[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion

[zippypoodle]

I was very annoyed when they retconned Sansa's treachery out in Episode 7. Most of you said we'll hear about it later, from Cersei.

Well... maybe. But the clock is ticking. We'll see.

I thought the Sansa "betrayal" was a bit redundant anyway. Ned had already told Cersei he knew--the only thing the extra information did was let her know he was about to make his move, which she had to already know anyway. It wouldn't bother me really if that were changed for the show since the writers seem to be taking a slightly different direction with show Sansa than we see with book Sansa.

[Ser Warpechowski]

I'll take it a step further and say that the prevalence of hate toward some characters at times makes me absolutely ashamed to be a member of this fanbase, and sometimes makes it difficult to justify from an adult perspective. It's just such an ugly word, such an ugly concept, such a disheartening thing to know that reason has left the building and that these supposedly sophisticated fans of an intricate series of books are basing their opinions without any neurons firing north of their spinal column. Granted these are only fictional characters, but I can't help but wonder if these same people use the same stunted thought patterns in their everyday lives. That the hate seems disproportionately skewed toward female characters raises a whole nother can of ugly conclusions to be drawn. I guess some people are just wired differently. It's a depressing thought.

Its easy to understand it. We barely have fantasy books with female perspectives. Most of us are used to read books from male perspectives. When you imagine Cat releasing Jaime for the sake of her children its easy to understand if you´re a woman but not if you´re used to the idealistic honor that you usually see in most books.

GRRM is so good because it has so many new conflicts and interesting characters that most other books dont have. Its also easy to hate Cersei for using poison and sex apeal when you´ve never been a woman and has never been afraid to walk in the streets at night because any man, no matter how weak he is, is probabily stronger than you. Cersei has to use whatever powers she have, and considering her limited wits and actual political and military power she has I think she does a good job in most of the books. After all she is trying to protect her children, and I think that is a valid reason to do what she does, even if most people dont understand it.

[kungtotte]

I don't think that anyone who criticizes something that happens as in the books should "not talk so much".

But in any case, it's all in the execution. We can read in the books how Syrio beats four men-at-arms, but still imagine it that he has done it with great effort and with a certain dose of luck. You can also imagine that those men were lightly armored, ill-treined, and caught of guard. That was my interpretation, at least. The tv version had Syrio doing it almost effortlessly and without any trace of fear, and I wasn't satisfied with it. In fact, It shouldn't have been much difficult for tv Syrio to pick one of the real swords from the fallen guardsmen to face Trant. Instead, he decided to be cool, throw the bad-ass line of not running away, and face death as if he wasn't worried at all.

Three of them started forward' date=' chainmail clinking softly with each step. Arya was suddenly afraid. [i']Fear cuts deeper than swords, she told herself, to slow the racing of her heart.

Syrio Forel stepped between them, tapping his wooden sword lightly against his boot. "You will be stopping there. Are you men or dogs that you would threaten a child?"

"Out of the way, old man," one of the read cloaks said.

Syrio's stick came whistling up and rang against his helm. "I am Syrio Forel, and you will now be speaking to me with more respect."

"Bald bastard." The man yanked free his longsword. The stick moved again, blindingly fast. Arya heard a loud crack as the sword went clattering to the stone floor. "My hand," the guardsman yelped, cradling his broken fingers.

"You are quick, for a dancing master," said Ser Meryn.

"You are slow, for a knig,t" Syrio replied.

"Kill the Braavosi and bring me the girl," the knight in the white armor commanded.

Four Lannister guardsmen unsheathed their swords. The fifth, with the broken fingers, spat and pulled free a dagger with his left hand.

Syrio Forel clicked his teeth together, sliding into his water dancer's stance, presenting only his side to the foe. "Arya child," he called out, never looking, never taking his eyes off the Lannisters, "we are done with dancing for the day. Best you are going now. Run to your father."

Arya did not want to leave him, but he had taught her to do as he said. "Swift as a deer," she whispered.

"Just so," said Syrio Forel as the Lannisters closed.

Arya retreated, her own sword stick clutched tightly in her hand. Watching him now, she realized that Syrio had only been toying with her when they duelled. The red cloaks came at him from three sides with steel in their hands. They had chainmail over their chest and arms, and steel codpieces sewn into their pants, but only leather on their legs. Their hands were bare, and the caps they wore had noseguards but, no visor over the eyes.

Syrio did not wait for them to reach him, but spun to his left. Arya had never seen a man move as fast. He checked one sword with his stick and whirled away from a second. Off balance, the second man lurched into the first. Syrio put a boot to his back and the red cloaks went down together. The third guard came leaping over them, slashing at the water dancer's head. Syrio ducked under his blade and thrust upward. The guardsman fell screaming as blood welled from the wet red hole where his left eye had been.

The fallen men were getting up. Syrio kicked one in the face and snatched the steel cap off the other's head. The dagger man stabbed at him. Syrio caught the thrust in the helmet and shattered the man's kneecap with his stick. The last red cloak shouted a curse and charged, hacking down with both hands on his sword. Syrio rolled right, and the butcher's cut caught the helmetless man between neck and shoulder as he struggled to his knees. The longsword crunched through mail and leather and flesh. The man on his knees shrieked. Before his killer could wrench free his blade, Syrio jabbed him in the apple of his throat. The guardsman gave a choked cry and staggered back, clutching at his neck, his face blackening.

Five men were down, dead or dying by the time Arya reached the back door that opened on the kitchen. She heard Ser Meryn Trant curse. "Bloody oafs," he swore, drawing his longsword from its scabbard.

Syrio Forel resumed his stance and clicked is teeth together. "Arya child," he called out, never looking at her, "be gone now."

Look with your eyes, he had said. She saw: the knight in his pale armor head to foot, legs, throat, and hands sheathed in metal, eyes hidden behind his high white helm, and in his hand cruel steel. Against that: Syrio, in a leather vest, with a wooden sword in his hand. "Syrio, run," she screamed.

"The first sword of Braavos does not run," he sang as Ser Meryn slashed at him. Syrio danced away from his cut, his stick a blur. In a heartbeat, he had bounced blows off the knight's temple, elbow and throat, the wood ringing against the metal of helm, gauntlet and gorget. Arya stood frozen. Ser Meryn advanced; Syrio backed away. He checked the next blow, spun away from the second, deflected the third.

The fourth sliced his stick in two, splintering the wood and shearing through the lead core.

Sobbing, Arya spun and ran.

In the TV show he is striking at their unprotected faces, throats and legs, grabbing their cloaks. So I re-iterate my point that maybe people shouldn't complain when things are lifted almost exactly from the book and put on the screen, unless you are also complaining about the way it is depicted in the book in which case it's really a whole separate topic, no?

Also, going for one of the guardsmen's swords would mean taking his eyes off of Ser Meryn, a dangerous proposition.

[Kaitscralt]

Did anyone else expect Septa Mordane to take out a lightsaber when she told Sansa to run and slowly approached the group of foes?

[Ser Warpechowski]

Still there are things in the early Sansa's chapters that are bound to make readers dislike her. During the Hand's tournament, she really shows her insensitive side (when seeing her first man die, and then ignoring a wounded one because she just can't stop watchin Loras). I'm not sure that's enough to say she's "meant" to be disliked, but I do believe she's quite the monster, in terms of sensibility.

edit:

AH! thank you! I tried to talk about this with a couple of friends, none of them remembered the scene... thought I hallucinated it :D

Not to forget Dontos. She keep saying he is her Florian and when she becomes Friends with Margareth and the other Tyrells she just dumps him completely and start ignoring him.

Not to forget she forgets Arya for most of the rebelion and doesnt give a damn about Jeyne and actually becomes angry because she cries so much.

And not to forget she betrayed her father by giving his plans away.

People say she developed a lot through the books but I say she still has a rotten spirit inside her. Her changes are mainly due to survival. Unlike Jaime, who we get to see as a mora sympathetic and human character.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

freaking double post, plz delete :P

[Bahimiron]

Great episode. I only really found myself missing two parts.

The bit between Syrio and Ser Meryn linked above:

"You are quick, for a dancing master," said Ser Meryn.

"You are slow, for a knight," Syrio replied.

I also missed a lot of the stuff that was cut from Barristan's leaving. They kept in his boast, but dropped his "Have no fear, sers, your king is safe..." and "Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne." I was hoping they'd turn that line into something more along the lines of "I have served monsters and fools, now perhaps it is time I find a king to guard." hinting at where he ends up. I was really hoping to see Selmy kick some goldcloak ass, even though that all happens 'offscreen' in the books.

Also missed getting to see the Hound take the white and say that he'll refuse to say any knightly vows, but oh wells, the Hound is becoming a real third tier character on the show. As long as Davos gets his due next season, I guess I can deal.

Did anyone else expect Septa Mordane to take out a lightsaber when she told Sansa to run and slowly approached the group of foes?

That's clearly what that scene was missing.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Not much to complain about from this episode, aside from the breakneck passage of time (which couldn't be helped I suppose, as much as they crammed into one hour). The few nitpicks I'm capable of mustering up are barely worth the effort because the rest of the show was so damned good. I do wish GRRM had the time to write more episodes himself - the difference last night was noticeable and welcome. I was grinning through the entire show but Catelyn's "would that I could" admonition to Robb made me smile as much as anything because it's such vintage GRRM. Anyway.. /fanboy off

- Syrio was magnificent, and it's a shame we won't see him again (or will we?). The scene where Arya sticks the stableboy with the pointy end was adequate but a bit awkward in execution, which is too bad. Again, small nitpick.

- Conleth Hill gave his best (and most "Varys-like") performance yet last night. His conversation with Ned in the dungeon cell was wonderfully played.

- The Young Wolf impressed the hell out of me last night too. I think all concerns that Richard Madden might not be able to carry the weight of such a role (and expand him beyond what was shown in the books) can be put to rest. He displayed a thoroughly commanding presence throughout his scenes.

- Tyrion's stuff was fun as always. Bronn rocks. I expected the Hill Tribesmen to be a bit more over-the-top, but they'll do. Was very happy to see that Timett and Chella made it in! Chella in particular was straight out of my imagination (for better or worse!).

- Drogo - what can I say, other than he's another character I'm going to miss seeing. Momoa has ramped his game up considerably the past two episodes (which I suppose mirrors Drogo in the book). Only change I would have made to the Dothraki sequences would be to make his wound more "dire-looking." It really did just look like a glorified scratch, whjich made Dany's reaction seem a bit silly and melodramatic.

- The final sequence of events was magnificent all around. The dismissal of Ser Barristan was a riveting and powerful moment. I only wish they'd shown him slicing through Gold Cloaks on his way out of the city, and perhaps that will still happen. Joff/Sansa was great and a nice foreboding way to end the episode.

[Bahimiron]

Great episode. I only really found myself missing two parts.

The bit between Syrio and Ser Meryn linked above:

"You are quick, for a dancing master," said Ser Meryn.

"You are slow, for a knight," Syrio replied.

I also missed a lot of the stuff that was cut from Barristan's leaving. They kept in his boast, but dropped his "Have no fear, sers, your king is safe..." and "Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne." I was hoping they'd turn that line into something more along the lines of "I have served monsters and fools, now perhaps it is time I find a king to guard." hinting at where he ends up. I was really hoping to see Selmy kick some goldcloak ass, even though that all happens 'offscreen' in the books.

Also missed getting to see the Hound take the white and say that he'll refuse to say any knightly vows, but oh wells, the Hound is becoming a real third tier character on the show. As long as Davos gets his due next season, I guess I can deal.

Did anyone else expect Septa Mordane to take out a lightsaber when she told Sansa to run and slowly approached the group of foes?

That's clearly what that scene was missing.

The scene where Arya sticks the stableboy with the pointy end was adequate but a bit awkward in execution, which is too bad. Again, small nitpick.

It was pretty terribly edited. Can't blame George, Masie or the kid with three lines before he gets gutted. Either the director didn't get the editor enough good footage or the editor just got sloppy.

- The Young Wolf impressed the hell out of me last night too.

Robb was great, though he looks so damn much like Jon my non-reader wife was confused when we went to him for the first time. 'Why is Jon suddenly with Theon?' They should give Jon a buzzcut and encourage the kid playing Robb to grow his hair long or something.

- Drogo - what can I say, other than he's another character I'm going to miss seeing.

That scene did a fantastic job of establishing Drogo as a badass in a way even the books never did. Dodging the arakh, whipping out his knives and dropping them, then moving in, ducking, dodging and delivering a throat-tear that would make 1980s Arnold Schwarzenegger proud? So awesome.

[Kaitscralt]

- Drogo - what can I say, other than he's another character I'm going to miss seeing. Momoa has ramped his game up considerably the past two episodes (which I suppose mirrors Drogo in the book). Only change I would have made to the Dothraki sequences would be to make his wound more "dire-looking." It really did just look like a glorified scratch, whjich made Dany's reaction seem a bit silly and melodramatic.

I think they are going to make Mirri's "healing" even more diabolic by having her be directly responsible for the wound becoming sickly and festered, despite being just a small gash. So she'll be killing him from the start.

[End of Disc One]

I know I spend a lot of time arguing with nitpickers, and this isn't a complaint just an observation.

Should it be cold enough in the Riverlands to see your breath? It's summer.

[Tywin's bastard]

This was also the low-point for me as the guards were all in heavy armor - whats the point of your helmet it a wooden swords can send you flying while wearing it?

The point of a helmet is to keep your skull from shattering, or being slashed open, when you are hit. Armor won't make you able to take the blows without feeling them (especially not the helmets), it's main purpose is to keep you alive. Medieval knights often surrendered when they were beaten because they could be beaten down but it was very hard to kill them until they were already beaten (which means there's time to surrender).

[Ser Piggy Of The Baby Back Rib]

I too was peeved about leaving out the "Slow for a Knight" exchange. It's a classic line. I am watching it with my wife who has never read the books and was looking out of the corner of my eye to see how she would react to those lines. Suffice it to say, I was really disappointed.

[Vuron]

Maybe it's just me, but I felt like the scene with the Other just didn't have the impact I thought it would. The scene felt a bit rushed, but I didn't get the feeling of massive danger from the other. I would have liked a quick view of the severed hand crawling by itself. Basically, it was just Jon throwing the lantern and the Other going up in flame like it was covered in gas.

The Arya/Stableboy scene was a letdown. The stableboy looked and talked like a character straight out of WoW. It was like watching a cartoon.

I've loved every Drogo scene and this one didn't disappoint. I noticed during a rewatch that the wound isn't big, but it is very deep. The cut was layed completely open and looked like it went to the bone.

Robb and Greatjon were great. Tyrion/Shagga/Bronn were great. Selmy was great.

Like some of the others, I didn't understand the short clip of the guard waving the torch in front of Ned.

Syrio's wooden sword is not going to knock armored knights out for any length of time, but that is a standard that becomes acceptable on TV and in the movies. Knocking someone out, as opposed to just stunning them, happens very rarely IRL.

Overall, a pretty good episode and one of my favorites. The scale felt larger for some reason.

[Bahimiron]

That wasn't an Other. It was a Wight.

Also, while talking to a friend who isn't watching the show but loved the books, I only just realized that Tyrion's confession to Bronn about Tysha on the road out of the Mountains of the Moon got cut. ...dang!

[Ser Piggy Of The Baby Back Rib]

Speaking of the Wight battle. It happened so fast that I don't remember the blue eyes. From what I recall in the books they are a vivid blue.

[Ser Greguh]

I know I spend a lot of time arguing with nitpickers, and this isn't a complaint just an observation.

Should it be cold enough in the Riverlands to see your breath? It's summer.

Well, it did get specifically mentioned that Catelyn and Rodrik arrived in the midst of a "summer snow" and that Robb "brought the North with him", which I thought was a nice symbolic touch.

Speaking of which, two scenes that might easily be lost in the shuffle but that I thought were fantastic. First, the scene between Robb and Theon where Robb shows Theon his shaking hand. "That's good." "How is that good?" "It means you're not stupid." Theon is rightfully a difficult character to swallow at times, particularly knowing what's coming, but it's clear that his friendship with Robb brings out the very best in him and Alfie Allen is doing a superb job at depicting the character in all his complexities. Second, the scene where Robb interacts with the Lannister scout/spy. Richard Madden truly comes into his own in this scene, and eliminates any misgivings any viewers might have that echo the Greatjon's: why would so many battle-seasoned veterans follow this green boy? Because he's a fucking badass.

[Queen Dorothea]

I liked Barristan dismissal a lot and i think Cersei is just so perfectly done by Lena it is scary.

Hound - he'll be bigger in Season 2 I am sure.

The SanSan scene was really good I thought and I am what one might call an "educated shipper" in that department.

There is one thing bothering me and that is how small the make Westeros look.

They are hiking from, say

[Tywin's bastard]

In light of the complaints about sexual exposition I can't help to be amused at the lack of complaints about violent exposition, like Drogo literally ripping someone's throat out.

One things been nagging me about this episode though, isn't Timmett meant to be a slim young guy?

Timmett clearly intercepted a food transport meant for Lysa. Problem solved.

Speaking of the Wight battle. It happened so fast that I don't remember the blue eyes. From what I recall in the books they are a vivid blue.

The eyes were blue but pretty subtle, even more so than in the prologue.

[Abaddon]

After sleeping on it, I think my main complaint with the episode is like my complaints from Eps 2-4; too much, too quickly. I feel like the show had really settled into a good groove with Episodes 5-7 where the focus narrowed down and more time was spent with each location.

Which, to me at least, is just an indication that these are the places where the adaptation suffers most from being 10 episodes instead of 12. I don't think there's anything to be done about it, unless they decided to start cutting whole key plot points, and I am glad they didn't do that. There's just too much story to cram into a single hour, and it's required to set up Episodes 9 and 10. I just hope that those two episodes don't feel quite as rushed because that would be an unfortunate way to end a very good first season.

Also, the ending was terribly anticlimactic for me, the worst ending yet. (Not the worst scene, I actually quite liked it; just the worst last scene in an episode). That left me on a more sour note than I otherwise would have had, I think.

Waiting this week is going to be TOUGH.