]

10 pages and no one mentions how R+L=J has just been disproven by this episode?

When Jon throws the fire at the wight, he clearly gasps in pain from the heat. This would be a *very* odd detail to include - by the author himself, no less - if they want to make it canon that Targaryens are down with fire.

(Actually, I don't think this means anything, and Viserys was shown to feel heat as well, but 'he was no dragon'. This was just such an odd detail to put in if they want us to believe that Jon is Targaryen and a dragon's head or whatnot.)

In the books, unlike the TV series, Dany doesnt seen to be imune to fire. Actually the only scene where she endures fire unharmed is when the dragons are born. THere arent other scenes showing she is imune to fire.

Also, in the books Jon gets harmed by the fire, its not something from the TV series.