Framing Tyrion

[Ygrain]

Joffrey’s poisoning has probably been done to death but I’d like to have your opinions, if you don’t mind:

We know that the Tyrells knew there was something off with Joffrey from the very beginning, ever since Littlefinger arrived to make an offer of alliance, since he took care to spread the rumours of Joff's depravity. Olenna and Margaery had these rumours confirmed from Sansa, who was later used as a useful idiot to bring the poison to the wedding in her hairnet, from which Olenna took it pretending she was adjusting Sansa’s hair.

– Up till here, a clearly set outline, though surfacing only in retrospect. The only factor never mentioned is how and when Tyrion was chosen as a scapegoat. I believe this must have been planned very early: when you plan to poison a king, you must immediately channel the suspicion to the right person and poise his guilt as self-evident, since a thorough unbiased investigation that might have issued otherwise would poise a threat of discovering some weak links in your scheming. Tyrion is a perfect choice: he has had conflicts with Joff before, and in public, so there are plenty of witnesses that there was little love between him and the king. Besides, he is the ugly depraved Imp, the most hated person in King’s Landing, about whom people will believe the worst without a second thought. His own father and sister hate him and won’t take any pains to prove his innocence. And, the clever Imp he is, he has already figured out that part with Littlefinger’s dagger; he might figure out other things, as well. So, Tyrion must go.

Nonetheless: a perfect scapegoat he may be, but seated far from the king (a dozen seats from the king, and this was again a safe bet that he won’t be seated anywhere close to Joffrey), he would not have a chance to mess with the king’s wine and there might be raised some objections to the accusation, so he must be given a “chance” to put in the poison. So, first come the jousting dwarves, to give a pretext. With Joffrey’s social idiocy and Tyrion’s big mouth, there’s bound to be a confrontation, and tons of witnesses again, to be reminded how Tyrion dislikes the king. Then comes the big humiliating scene: Joffrey comes and pours his wine on Tyrion’s head, and orders him to refill the cup. He takes a drink and puts the cup on the table: at this moment, the wine is still harmless, since we know from the Cressen prologue that strangler works almost immediately. The pie arrives, everyone is distracted, people leave their seats and come to watch, no-one pays attention to Joffrey’s wine. This must have been the moment when the poison found its way into the cup: the safest, and only, moment to do so.

However: while some kind of public embarrassment could have been expected, there was no way anyone could have anticipated such a reaction from Joffrey: the cup and the wine were in no way related to the dwarf incident, and there were tons of other ways how the king might retaliate on his dwarf uncle – unless he was prompted into it somehow. “Such a big cup should be enough to cool the dwarf’s head” – something (though probably less obvious) along this line would be enough to plant an idea in Joffrey’s head, but from whom? We do not know the exact seating but the people closest to Joff would be Cersei, Tywin, Mace and Aleria, out of whom none would suggest such a public outrage, even if the latter two were private to the conspiracy, and if someone of the Tyrells seated further suggested it, they would probably try to prevent Joffrey from it. This leaves Margaery as the only person with a motive and in a convenient position to do so: cuddling Joffrey’s hurt pride, whispering in his ear. Nothing suspicious of a bride.

Who put the poison in? There were four Tyrells present at the wine incident: Garlan and his wife, seated next to Tyrion; Margaery, who came to persuade Joffrey to return to his seat and who left with him when the pie was announced, and Olenna, who probably came after Margaery (my translation goes “Olenna said, leaning on her cane”, which I interpret that she was standing somewhere near, since she must have been seated at a palace of honour somewhere closer to Joffrey, and wouldn’t be leaning on anything if she was still sitting). I don’t think Margaery had the chance to drop something into the wine without being noticed, which leaves Garlan and Olenna, and Garlan would have a better chance to do so inconspicuously. Either way, Margaery was fully and actively participating in the whole scheme.

Have I left anything out?

EDIT: adding a detailed description what transpired at the feast:

Up till the dwarfs jousting, Joff has his wine cup with him. After the exchange of insults with Tyrion, he takes the cup and comes over (passing those dozen or so guests) to pour the wine on Tyrion's head. After that:

- Margaery turns up to persuade Joff to return to his seat

- Olenna presumably follows Margaery

- Joff orders Tyrion to wait on him

- Tyrion refills the cup from a servant's mug

- Joffrey drinks and puts the cup on the table

- Tywin announces that the pie is being brought

Up till now, the wine is apparently harmless, since the poison works fast and would have become manifest. Also, it can't have been poisoned so far, because everybody is watching the scene. Then:

- Joff and Margaery go cut the pie at the dais

- Tyrion returns to his seat

- Ser Illyn brings his sword

- the pie is cut, the doves fly

- the pie is served with lemon cream

- Joff approaches Tyrion again and asks for wine

- Tyrion has to climb his seat to reach for the cup

- Joff drinks; Margaery is probably with him, since she says "we should return to our seats"

- Joff helps himself from Tyrion's portion of the pie and drinks some more

- Joff starts coughing...

[kissdbyfire]

I'm not sure the poison was actually in the hairnet...

And as to Tyrion being blamed, I think it's possible it was just a sort of knee-jerk reaction from Cersei.

:dunno:

[Ygrain]

Well, not _in_ but _on_ the hairnet - if I recall correctly, strangler was in the form of dark red crystals, thus resembling gemstones. After the feast, one of these on Sansa's hairnet was missing.

[Solaris]

LF tells Sansa that the poision was in the hair net and the Queen of Thorns knew it. (this could be a lie but there was the dream about the purple serpent haired woman which seems to shadow the hair net + purple stones + strangler poision) Tyrion getting slapped with the blame was Cersei loosing it (which she has been prone to of late) but Tyrion didn't help himself by telling Jamie that he did do it. IMO

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah, I know. But I think it's possible the whole hairnet thing is a sort of red herring. I have to read the whole passage again but the way I remember it, it would have been too risky if it did happen that way. For instance, if the Queen of Thorns did it, I think she would be risking poisoning Margaery as well...

LF tells Sansa that the poision was in the hair net and the Queen of Thorns knew it.

Precisely, LF tells Sansa about the poison, etc. I don't think he would have told her the truth; I think he's just trying to make Sansa believe she shares part of the blame thus making her even more 'grateful' to him for rescuing her and therefore more willing to go along with whatever plans he hatches

[Evamitchelle]

Yeah, I know. But I think it's possible the whole hairnet thing is a sort of red herring. I have to read the whole passage again but the way I remember it, it would have been too risky if it did happen that way. For instance, if the Queen of Thorns did it, I think she would be risking poisoning Margaery as well...

Precisely, LF tells Sansa about the poison, etc. I don't think he would have told her the truth; I think he's just trying to make Sansa believe she shares part of the blame thus making her even more 'grateful' to him for rescuing her and therefore more willing to go along with whatever plans he hatches

The prophecy of the Ghost of High Heart seems to confirm the poison being in Sansa's hairnet though : "I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs." I don't see what else that line could refer to except Joffrey's murder at his wedding.

Overall I'm pretty sure Littlefinger was telling the truth about his involvement in the wedding : Sansa's hairnet was given to her by Ser Dontos, whom we know was one of Littlefinger's spies, and he told her to remember putting it on for Joffrey's wedding, when they'd make their escape, it's adorned with amethysts, who look a lot like the strangler's poison would since it's some kind of purple gem as well, Olenna straightens it at the wedding and Sansa remarks that one of them is missing later, then Tyrion remarks that the wine he spills is a deep purple. Pycelle also testifies that the poison used on Joffrey was the strangler. It seems pretty clear to me that Joffrey was poisoned with the strangler, and that it was transported via Sansa's hairnet.

Then you also have the fact that LF spent a lot of time with the Tyrells without anyone back in KG knowing what they were actually doing, spreading rumours that Joffrey was a monster. Later in KG Olenna and Margaery ask Sansa what he is really like and she tells them that he is a monster. That seems plenty of motive for the Tyrells to off Joffrey, especially since they were confident they could get Tommen himself, who is not only several years younger than Margaery but also very sweet and tractable. Also, we know from the Prologue chapter that there is an antidote for the strangler, since Melisandre didn't die from it. They could have used the same thing to make sure Margaery wouldn't be hurt. In any case if they were in on it it's not hard for Margaery not to drink until Joffrey has, especially since the strangler acts immediately.

[1234567]

I think LF's original plan was to kill Tyrion at the BBW using Ser Mandon Moore (of the Vale). LF says himself he thrives on chaos, so he may have altered the plan after that failed.

[Ygrain]

Yeah, I know. But I think it's possible the whole hairnet thing is a sort of red herring. I have to read the whole passage again but the way I remember it, it would have been too risky if it did happen that way. For instance, if the Queen of Thorns did it, I think she would be risking poisoning Margaery as well...

I believe the connection between the prophecy (which has been proven true on other occasions, such as the death of Balon Greyjoy) and the hairnet is quite obvious. As for the risk, I agree that it would be too high for Margaery, if she didn't know - and I conclude that she did. Even if she didn't goad Joffrey into pouring his wine on Tyrion, she must have been given clear instruction, such as "don't touch the wine after the pie has been brought", and must have at least partially know the plan.

Precisely, LF tells Sansa about the poison, etc. I don't think he would have told her the truth; I think he's just trying to make Sansa believe she shares part of the blame thus making her even more 'grateful' to him for rescuing her and therefore more willing to go along with whatever plans he hatches

Not necessarily. By telling her the truth, she knows that she is an accomplice in the crime, and that no-one would ever believe she was ignorant of it, similarly as no-one would ever believe she was not private to Tyrion's plans. LF doesn't need to make her more grateful, she is completely at his mercy as she is.

[Evamitchelle]

I think LF's original plan was to kill Tyrion at the BBW using Ser Mandon Moore (of the Vale). LF says himself he thrives on chaos, so he may have altered the plan after that failed.

I think LF has been trying to kill Tyrion as early as GoT, when he tells Cat that Tyrion is responsible for Bran's assassination attempt, and later when Lysa insists on trying to kill him for Jon Arryn's murder, when we know full well that she's the one who actually did it.

[Solaris]

Strangler is deep purple.

CRACK POT THEORY TIME

It was dropped in the goblet when the pie was served OR

Revision of theory, I don't think it was the wine.... I think Tyrion's pie was poisioned.... and I think Cersei/Tywin (with LF) did it....

Joff drinks out of chalice - nothing happens

Joff cuts pigeon pie - nothing happening still

Joff comes back to humiliate Tyrion some more - eats pie, immediately coughs

Joff skulls wine dies a little more....

Everyone springs into action EXCEPT Cersei and Tywin

I ask you WHERE the hell was Cersei? Re-read it she did not react when someone said 'he is choking' she was the last one there, is it possible she didn't figure out it wasn't Tyrion that was dropping dead but her son?

It may well be that Cersei/Tywin tried to off Tyrion and it back fired!

This would explain why she blamed Tyrion for Joffs death, if Shae stole Pycells strangler from Tyrion and had it put in Tyrion's pie, if Cersei were in on it she wouldn't be reacting like everyone else because she was expecting it same with Tywin. I found it odd too that she in the midst of her motherly anguish she managed to accuse Tyrion and Sansa of murder while knowing 100% it was poision... in a sharp voice.

We know that Tywin was in bed with Shae... we know that Tywin made promises to the Boltons for betraying Robb the reward being Winterfell.... Tyrion was in the way for that deal because Arya is not heir to Winterfell UNLESS Sansa & Tyrion are DEAD DEAD DEAD and it was oh so convenient for LF (who probably has Shae in on his payroll) to be waiting standby to snatch Sansa out of there when Tyrion keeled over..... so LF already had fake Arya gone on her way... he KNEW Sansa would go down for the murder of Tyrion and die but he snatched her out of there.

EDIT - The strangler out of Sansa's hair net could have been removed by Shae when she DID Sansa's hair and the red herring is Tyrell provided to us by LF. He was never going to tell Sansa he had a whore/spy waiting on her now was he.

[Ygrain]

I think LF's original plan was to kill Tyrion at the BBW using Ser Mandon Moore (of the Vale). LF says himself he thrives on chaos, so he may have altered the plan after that failed.

A good catch, I missed the Vale connection. However, it still could be Cersei or Joff behind it, or even Varys. Moore has been off the Vale for a long time, there is no reason why he should retain loyalty to the Arryns.

[1234567]

Can't take the credit for it, as it was mentioned on another post ages ago. Also Evamichelle, that's a good point about the dagger. LF has been trying to kill Tyrion for a while, but why?

[Ygrain]

Strangler is deep purple.

CRACK POT THEORY TIME

It was dropped in the goblet when the pie was served OR

Revision of theory, I don't think it was the wine.... I think Tyrion's pie was poisioned.... and I think Cersei/Tywin (with LF) did it....

Joff drinks out of chalice - nothing happens

Joff cuts pigeon pie - nothing happening still

Joff comes back to humiliate Tyrion some more - eats pie, immediately coughs

Joff skulls wine dies a little more....

Everyone springs into action EXCEPT Cersei and Tywin

I ask you WHERE the hell was Cersei? Re-read it she did not react when someone said 'he is choking' she was the last one there, is it possible she didn't figure out it wasn't Tyrion that was dropping dead but her son?

It may well be that Cersei/Tywin tried to off Tyrion and it back fired!

This would explain why she blamed Tyrion for Joffs death, if Shae stole Pycells strangler from Tyrion and had it put in Tyrion's pie, if Cersei were in on it she wouldn't be reacting like everyone else because she was expecting it same with Tywin. I found it odd too that she in the midst of her motherly anguish she managed to accuse Tyrion and Sansa of murder while knowing 100% it was poision... in a sharp voice.

We know that Tywin was in bed with Shae... we know that Tywin made promises to the Boltons for betraying Robb the reward being Winterfell.... Tyrion was in the way for that deal because Arya is not heir to Winterfell UNLESS Sansa & Tyrion are DEAD DEAD DEAD and it was oh so convenient for LF (who probably has Shae in on his payroll) to be waiting standby to snatch Sansa out of there when Tyrion keeled over..... so LF already had fake Arya gone on her way... he KNEW Sansa would go down for the murder of Tyrion and die but he snatched her out of there.

EDIT - The strangler out of Sansa's hair net could have been removed by Shae when she DID Sansa's hair and the red herring is Tyrell provided to us by LF. He was never going to tell Sansa he had a whore/spy waiting on her now was he.

Strangler is a deep red crystal. It needs a liquid to dissolve in. The cream that was put on Tyrion's portion of pie might do it but the colour would probably show. Besides, I don't have the book on me right now but I believe that Joff did take a drink immediately after he ate Tyrion's pie; I'll have a look when I come home.

A good point about the false Arya and the Bolton's claim to Winterfell; however, I'm not sure about the timelines. Also, would Tyrion even inherit if he never bedded Sansa? This was hardly a secret. Besides: why should Lannisters be so keen on giving Winterfell to the Boltons if they could keep it in the family? Was it ever worded anywhere that the Boltons will have Winterfell?

[Woman of War]

Why would LF have such an urgent desire to get rid of Tyrion?

Seeing Tyrion as competent enemy is probably not precise enough. Maybe LF knows something about Tyrion that should better never come up or Tyrion knows something where he himself hasn't yet figured out the importance of it.

Tyrion has Targ blood.......very speculative and how could LF know?

The dagger plot.........not important enough construct such a complicated and dangerous scheme.

It is true: two goals have been achieved that are high on LF's agenda: getting Tyrion out of the way and making Sansa dependant of him.

But there might be something in it nobody except LF (and Martin) know about...only what?

[Solaris]

Strangler is a deep red crystal. It needs a liquid to dissolve in. The cream that was put on Tyrion's portion of pie might do it but the colour would probably show. Besides, I don't have the book on me right now but I believe that Joff did take a drink immediately after he ate Tyrion's pie; I'll have a look when I come home. A good point about the false Arya and the Bolton's claim to Winterfell; however, I'm not sure about the timelines. Also, would Tyrion even inherit if he never bedded Sansa? This was hardly a secret. Besides: why should Lannisters be so keen on giving Winterfell to the Boltons if they could keep it in the family? Was it ever worded anywhere that the Boltons will have Winterfell?

:( PG18 aCoK prologue, Maester Cressen describes it "A dozen creystals, no larger than seeds, rattled across the parchment he'd been reading. They shone like jewels in the candle light, so purple that the master found himself thinking that he had never truly seen the color before." not red..... or maybe the old dude is colour blind HOWEVER! it is a plant though... and it doesn't go deep purple/red until it is dry......hmmmmmmmmmm

he leaves of the plant are picked and aged, then soaked in a wash of limes, sugar water and rare spices from the Summer Islands.

Joff said it was spicy (the PIE)............................ (I know it's a stretch but I cant help myself :lol: )

..................I don't know what the 3rd thing is.............. my head hurts

[1234567]

LF initially set Tyrion up over the blade and I always wondered why he wasn't more observant of LF because of this. Also as Hand Tyrion fooled LF over Myrcella and I think LF is a bitter and petty man who will take over the top revenge. Plus Tyrion was probably only one of the few people who as Master of the Coin, might eventually have worked out that LF had been embezzeling the realm for years (which his accounts strongly suggest) when he was master of the coin.

[Woman of War]

Petyr Baelish aka Bernie Madoff and Tyrion was about to find out - I like that!

Letting the Lannisters and Baratheons drown in debts - A huuuuuge financial scandal about to bust - great!

Wait for the Iron Bank to sort that out.......Arya?

[SeanF]

IMHO, the aim was to poison Joffrey and frame Sansa. Tyrion getting the blame for it, in addition to Sansa, was just a fortunate bonus.

[Solaris]

IMO on pondering 'stuff' I think it is Tyrion's intellect, he is smarter than any other Lannister and LF.

Tyrion poses a constant threat to the "unseen" power brokers because he is just as potent in his machinations as they are but Tyrion has the power of Lannister behind him he doesn't need to subtle like LF & Varys.

Example - how he dealt with Joff in the throne room, he had Cersei's measure, he came to KL with a wildling army so when he kicked Joff's arse no one stopped him. Tyrion knows how to out maneuver and he had the manpower to back up everything. When you have got someones measure you don't have to watch them.

Tyrion stepped on Tywin who although is not as smart, is the power and money and with LF suggesting things to him *splat*. I don't think Tyrion expected for a second that his father would be so stupid as to strip him of the 'handship', unsuspecting his wildling army was dismissed Tyrion saw nothing amiss he expected his father to be proud and smart about what he had acheived and not to get hung up on the fact Tyrion is still a dwarf and 'responsible' for the death of his mother (which is what it always comes down to).

It was Tyrion expecting more from his father that brought him so low. Until the moment Tywin left him for dead in the cells at KL Tyrion still thought that the fact he was a Lannister was his protection and that his father would never let him loose his head. He was wrong, Tywin's ego was bigger than his smarts and we know that Tywin has always felt that Tyrion was the God's mocking him, Tyrion showed him up and put Cersei & Jamie's stupidity in KL in stark stark contrast and Tywin Lannister will not be mocked........

[Dementia]

I can't imagine the Tyrells trying to frame Sansa. They wanted her to marry into the family. However, if Tyrion is killed then they reactivate their marriage plans for Sansa. A dead Sansa is no use to them.